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Jesus4Madrid

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I would say so. But pick up a book titled "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" (or something similar) and see how much more it says than what the Ecumenical Councils did...

Now, I'm not so reductionist as to say that Orthodoxy has expressed every teaching in the councils - the councils were occasional things, triggered by crises and specifically addressing those crises. But it IS very interesting what things were consistently likely to bring forth a conciliar decree of ecumenical weight.

I've never been particularly interested in "dogma"--probably a bias after listening to too many scholastic Roman Catholics. I did Google "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" and came up with a surprising number of texts. Perhaps they are using "dogmatic" to mean "systematic".

If dogma implies that which all Orthodox should believe in order to consider themselves Orthodox, then the Councils would be a good source. Yet a lot of heterodox Christians also claim to accept the Councils. I wonder, thus, if there are other dogma that Orthodox must believe to be distinctly Orthodox.

The Dormition, for example is not dogma. Yet we have a fast to celebrate it. Must we believe it?
 
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Barky

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The text in question, though, is literally everything. We cannot separate our use of language, our interpretation of the world, our encounter with the things of the world - these are immediate and inseparable. To see something is to think about it and categorize it. The brain literally cannot see without interpreting, nor can it interpret without the schematics and frameworks for interpretation which is has built up gradually over time from infancy.

So all encounter is interpretive. This includes the encounter with the Divine Liturgy, the Scriptures, the Church; but it also includes my encounter with my comfy reading chair, the hug I give my child, seeing a sunset, or reacting to news on CNN. Everything is interpreted. Everything. Yes - even what I'm writing now (which is why misunderstanding is impossible).

Yes, that means words do not have singular nor stable meanings. Words are, in fact, quite detached from the essence of the thing they refer to. They are symbols, and symbols are fungible / interchangeable / changeable. Words are, in short, metaphors. The function by making a referential claim, but can't ever quite live up to the claim. When I say "tree" the image that pops into your head is different from the image that pops into mine, no matter how closely related those images might be.

So what am I driving at? Everything needs to be interpreted, from the simplest words and encounters to the most complex. From the way one says "hello!" to one's neighbor to the highest theology of the Liturgy.

How Wittgensteinian/Kantian of you Macarius. I know your head is buried deeply in theology, but have you read any late Wittgenstein? There's a basic skeleton of his thought here, though the particulars fall out of place.
 
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~Anastasia~

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90% of what I did was read. What did I read? Patristics, the Scriptures, the text of the liturgy. BUT not the sanitized version that has already passed through the synthetic process of modernist Orthodox systematics - the raw stuff, in all its difficulty and complexity. And it is indeed very difficult, and very complex, when you slow down enough to really read it and hear what its saying (rather than assume that it is saying what you expect it to say based on what later generations will consider proper theology).

I just want to say you've got my attention. And I would ask questions, but I'm sure it's impossible to provide a reader's digest version of what you're describing here, since I'm sure it represented a lot of time and work.

So I'll satisfy myself with a single question ... has the text of the liturgy undergone so much change itself? I might at least be able to consider some parts of that much, if you're speaking about that. I'd be extremely interested ...

Thank you.
 
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rusmeister

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This is a late response to post #20 that I wrote last month, and had thought to expand to engage all points (as they CAN be engaged). Because these things are still worth saying, I'm putting them up for the peanut gallery.

I'll add to them, off the bat, that if we cannot fix a measure of static understanding to words, then we simply cannot communicate at all. If all we are doing is "interpreting" (differently) then we can't possibly understand each other or have any idea what anyone else means by any words they say. It is only by convention, the Latin for "coming together", by agreeing on static meaning, that we can understand anything. It is only when we agree that "milk" is the white liquid that comes from a cow that we can begin to understand each other. If we miss that obvious fact and get caught up in the fact that milk can be made low-fat or chocolate or into dairy products by human intervention, or go sour by mere passage of time, as I think Mac's idea does, then we might as well abandon language altogether as a vehicle exclusively for mis-communication.

Only none of us thinks we should do that.

*opens a Shock Top, grabs mozzarella sticks and wonders if he could get college credit from reading Mac's posts :p*

I got my Ph.d. from reading his last post alone!


Indeed, that IS the state of modern education today. In short, they commit intellectual suicide, opting for pluralism and its effective denial of objective truth (regarding THE Truth), and wind up not being able to say that anything is really true. In the end, even the Incarnation and Resurrection become merely "personal interpretations". I am all for genuine education; I do not think true education is truly to be found in the so-called institutions of higher learning.

I consider myself lucky I stopped at a Master's Degree, and glad that I didn't go on to a PhD, whichI now believe would have failed to lead me to a coherent cosmic philosophy, just as my MA failed to teach me what was really important in literature.

Now, thanks to having found real teachers grounded in tradition, reason, logic, and common sense rather than modern philosophy, I have no trouble reading Mac. It's quite easy. I see the ideas, and I see through them to what is behind them. Abd what is behind them is pluralist relativism, the enemy of the Orthodox Faith and the deadly heresy of our time, that there IS no ultimate truth, that all words, ideas, are malleable and subjective. Of COURSE I may imagine an oak whereas a Russian is liable to imagine a birch tree if someone says "tree". But there is no doubt that there is something common to all trees that remains constant and at the heart of what we understand.

It is true that "hello" might be interpreted differently because I say it with a friendly, or sarcastic tone. But the base idea of "hello" is constant and universal, as a greeting between two sentient beings.

On the varying interpretations of the Trinity, it is obvious to me that men who enjoy exercising their reason try to comprehend as far as they can what is ultimately the Mystery of mysteries, and that there are practical limits to what we can understand about It, but that does not mean that the idea has no ultimate meaning about which either Iranaeus, or Gregory of Nyssa, or both, may be off. But the Creed is not off, for it is not the expression of one ECF here or there, but what all agree on.

What can be said about those varying interpretations is that people may have used different hermeneutics to understand given ideas, but that by no means means that therefore we can understand nothing with certainty, because they lived in a different age, etc etc. And that's ultimately what you mean, Mac, in this talk of our having to "re-envision" the Faith.

There is nothing new under the sun. Nothing that we need to "re-envision". That MY knowledge is limited is given. That I will "envision" ANYTHING new for the Church is doubtful in the extreme and sure to lead me into heresy.

Frankly, your idea of pluralism can be used to introduce literally ANY teaching into the Church. You can introduce homosexual bishops tomorrow and pluralist unity with Rome the day after tomorrow, and Liturgical dance the day after tomorrow, all on the basis of this view of yours, and your heart will be singing with joy... But it will be prelest.

And it leaves you with no real basis to reject any teaching you actually think wrong. People can take your words and use them to defend ideas they think heinous. Indeed, my own views, under your pluralism, must be accepted as a form of diversity, and you wind up in self-contradiction by both accepting my views - which deny yours - and by rejecting them in spite of your own embracing of pluralism.

Pluralism really IS a heresy, Mac, and NOT because Florovsky or any "neo-patristic" or whatever school of thought says so, but because pluralism is fundamentally, at its roots and foundations, about the denial of Truth, it is an eternal self-ontradiction, proclaiming a "truth" that "there is no truth". Trying to bring it into Orthodoxy is, whether you realize it or not, a denial of Orthodoxy.

I think there IS room for diversity and multiculturalism within Orthodoxy (and I love, for example, that we have icons of African and Asian saints that I may venerate, as it affirms that our Faith is for all, not just whites and Middle Easterners), but not for pluralism in doctrine.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I should perhaps lay my cards on the table, however embryonic the idea may be (so I reserve the right to change my mind on this). I increasingly believe that True Orthodox is actually pluralistic Orthodoxy - I don't think Orthodoxy is contained in the proper articulation of doctrine alongside the performance of liturgy and ascesis (Creed, Worship, Spirituality).

Instead, I think Orthodoxy - and theology in general - is an interpretive activity communally engaged and constrained. It has more in common with a book club than with a scholar's classroom (though both are extremely poor analogies).

The text in question, though, is literally everything. We cannot separate our use of language, our interpretation of the world, our encounter with the things of the world - these are immediate and inseparable. To see something is to think about it and categorize it. The brain literally cannot see without interpreting, nor can it interpret without the schematics and frameworks for interpretation which is has built up gradually over time from infancy.

So all encounter is interpretive. This includes the encounter with the Divine Liturgy, the Scriptures, the Church; but it also includes my encounter with my comfy reading chair, the hug I give my child, seeing a sunset, or reacting to news on CNN. Everything is interpreted. Everything. Yes - even what I'm writing now (which is why misunderstanding is impossible).

Yes, that means words do not have singular nor stable meanings. Words are, in fact, quite detached from the essence of the thing they refer to. They are symbols, and symbols are fungible / interchangeable / changeable. Words are, in short, metaphors. The function by making a referential claim, but can't ever quite live up to the claim. When I say "tree" the image that pops into your head is different from the image that pops into mine, no matter how closely related those images might be.

So what am I driving at? Everything needs to be interpreted, from the simplest words and encounters to the most complex. From the way one says "hello!" to one's neighbor to the highest theology of the Liturgy.

Orthodoxy is the interpretive key that unlocks the universe. Or rather, Christ is that key (and this I assert without warrant - I simply believe this to be so and the rest of how I reason rests on it and it alone; it is my first premise, if you will).

Everything else just flows out from that. But HOW it flows out - in what WAY it flows out - and how it OUGHT to flow out - that is entirely changeable as time shifts and new contexts arise.

To me, if I were to attempt any kind of synthesis with Orthodox tradition, this is the one I would forward. Every generation of Orthodox Christians has attempted to interpret their inherited framework such that it should accord with Christ.

Thus, we may speak of the first generation of Christians as doing this with their inherited Judaism, and subsequent generations with Middle Platonism and (later) Neo-Platonism, with inherited schools of rhetoric (Second Sophist) and inherited understandings of politics (Roman Imperialism) and anthropology (Single-Sex Primal Androgyny), etc.

From early Judaism through Platonism, Byzantine Imperial Ideology, Scholasticism, Latin Captivity (Confessional theologies and Counter Reformation tendencies), Romanticism, Hegelian Philosophy, Husserl Phenomenology, Heidegerian Phenomenology, etc... Always Orthodoxy has adopted these modes of thought and, using their categories, artifacts, tools, etc., interpreted the world in accordance with Christ.

The problem is that this produces varied interpretations. The Trinitarian theology of Irenaeus of Lyons is distinct from that of Gregory of Nyssa and yet both are quite a bit more distinct from that of Zizoulas - and these are all Orthodox sources! And the Trinity is the most fundamental of our beliefs! This is the Creed at its heart.

But Irenaeus and Nyssa and Zizoulas respond to different times and different contexts. And there ISN'T some ghost of a "real" doctrine of the Trinity behind them that we can sort of quasi discern through synthetic reasoning. Irenaeus and Nyssa and Zizoulas say different things - sometimes fundamentally opposed things - but they also say True things, even though they say opposed things.

Irenaeus reasons his way through the Trinity using the categories of Middle Platonic mediation (just like the Gnostics did, for that matter), and some handy anthropomorphic metaphor (also like the Gnostics).

Nyssa uses Neo-Platonic categories (e.g. ideals as summative concepts encapsulating whole realities), but also a heavy does of Rhetoric and Language Theory in his refutation of Eunomius.

Zizoulas uses... I don't know - categories of modern personhood? He posits the Trinity as a communion of love between freely loving persons - basically, a model of consent-based interpersonal love that entirely (100%) depends on modern concepts of human psychology, consent, and personal identity. Totally different from Nyssa and Irenaeus, but totally Orthodox.

And this means they can all say the formula of the Creed (or, in Irenaues' case, something very close to it), but mean rather different things by that forumla. So the formula doesn't provide a "sure footing" for identifying the essence (the Mind of the Church) behind their ideas.

Like all things, the Creed must be interpreted.

Each era has, though, a counterbalancing tendency to view the interpretive project of the prior era as somehow definitive and therefore immutable. In other words, in each generation you have progressive Orthodox Christians and conservative Orthodox Christians. I don't mean "progressive" here in the sense that one generation's synthesis is inherently a step forward from the prior generation's - I don't buy the myth of progress on that level. Generations are just different, not better or worse.

I mean "progressive" (or liberal) in the sense of willing to call into question the underlying assumptions of the prior generation on the basis of changes in culture, philosophy, or other field (e.g. medicine and biology have radically changed the way we see the human person, especially the mind). I mean "conservative" only in the sense of resisting that desire to call those things into question.

Athanasius and Nyssa were, frankly, liberals of their day. In Athanasius' case, quite an obnoxious one. So was Photius of Constantinople, for that matter. In contrast, Theodore the Studite and John of Damascus were conservatives (the iconoclasts tended to have more of the academics). So it isn't like I'm saying "yay" to one group and "boo" to another. There are degrees of liberalism, also. Irenaeus was certainly more liberal theologically than Justin Martyr (who was pretty darned liberal in comparison to, say, the Epistle of Barnabas or Quartodecimens like Melito of Sardis), but Irenaeus was less liberal than the more adventurous Gnostics. Though in some ways, by today's standards, Irenaeus was MORE liberal than the Gnostics (who tended to preserve a bit more of their inherited anthropology, which Irenaeus challenged).

But straight down into the late Byzantine period and beyond you had people pushing Orthodoxy to interpret itself within its new realities (e.g. Moscow as third Rome type stuff, which is pretty liberal if you think about it in its time period), and those who pulled back.

The nice thing is that this pattern holds EVEN for the data that Florovsky and a lot of today's Orthodox systematics rejects. The whole confessional conflict of the 17th century makes a ton of sense. So does the Latin Captivity - where Orthodoxy took its intellectual and cultural context and made it Orthodox. That the theology of the Latin Captivity is seemingly at odds with or uneasy next to the theology of Irenaues and Nyssa is immaterial UNLESS we want them all to somehow (ultimately) say the same thing - that is, if we want a synthesis.

If we abandon a synthesis in favor of pluralism (of a symphony of diverse voices singing in harmony with Christ but each with their own note), then the diversity of the Latin Captivity next to Gregory of Nyssa does not produce dread in us but joy at the Spirit's activity in ALL Orthodox history.

Theology becomes something un-tamable, like a good book. We must continually return to it and re-envision it because we, in our fallibility, continually change and need to be re-integrated into it.

So when someone tells me that "X" should be excluded from the church I am deeply, deeply suspicious of the basis of that claim. Far too often, dogmatic maximalism ("fundamentalism") seems to be the root - if I can just collect enough witnesses from history to perspective "Y" in conflict with perspective "X" then I can say that "Y" IS Orthodox and "X" IS not.

But that isn't how the fathers reasoned - they openly and creatively used their context to produce varied and distinctive theologies. They were, in short, DYNAMIC (especially the earlier ones - the earlier you go, the more dynamic they appear).

About the only thing that seems consistently excluded are: a) those who exclude themselves, and b) those who interpret the phenomena of the world according to a different starting point (e.g. "not Christ" but, say "Torah" or "Mohammed").

In short, what Orthodoxy did with the Judaic Scriptures (interpreting them Christologically), and Neo-Platonism (interpreting it Christologically), and Roman Imperialism (interpreting it Christologically), and Scholasticism, and, and, and, etc. right on down to Florovsky interpreting Phenomenology "Christologically" (so to speak) - this is what I want us to do today EVEN IF it means rejecting the systematic theologies of the past century because those theologies, however normative they claim to be, are historically contextualized and merely one episode in a very long chain of Orthodoxy's attempt to interpret the world according to Christ.

What do I mean by "today"? Well, that would force us to ask what the prevailing perspectives are which we find challenging, and what the phenomena are that we find troubling. These are what invite theological creativity today. Our continuity with the tradition is not in repeating the norms of the past, but rather in imitating their dynamic interpretive creativity.

It is easier to discuss this in the specific context of a particular thing. EG) ethical norms for human behavior are based on our understanding of the human body (or, conversely, we may "invent" a narrative of how our body works in order to use that narrative to explain a given ethical norm). However, BOTH the ethical norms AND narrative of how our body works have changed (culturally speaking) over time. So things are morally permissible in today's society that would have been condemned in the past and vice-versa: we also condemn things today that were permissible in the past. Further, this shift in normative behavior interacts with how we understand the human body and human person, and this understanding likewise changes over time.

Our task, though, is in the context of today's understanding of the body. That's the material we have to work into conformity with Christ. Merely "returning" to the understanding of the body from the late second century doesn't work. You can find attempts at this, and it frankly requires a lot of unsatisfactory mental gymnastics even to get there and then, once there, it tends to sit uneasily. We don't REALLY think (today) that, for example, lesbians can grow male equipment from being too masculine (Clement of Alexandria did, as did many of his peers) or that the "heat" of male seed determines the genital anatomy of the offspring, or etc. etc. Seriously, ancient medicine had some really silly ideas.

Plus, basically none of these ideas are inherently Christian. They predate Christianity, by a far distance in most cases.

So mere return - a neo-patristic synthesis - doesn't suffice. Cannot suffice. If the ancient Christians under the guidance of the Holy Spirit could take the material of their ungodly culture and conform it to Christ then that is likewise what we must do.

Dynamic, Pluralistic, Orthodoxy.
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Barky

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This is a late response to post #20 that I wrote last month, and had thought to expand to engage all points (as they CAN be engaged). Because these things are still worth saying, I'm putting them up for the peanut gallery.

I'll add to them, off the bat, that if we cannot fix a measure of static understanding to words, then we simply cannot communicate at all. If all we are doing is "interpreting" (differently) then we can't possibly understand each other or have any idea what anyone else means by any words they say. It is only by convention, the Latin for "coming together", by agreeing on static meaning, that we can understand anything. It is only when we agree that "milk" is the white liquid that comes from a cow that we can begin to understand each other. If we miss that obvious fact and get caught up in the fact that milk can be made low-fat or chocolate or into dairy products by human intervention, or go sour by mere passage of time, as I think Mac's idea does, then we might as well abandon language altogether as a vehicle exclusively for mis-communication.

Only none of us thinks we should do that.

I want to push here because this is a philosophical claim which is too readily made. It is very easy to show that our sentences are vague, that vagueness is is a reality of language. Once this point is shown, you have two mutually exclusive claims left: either we speak wrongly all the time, or words do not have standard meaning.

If you want examples I can show that our sentences are vague (which I believe), I can show you examples that are commonly used by philosophers, or, if you are interested, I can point you to a paper written by Searle on the topic.

Now, I am NOT saying that truth goes out the window once this premise is accepted. I am, however, wanting to point out that interpretation is a basic reality of understanding any written word or speech. There is no such thing as a "bare reading" of any text whatsoever (or conversation for that matter). Each sentence is a product of context, whether the context at large (cultural, etc) and/or the context of the discussion at hand. This is why we so often battle fundamentalists on taking things out of context. This is because context necessarily changes the nature of the idea or concept being communicated.

From here, there are other directions to go. Macarius' claim, as I understand it, deals with some of the ideas I just presented. However, I am interested in what he has to say about Truth on top of his claims of interpretation and the like. It is one thing to say we must interpret contextually, it is another to say relativism is it's end.
 
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rusmeister

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I want to push here because this is a philosophical claim which is too readily made. It is very easy to show that our sentences are vague, that vagueness is is a reality of language. Once this point is shown, you have two mutually exclusive claims left: either we speak wrongly all the time, or words do not have standard meaning.

If you want examples I can show that our sentences are vague (which I believe), I can show you examples that are commonly used by philosophers, or, if you are interested, I can point you to a paper written by Searle on the topic.

Now, I am NOT saying that truth goes out the window once this premise is accepted. I am, however, wanting to point out that interpretation is a basic reality of understanding any written word or speech. There is no such thing as a "bare reading" of any text whatsoever (or conversation for that matter). Each sentence is a product of context, whether the context at large (cultural, etc) and/or the context of the discussion at hand. This is why we so often battle fundamentalists on taking things out of context. This is because context necessarily changes the nature of the idea or concept being communicated.

From here, there are other directions to go. Macarius' claim, as I understand it, deals with some of the ideas I just presented. However, I am interested in what he has to say about Truth on top of his claims of interpretation and the like. It is one thing to say we must interpret contextually, it is another to say relativism is it's end.
Hi, Barky. I think vagueness IS a reality we meet in language. But it is simply fallacy to say that, because many, even most people speak vaguely, that therefore precision in language is impossible, or because there is a certain context (which really only means that which accompanies the text, both other text and assumptions behind words and thoughts) that that context cannot be shared by readers in different points in space and time.

I do say relativism is Macarius's end, and I say he can deny it until he's blue in the face, but that's what I see. A person can say in long sentences why no one ought ever go to war for any reason AND deny being a pacifist - but I'm still going to see a pacifist. But that's another post.

I'm just back from a long drive from a distant camping trip, and have a busy day tomorrow, so likely won't say much for the next 24 hrs.
 
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Hey Mac,

Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean? What out-of-context proof-texting has Father Seraphim done to try to lead to conclusions that are synthetic? I've only read a small bit of Father Seraphim Rose really, just "The Soul after Death" so far. Scary stuff. But from what I could read, seems like he quoted the Fathers' accounts and sayings of saints. It seemed in context and rational, not the ravings of a lunatic as some try to paint him. He seems like a hardcore guy, but my jury is still out on him really. Could you elaborate please?

Perhaps in this one way only :p

He certainly did like him some synthetic theology. When I think of out-of-context proof-texting of the tradition to defend an over-dogmatization of the faith, Pomazansky's text (which Fr Rose translated and adored) is a primary exemplar of what I object to... :sorry:
 
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Macarius

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Hey Mac,

Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean? What out-of-context proof-texting has Father Seraphim done to try to lead to conclusions that are synthetic? I've only read a small bit of Father Seraphim Rose really, just "The Soul after Death" so far. Scary stuff. But from what I could read, seems like he quoted the Fathers' accounts and sayings of saints. It seemed in context and rational, not the ravings of a lunatic as some try to paint him. He seems like a hardcore guy, but my jury is still out on him really. Could you elaborate please?

Oh I wasn't saying that about Fr Seraphim. I'd have to read him more carefully before saying that, though my intuition says he probably does it. I was more saying it for Pomazansky - a theologian whose work Fr Seraphim rather liked. Pomazansky definitely uses a questionable methodology in his rather expansive and somewhat audaciously titled "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology."

So, if you've an interest in my remark with respect to Pomazansky I can supply additional info, but I can't do the same for Fr Seraphim - I just haven't had the time to read him closely enough for me to make that claim.
 
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Macarius

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Hi, Barky. I think vagueness IS a reality we meet in language. But it is simply fallacy to say that, because many, even most people speak vaguely, that therefore precision in language is impossible, or because there is a certain context (which really only means that which accompanies the text, both other text and assumptions behind words and thoughts) that that context cannot be shared by readers in different points in space and time.

I do say relativism is Macarius's end, and I say he can deny it until he's blue in the face, but that's what I see. A person can say in long sentences why no one ought ever go to war for any reason AND deny being a pacifist - but I'm still going to see a pacifist. But that's another post.

I'm just back from a long drive from a distant camping trip, and have a busy day tomorrow, so likely won't say much for the next 24 hrs.

Pluralism does not equate to relativism. We have pluralism all the time in the church, simply from having a plurality of finite human beings belonging to the same church. We have pluralism in the four Gospels, which present distinctive views of the same Christ. We have pluralism in iconography, which (like all art and words) depict Christ in various styles and with various features; it is literally impossible for Christ to look like every one of the Orthodox icons painted of him, yet they are all True. We have pluralism in the Old Testament between the Deuteronomic History (Samuel-Kings) and the Chronicles. We have pluralism between Sts. Peter and Paul and James. Chalcedon was an attempt to preserve pluralism in the Church by including Sts. Leo and Cyril in the same formulae. We permitted, for centuries I might add, a significant block of the Church to recite the filiqoue in their creed while remaining in communion - that was pluralism of the highest order given the importance of the doctrine. We didn't have a real problem with it until filioquists began operating as dogmatists - trying to impose the filioque on us and our mission fields. Before that, pluralism was the norm and was tolerated.

But none of that would make the Church "relativistic." So you can shout "relativist" at me until you, likewise, are blue in the face, and it will still remain a straw-man fallacy and an intentional misreading of what I've said.

I was even abundantly clear about the line between being "in" and "out" of the Church historically: do we operate on the same canon - the same rule of Christ Crucified and Risen - which is THE interpretive framework.

I guess if I wanted to push your position to an extreme the way you have attempted with mine, I would accuse your desire to avoid "interpretation" as an attempt to be as omniscient as God Himself since only God is above all and beyond all and therefore capable of seeing the whole. Our finitude means that, inevitably, we have incomplete information and therefore must engage in "interpretation" - given our fallability, that means we must tolerate a degree of pluralism or live in a church comprised only of our lonely self.

I don't think you mean that - I think that would be unfair to you - so I do think that you (like me) have some sense of allowable pluralism, and that doesn't make you any more of a relativist than I am - and I am emphatically not a relativist. There is ONE Truth - that Truth is Christ.

However, I will point out that your desire to have words contain static meaning puts you dangerously close to the real heresy of Eunomianism. If you like, I can even post significant (e.g. pages) of refutation of these very assertions from the words of our most Theological saints: the Cappadocians, who authored the very Creed you would claim I am watering down through relativism.
 
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Oh I wasn't saying that about Fr Seraphim. I'd have to read him more carefully before saying that, though my intuition says he probably does it. I was more saying it for Pomazansky - a theologian whose work Fr Seraphim rather liked. Pomazansky definitely uses a questionable methodology in his rather expansive and somewhat audaciously titled "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology."

So, if you've an interest in my remark with respect to Pomazansky I can supply additional info, but I can't do the same for Fr Seraphim - I just haven't had the time to read him closely enough for me to make that claim.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Pluralism does not equate to relativism. We have pluralism all the time in the church, simply from having a plurality of finite human beings belonging to the same church. We have pluralism in the four Gospels, which present distinctive views of the same Christ. We have pluralism in iconography, which (like all art and words) depict Christ in various styles and with various features; it is literally impossible for Christ to look like every one of the Orthodox icons painted of him, yet they are all True. We have pluralism in the Old Testament between the Deuteronomic History (Samuel-Kings) and the Chronicles. We have pluralism between Sts. Peter and Paul and James. Chalcedon was an attempt to preserve pluralism in the Church by including Sts. Leo and Cyril in the same formulae. We permitted, for centuries I might add, a significant block of the Church to recite the filiqoue in their creed while remaining in communion - that was pluralism of the highest order given the importance of the doctrine. We didn't have a real problem with it until filioquists began operating as dogmatists - trying to impose the filioque on us and our mission fields. Before that, pluralism was the norm and was tolerated.

But none of that would make the Church "relativistic."
In your academic studies, would you have any authors or speakers on the issue you'd recommend - in regards to showing the nature of pluralism?
 
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