The pre-tribulation Rapture theory is a Satanic Deception.

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TPeterY

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Did Noah was rapture outside the Earth on another planet during the Flood?

Did Moses and his peoples were rapture outside the Earth on another planet during the Exodus?

You do know God appointed Noah to build an ark to save all the animals right? God raptured Enoch instead. Had God raptured Noah too, there be no animals on earth.

Oh, and He raptured Enoch before the flood came. So it was a Pre-trib rapture also.

As for Moses, God told him to deliever the hebrews to the promised land God had prepared for them. A rapture was never part of His plan.
 
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Oh, and He raptured Enoch before the flood came. So it was a Pre-trib rapture also.

It's interesting to me that Enoch was translated... the same word which Paul uses to show that Christians have been translated into the kingdom of God's Son.

Not only that.. but the scriptures tell us that Enoch walked with God and that he pleased God... which is pretty much the exact phrase which Paul begins the famous 4th chapter of 1st Thess. with...

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

It's probably just a coincidence though and more satanic deception.
 
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iamlamad

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BABarean2, you wrote...."Origin of a False Doctrine"

If a person wrote that Jesus's death on the cross for atonement of our sins that we might have eternal life is a false doctrine and dies - do you think that God is going to resurrect that person to eternal life?

Likewise if you take the position that the pretrib rapture is a false doctrine - do you expect God to take you if the rapture should take place pretrib - when you say it is a false doctrine?

There are consequences to what we say and preach.


WOW!
This is something to think about! Good job, Douggg

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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The point is that the Pre-Tribulation rapture is only a THEORY presented as a fact by the rapturists who receive their information through (channeling) (talkers in tongues ) .Which you are part of. Can you deny it?

see post #608 for details.

Did Noah was rapture outside the Earth on another planet during the Flood?

Did Moses and his peoples were rapture outside the Earth on another planet during the Exodus?


The TRUTH is, the rapture is clearly written in scripture. You can deny if it you choose, but I warn you - it is a dangerous position.

God is a self revealing God. We could know NOTHING about Him unless he reveals it to us. And that is exactly what has happened since the dark ages ended. God has continually revealed more and more of the truth of scripture as time goes on. The rapture is just one of MANY scriptures God has revealed the truth about.

So you can deny it at your own peril. If you choose to be left behind, I believe God will honor that and you will.

You are very confused about the difference between the baptism with the Holy Spirit and demonic channeling with demons. In fact, you are confused about MANY things. Every time you write, you demonstrate this.

It is VERY DANGEROUS to speak against the Holy Spirit. Did you know this?

LAMAD
 
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Douggg

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WOW!
This is something to think about! Good job, Douggg

LAMAD
That doesn't mean that the rapture has to take place pretrib, although it may. I am just saying we have to be careful about how far we go in disagreeing over the timing.
 
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BABerean2

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BABarean2, you wrote...."Origin of a False Doctrine"

If a person wrote that Jesus's death on the cross for atonement of our sins that we might have eternal life is a false doctrine and dies - do you think that God is going to resurrect that person to eternal life?

Likewise if you take the position that the pretrib rapture is a false doctrine - do you expect God to take you if the rapture should take place pretrib - when you say it is a false doctrine?

There are consequences to what we say and preach.

You are attempting to coerce those with a different point of view into believing that unless we are quiet and do not speak against the newer pretrib doctrine, we will be left behind if it is true.

Once you go down that road, you are preaching a different Gospel. You are condemning almost all of our Brothers and Sisters who lived in America before 1860, simply because they did not believe in a pretrib rapture. You are basing salvation on acceptance of your pretrib doctrine.

If you have to resort to this corruption to promote your view, you must think you are on thin ice.
 
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iamlamad

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Lamad,

Here is the history of your doctrine. At the time of the American Revolution the pastors here never taught your pretrib rapture. We know this based on the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons available from that time.

If you want to find the 7th trumpet (last trumpet) rapture, take a look at Matthew Henry's Commentary. 1st Corinthians chapter 15 would be a good place to start in Henry's Commentary.

....................................................................................
A Short History of Dispensationalism in the U.S. and U.K. 1800 to 2014


Based on the older written sermons and commentaries available today, during the year 1800 protestant church bodies in the both the U.S. and the U.K. taught that the 1st Thess. Chapter 4 gathering of believers would occur at the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming. They interpreted the verses of 2nd Thess. 2:1-5 to mean the “man of sin”(antichrist) would be revealed before the gathering (rapture) of the Church by Christ. The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 was believed to have ended after 490 years, which was within a few years of the crucifixion. The prophecy was believed to have included two future characters, the Messiah and the one who would come to destroy the sanctuary. The Roman army destroyed the sanctuary in 70A.D. under the leadership of General Titus. Some of the early commentators clearly indicated their belief that the prophecy had already been fulfilled within the 490 year period indicated by the angel Gabriel.

They were also of the belief that the land promise to the descendants of Abraham had been fulfilled based on the verses of Joshua 21:43-45. All other promises to the descendants of Abraham were considered fulfilled through the one seed of Galatians 3:16, which is Christ. The verse goes on to indicate it did not apply to more than one seed. In Romans Chapters 9, 10, and 11 the Apostle Paul taught that not all of Israel is Israel. This was understood to mean not all of the descendants of Jacob were to be part of faithful Israel. Romans 11 uses the illustration of a wild olive tree grafted into a cultivated olive tree to show gentile believers grafted in along with Jewish Christians as faithful Israel. In chapter 11 unbelieving Jews were described as the branches broken off. They could only be grafted back in through faith in Christ. It was also understood that the only way of salvation was faith in Christ which occurred before his return. Some used the parable of the bridegroom and virgins of Matthew Chapter 25 as evidence that the decision must be made before the bridegroom(Christ) arrives. A free online computer program titled “Esword” will allow verification of the older commentaries like those of Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, and John Gill.

During 1812 a book titled, “The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty” was published in Spanish under the pseudonym of Ben Ezra a converted Jew. The actual author was Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest. During the 1820’s Edward Irving, a Scottish minister, gained access to the book and came to value Lacunza’s concepts within the book. He then had Lacunza’s book translated into English. The English version was published in 1827 and included Irving’s Preliminary Discourse as his commentary of the book. Irving was teaching doctrine based on the book in 1826 at a conference in Albury.

Irving taught a number of concepts from Lacunza’s book at the Albury prophecy conference. He stated that some of the promises to the Jewish people had not yet been fulfilled. (Lacunza p. 336, 338) Lacunza had added the antichrist and a rebuilt temple to Daniel 9:27. (p.301) He stated at least 7 years would be needed for conversion of the Jews in the last days. (p. 316) He also stated the Jewish people would accept Christ as their messiah at his Second Coming. (p. 349) Irving used the term dispensation 13 times on page 63 of his Preliminary Discourse which accompanied Lacunza’s book. The term is only used 4 times in the King James version of the Bible.
Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files

According to early members of the Plymouth Brethren, during 1830 a teenage girl named Margaret Macdonald reported a “vision” of a pretribulation gathering of believers. Margaret had been bedridden for some time. She wrote a letter to Irving reporting the details of her vision. The text of her “vision” is available from various sources. The Irvingites published the concept of a pretribulation gathering within the September 1830 edition of their publication known as, “The Morning Watch”. Verification is available at… http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Edward Irving incorporated this pretrib rapture into his earlier teachings from Lacunza’s book. Many today consider John Nelson Darby to be the “Father” of Dispensationalism, however it can be shown many of the key concepts were first taught by Edward Irving at the Albury conference. This is found in the text of Irving’s Preliminary Discourse which was printed as a part of the English edition of Lacunza‘s book in 1827.

During the late 1820’s John Darby had become ordained as a minister within the Anglican Church. Darby became disillusioned with the Anglican Church within a few years. According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby attended at least one of the Albury conferences. Edward Irving died in 1834. At some point Darby adopted Irving’s teaching and later became it’s greatest promoter. He had become a part of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, although later friction within the group caused division into smaller groups. Darby brought Dispensationalism to the United States around the time of the American Civil War.

Dispensationalism teaches a distinct separation between Israel and the Church, as well as the unfulfilled promises to the Jews and the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Darby believed that both Old Testament and New Testament saints would be raptured together, however later Dispensationalists changed this. Most Dispensationalists now teach that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at Christ’s Second Coming.
At some point Dispensationalists made an additional change to the interpretation of the 9th Chapter of Daniel. They believe the 490 years of the 70 weeks has not yet been completed. A gap (sometimes called a parenthesis or The Church Age) was placed between the 69th and 70th week of the 490 year prophecy. Dispensationalists believe God will deal again with Israel during the future 70th week ( 7 years), after the pretrib rapture of the Church. This also doubled the time of the tribulation period from 3 ½ years to 7 years, based on a comparison to the older commentaries. It is not clear if this change came from Lacunza’s book, Irving or Darby. However, it is an essential part of Dispensational Theology.

Dispensationalists state they use a more literal interpretation of scripture and insist that others spiritualize scripture more than is intended. They have also adopted the principle that Christians have always expected the any-moment return of Christ. This concept is known as “Imminence”.

One of the biggest changes in doctrine proposed by Dispensationalists is the idea that Jews and others who are present after the pretrib rapture of the Church will be given another chance at salvation, either during the 7 year tribulation period, or when Christ appears at his Second Coming. Most Christians before had only accepted the possibility of salvation on an individual basis, however Dispensationalists see the possibility of “National Salvation” for the Jewish people. They take this idea from Romans 11:26 “And so all Israel shall be saved…” This is to occur at some point in the future after the pretrib rapture of the Church. Earlier commentators had believed these verses referred to Jews being grafted back into faithful Israel through faith as indicated in Romans 11:23.

A pastor named C.I. Scofield incorporated Darby’s Dispensational teachings into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible which was published and sold on a massive scale. When people found these notes written in their Bible, many accepted the newer doctrine. Scofield also proposed a plan which divided the history of the Bible into 7 time periods or “dispensations” commonly referred to as “economies” by Dispensationalists.

Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

During the last half of the 20th century authors such as Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye sold millions of copies of books and movies, based on the teachings of Dispensational Theology. The most popular were LaHaye’s “The Left Behind” series. Today many of these line the shelves of Christian homes and churches.

At present, many conservative church bodies throughout the U.S. have adopted some or most of the basic teachings of Dispensational Theology.

Very few Christians today know it all started with a book written by a Jesuit Priest and Edward Irving’s translation and commentary of the book or that the pretribulation rapture doctrine was first taught by Edward Irving during 1830, after a teenage girl claimed to have had a “vision“ of a pretrib rapture.

Please check this information yourself to verify it. The Body of Christ should always be willing to examine the source of any doctrine being taught within their church.
Does the doctrine come from God’s Word or does it come from men?



............................................................................

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

NONE of that means anything. I know what the scriptures say. Shall we say that what Martin Luther was preaching was WRONG because no one else before him preached it? Of course NOT because He found TRUTH in the bible and began preaching that. It makes no difference at all, what people were preaching 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, 400 years, or 500 years before Martin Luther: HE found truth is the bible and began teaching it. That was the beginning of the reformation.

2 Thes. 2:3 Tyndale Bible (1525)
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion


2 Thes. 2:3 Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

2 Thes. 2:3 The Geneva Bible (1587)
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


You see, some of the first translations into English worded that verse much differently that did the KJV.

The truth is, it is the CHURCH that is preventing the revealing, for the church restrains evil. But one day soon the church (the Bride - a part of the church) will be taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed. And when he is revealed, then all will know they are IN the Day of the Lord.

The truth is, dispensations are IN THE BIBLE. In fact, the moment after the rapture, the dispensation of Grace will END and time will revert back the the dispensation of LAW, that is the Old Covenant.

You can peddle your false doctrines elsewhere. We are not buying them here. WE KNOW the truth, and the truth has set us free from false doctrines. Dispensations are clearly seen in the bible. The pretrib rapture is there too, for all to read and know.

When the time times, Jesus will descend and the dead in Christ will rise, causing a great, worldwide earthquake. One instant later those alive and in Christ and prepared for the rapture (Watching) will rise also. At that moment in time, the age of grace will END, The Day of the Lord will begin, and things will be exactly as they were before the day of Pentecost began the church.

You have a choice: you can believe this or deny it. The cost if you deny it will be higher than you will want to pay.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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The point is that the Pre-Tribulation rapture is only a THEORY presented as a fact by the rapturists who receive their information through (channeling) (talkers in tongues ) .Which you are part of. Can you deny it?

see post #608 for details.

Did Noah was rapture outside the Earth on another planet during the Flood?

Did Moses and his peoples were rapture outside the Earth on another planet during the Exodus?​

How silly can one thread writer be? The rapture is an END TIME event, except for Enoch and Elijah. Why would you even THINK Noah would be taken off this planet? He was to remain with his family to repopulate the earth. Why do you even think Moses and Israel would be taken off this planet? God promised them land In what today we call ISRAEL.

The truth is, the pretrib rapture is there in scripture for all to read. God did not put your preconceived glasses on - YOU put them on. There will be no excuse for you after you are left behind. you have been warned countless times.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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What's laughable is the rapturist who think they will escape the trib,when millions of Christians throughout time never did,and this one won't be physical.....Yet it shall be the worst!!!!!!

What is REALLY strange: the two men that were raptured first: Enoch and then Elijah, will come back as witnesses FOR the "trib!"

LAMAD
 
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Riberra

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You do know God appointed Noah to build an ark to save all the animals right? God raptured Enoch instead. Had God raptured Noah too, there be no animals on earth.

Oh, and He raptured Enoch before the flood came. So it was a Pre-trib rapture also.
Enoch was taken to heaven more than 600 years before the Flood.So saying that he was raptured pre-trib (Flood )is rather funny.
Genesis 5
18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him
.
25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed.
30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Genesis 7
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

As for Moses, God told him to deliever the hebrews to the promised land God had prepared for them. A rapture was never part of His plan.
Like a Pre-tribulation rapture is not part of God plan.But a resurrection of those died in Christ and a gathering of the Christians still alive after the end of the Tribulation when Jesus return.

{1st Cor 15:51-52}

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

and
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


King James Version (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
 
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BABerean2

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Excerpt from "The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine"
by Pastor Tim Warner pages 1-4

The story of the development of pretribulationism is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. And the cover up continues to this day. This has been perpetrated along two lines of revisionism. One was to hide the real origin of pretribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christian writers were pretribulationists. The purpose of this
article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint.

THE REFORMATION CHURCH

During and after the Protestant Reformation (16th century), Protestant Christians held to what is called “historicism,” a view of prophecy that considers the events of Revelation as occurring all throughout the Church's history. This was supported by employing the “year-day theory” — that the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days mentioned in Daniel and Revelation should be interpreted as years. It was common for Protestants to identify the Roman Catholic Church with Mystery Babylon, and the papacy with the Antichrist. Since historicists considered the tribulation as encompassing most of the
Church age, and viewed themselves as being in the tribulation, they were necessarily posttribulationists. This view lent itself to a flurry of date-setting in the first half of the 19th century, where the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days (years) were calculated from the Roman Church's rise to supreme power under the Roman Emperors, until the second coming.

THE RETURN TO PREMILLENNIALISM

Morgan Edwards
Morgan Edwards was a Baptist minister in Pennsylvania in the mid-late 1700s. As a teenager and seminary student, Morgan wrote a hypothetical essay as part of his seminary training. Morgan was assigned the task, by his tutor, to write an essay on the Millennium using literal interpretation. In Morgan's hypothetical scenario, he separated the rapture from the second coming by at least 3.5 years. His work seems to be a mixture of futurism and historicism. And, Morgan contradicted himself and made many obvious errors. Yet, his work appears to be the very first time the rapture was separated from the second coming of Christ. Many years later (1788), Morgan published his essay in a book. While Morgan Edwards is sometimes cited as a pretribulationist, his
work indicates that he did not wish to be seen as a literalist, and was content with the typical historicist view of the times. He insisted that his work was purely hypothetical. Furthermore, there is no apparent connection between Morgan Edwards’ essay and modern pretribulationism. Morgan's later works do not display pretribulationist thinking. We must look elsewhere for the origins of modern pretribulationism.

Father Manuel de Lacunza
Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chili in 1731, and sent to Spain at the young age of 15 to become a Jesuit priest. When the Jesuits were expelled from Spain in 1767, Fr. Lacunza moved to Italy. In 1790, he wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in Spain in 1812. Fr. Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's banned books list.

Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of Old Testament prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the “year day theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not espouse a pretribulation rapture.

Edward Irving
Edward Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became aware of Fr. Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it, he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Irving's developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned from his Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, (see Appendix A for excerpts). Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational ideas.1

Irving strongly denounced the apostasy of the Christian denominations in his preaching. He proclaimed that God was about to restore Apostles and prophets to the Church in the last days, and that a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ. Right on schedule, rumors of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of James and George MacDonald and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and Scotland to observe the strange manifestations in the prayer meetings held by the MacDonalds.

The “revival” quickly spread to Irving's church, with tongues, prophecy, and other manifestations breaking out. Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland because of the strange goings on, and his heretical views of the person of Christ, (he taught that Jesus had a fallen human nature). So, Irving moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. Not only were tongues, prophetic revelations, and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but these ecstatic utterances focused on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord.

Margaret MacDonald’s Visions – March, 1830
In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret MacDonald claimed to have seen a series of visions. She wrote down these visions in a series of letters, and sent copies to Edward Irving. A month later (June), Irving claimed in a private letter, that Margaret's visions had a huge impact on him: "the substance of Mary Campbell's and Margaret MacDonald's visions or revelations, given in their papers, carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express." (See Appendix B for the full text of the letter).

The outstanding feature of Margaret's visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within Christianity, just prior to the coming of Antichrist. (See Appendix C for the full text of Margaret MacDonald’s letter). She saw only “Spirit filled” Christians being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, which she identified as the five “wise virgins” of Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25. The rest of Christianity, the “foolish virgins,” would be left to be purged and purified by suffering at the hands of the Antichrist, until they were fit to be with the Lord.

The Morning Watch – September 1830
The official quarterly publication of the Irvingite charismatics was called, "The Morning Watch." It had exclusively promoted a posttribulation second coming through mid- 1830. But, the September 1830 issue featured part two of an article by someone named, “Fidus,” promoting the theory that the seven letters in Revelation describe seven consecutive “Church Ages.” In this article, Fidus articulated the new idea of a partial pretribulation rapture. He saw the Philedelphian (Spirit filled) church being raptured prior to the tribulation, and the Laodicean church representing the rest of Christianity.
(See Appendix D for the full text of this article). The Morning Watch was quickly becoming the vehicle for providing a biblical basis for Margaret MacDonald’s pretribulation rapture of “Spirit filled” Christians.

The Morning Watch – June, 1831
In the June 1831 issue of The Morning Watch, Edward Irving made his pretribulationism crystal clear. His biblical support for the elite “Spirit-filled” believers being raptured before the tribulation was the catching up of the “man-child” in Revelation 12. Irving argued that the body of Christ has been "united to Him by regeneration of the Holy Ghost, 'born of God, sons of God,' (Rev. ii. 27; xii. 5). And therefore we with him are called Christ (1 Cor. xii. 12)." Irving went on to say that, "with this key [that Spirit filled Christians are also “Christ,” and that the catching up of the “man child” refers to the rapture of Spirit-filled believers] the Old Testament prophecies which speak of
Christ must be interpreted, ... and especially those prophecies which speak of the pregnant woman: to all which an explicet key is given to us in the xiith chapter of Revelation; where, though the child is spoken of as one (ver. 5), it is also described as many (ver. 11), who overcame the acuser; and when that number is accomplished, there are still a remnant of her seed, whom the dragon doth persecute and seek to destroy (ver. 17). This two-fold company – the one gathered before, and the other after the travailing woman is cast out into the wilderness, ... – do together constitute the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, which cometh down from heaven." (pp. 301-302).
............................................................................................
The rest of the article and the documentation for it is available at the link below.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
 
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Douggg

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You are attempting to coerce those with a different point of view into believing that unless we are quiet and do not speak against the newer pretrib doctrine, we will be left behind if it is true.

Once you go down that road, you are preaching a different Gospel. You are condemning almost all of our Brothers and Sisters who lived in America before 1860, simply because they did not believe in a pretrib rapture. You are basing salvation on acceptance of your pretrib doctrine.

If you have to resort to this corruption to promote your view, you must think you are on thin ice.
th


If the pre-trib rapture theory was unheard of before 1860, they could have hardly been preaching that it was a false "doctrine" - could they?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by BABerean2
You are attempting to coerce those with a different point of view into believing that unless we are quiet and do not speak against the newer pretrib doctrine, we will be left behind if it is true.

Once you go down that road, you are preaching a different Gospel. You are condemning almost all of our Brothers and Sisters who lived in America before 1860, simply because they did not believe in a pretrib rapture. You are basing salvation on acceptance of your pretrib doctrine.

If you have to resort to this corruption to promote your view, you must think you are on thin ice.
th


If the pre-trib rapture theory was unheard of before 1860, they could have hardly been preaching that it was a false "doctrine" - could they?
Love the picture! :D


Our Gang: Spanky, Alfalfa, & more. - YouTube


.
 
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BABerean2

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Who is that man behind the curtain????

During the old movie “The Wizard of Oz” Dorothy’s dog, Toto, pulls back the curtain to expose the Kansas flim-flam man. Sensing he is about to be exposed, the old scoundrel states over the loudspeaker, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.” However, it was too late for the deceiver. The truth had become apparent. The other characters now knew the true identity of “The Wizard“.

During recent years older, rare, books and other writings have become available online. Due to the availability of this documentation and the ability to share it with others online, the true origins of the modern form of Dispensationalism are being exposed. Those who have sought to hide this for many years are like the old Kansas flim-flam man. They are also now stating, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain”.


1. The restoration of the Jewish nation, to be again the people of God

“The restoration of the Jewish nation, to be again the Church of God,…”
Coming of Messiah… by Manuel Lacunza, 1827 English edition, page 9



2. The Old Testament promises to the Jews have not been fulfilled.

“THE bounds of the land of promise marked off in this prophecy, are doubtless, somewhat more ample than the children of Israel ever occupied… “
Lacunza page 338


3. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

“…then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah.”
Lacunza page 349


That man behind the curtain is Emanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest. His disciple Edward Irving called Lacunza “my worthy master, Ben Ezra“. "Ben Ezra" was the pseudonym used by Lacunza on the title page of his book. It was a part of Lacunza's deception to claim the book was written by a converted Jew named, "Ben Ezra". Those who follow Lacunza’s doctrine today continue to state, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain”.

The “Wizard” of modern Dispensational Theology is Emanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest.

No amount of protest or denial will change this fact. The curtain has now been drawn back
.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

.....................................................................................................

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
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iamlamad

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Lamad,

What are you peddling?

If there is no Grace during the tribulation, how will the "tribulation saints" come to faith in Christ during this time?

I was perhaps a little wrong; there will CERTAINLY be grace (help from above) to resist the mark and lose your head, for that is the written word of God and His will for this time.

Remember, all through the Old Covenant people came to God without the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost. He was certainly here in some form or another, but NOT to indwell believers. People came then, and people will come during the tribulation - after all, it will be the same dispensation: the 70th week - so just like the first 69.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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Excerpt from "The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine"
by Pastor Tim Warner pages 1-4

The story of the development of pretribulationism is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. And the cover up continues to this day. This has been perpetrated along two lines of revisionism. One was to hide the real origin of pretribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christian writers were pretribulationists. The purpose of this
article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint.

THE REFORMATION CHURCH

During and after the Protestant Reformation (16th century), Protestant Christians held to what is called “historicism,” a view of prophecy that considers the events of Revelation as occurring all throughout the Church's history. This was supported by employing the “year-day theory” — that the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days mentioned in Daniel and Revelation should be interpreted as years. It was common for Protestants to identify the Roman Catholic Church with Mystery Babylon, and the papacy with the Antichrist. Since historicists considered the tribulation as encompassing most of the
Church age, and viewed themselves as being in the tribulation, they were necessarily posttribulationists. This view lent itself to a flurry of date-setting in the first half of the 19th century, where the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days (years) were calculated from the Roman Church's rise to supreme power under the Roman Emperors, until the second coming.

THE RETURN TO PREMILLENNIALISM

Morgan Edwards
Morgan Edwards was a Baptist minister in Pennsylvania in the mid-late 1700s. As a teenager and seminary student, Morgan wrote a hypothetical essay as part of his seminary training. Morgan was assigned the task, by his tutor, to write an essay on the Millennium using literal interpretation. In Morgan's hypothetical scenario, he separated the rapture from the second coming by at least 3.5 years. His work seems to be a mixture of futurism and historicism. And, Morgan contradicted himself and made many obvious errors. Yet, his work appears to be the very first time the rapture was separated from the second coming of Christ. Many years later (1788), Morgan published his essay in a book. While Morgan Edwards is sometimes cited as a pretribulationist, his
work indicates that he did not wish to be seen as a literalist, and was content with the typical historicist view of the times. He insisted that his work was purely hypothetical. Furthermore, there is no apparent connection between Morgan Edwards’ essay and modern pretribulationism. Morgan's later works do not display pretribulationist thinking. We must look elsewhere for the origins of modern pretribulationism.

Father Manuel de Lacunza
Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chili in 1731, and sent to Spain at the young age of 15 to become a Jesuit priest. When the Jesuits were expelled from Spain in 1767, Fr. Lacunza moved to Italy. In 1790, he wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in Spain in 1812. Fr. Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's banned books list.

Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of Old Testament prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the “year day theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not espouse a pretribulation rapture.

Edward Irving
Edward Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became aware of Fr. Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it, he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Irving's developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned from his Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, (see Appendix A for excerpts). Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational ideas.1

Irving strongly denounced the apostasy of the Christian denominations in his preaching. He proclaimed that God was about to restore Apostles and prophets to the Church in the last days, and that a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ. Right on schedule, rumors of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of James and George MacDonald and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and Scotland to observe the strange manifestations in the prayer meetings held by the MacDonalds.

The “revival” quickly spread to Irving's church, with tongues, prophecy, and other manifestations breaking out. Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland because of the strange goings on, and his heretical views of the person of Christ, (he taught that Jesus had a fallen human nature). So, Irving moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. Not only were tongues, prophetic revelations, and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but these ecstatic utterances focused on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord.

Margaret MacDonald’s Visions – March, 1830
In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret MacDonald claimed to have seen a series of visions. She wrote down these visions in a series of letters, and sent copies to Edward Irving. A month later (June), Irving claimed in a private letter, that Margaret's visions had a huge impact on him: "the substance of Mary Campbell's and Margaret MacDonald's visions or revelations, given in their papers, carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express." (See Appendix B for the full text of the letter).

The outstanding feature of Margaret's visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within Christianity, just prior to the coming of Antichrist. (See Appendix C for the full text of Margaret MacDonald’s letter). She saw only “Spirit filled” Christians being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, which she identified as the five “wise virgins” of Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25. The rest of Christianity, the “foolish virgins,” would be left to be purged and purified by suffering at the hands of the Antichrist, until they were fit to be with the Lord.

The Morning Watch – September 1830
The official quarterly publication of the Irvingite charismatics was called, "The Morning Watch." It had exclusively promoted a posttribulation second coming through mid- 1830. But, the September 1830 issue featured part two of an article by someone named, “Fidus,” promoting the theory that the seven letters in Revelation describe seven consecutive “Church Ages.” In this article, Fidus articulated the new idea of a partial pretribulation rapture. He saw the Philedelphian (Spirit filled) church being raptured prior to the tribulation, and the Laodicean church representing the rest of Christianity.
(See Appendix D for the full text of this article). The Morning Watch was quickly becoming the vehicle for providing a biblical basis for Margaret MacDonald’s pretribulation rapture of “Spirit filled” Christians.

The Morning Watch – June, 1831
In the June 1831 issue of The Morning Watch, Edward Irving made his pretribulationism crystal clear. His biblical support for the elite “Spirit-filled” believers being raptured before the tribulation was the catching up of the “man-child” in Revelation 12. Irving argued that the body of Christ has been "united to Him by regeneration of the Holy Ghost, 'born of God, sons of God,' (Rev. ii. 27; xii. 5). And therefore we with him are called Christ (1 Cor. xii. 12)." Irving went on to say that, "with this key [that Spirit filled Christians are also “Christ,” and that the catching up of the “man child” refers to the rapture of Spirit-filled believers] the Old Testament prophecies which speak of
Christ must be interpreted, ... and especially those prophecies which speak of the pregnant woman: to all which an explicet key is given to us in the xiith chapter of Revelation; where, though the child is spoken of as one (ver. 5), it is also described as many (ver. 11), who overcame the acuser; and when that number is accomplished, there are still a remnant of her seed, whom the dragon doth persecute and seek to destroy (ver. 17). This two-fold company – the one gathered before, and the other after the travailing woman is cast out into the wilderness, ... – do together constitute the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, which cometh down from heaven." (pp. 301-302).
............................................................................................
The rest of the article and the documentation for it is available at the link below.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

All of the above: "prattle."

TRUE origin of pretrib thought and dispensations? THE BIBLE.

LAMAD
 
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Bible2

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TPeterY said in post 621:

He raptured Enoch before the flood came.

Note that Enoch wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.
 
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iamlamad said in post 624:

The TRUTH is, the rapture is clearly written in scripture.

That's right.

And Jesus mentioned the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

iamlamad said in post 624:

You can deny if it you choose, but I warn you - it is a dangerous position.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

*******

iamlamad said in post 627:

The truth is, it is the CHURCH that is preventing the revealing, for the church restrains evil.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit (as is often claimed), because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

iamlamad said in post 627:

And when he is revealed, then all will know they are IN the Day of the Lord.

Note that nothing Paul says requires that the day of the Lord will have started by the time that the man of sin is revealed.

For the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things that has to happen before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 627:

In fact, the moment after the rapture, the dispensation of Grace will END . . .

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

iamlamad said in post 627:

In fact, the moment after the rapture, the dispensation of Grace will END and time will revert back the the dispensation of LAW, that is the Old Covenant.

Note that nothing in the Bible refers to a reverting back to the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
 
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