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You have the right to be wrong. You abdicate God's sovereignty to His creatures. Not sure why you'd do that.
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Whats the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????
- Thread starter Marvin Knox
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You have the right to be wrong. You abdicate God's sovereignty to His creatures. Not sure why you'd do that.
FreeGrace2
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What nonsense. I've done nothing of the sort. Not sure why you'd make such a claim.
And, once again, just another claim that is devoid of any explanation. Please elaborate on HOW I've done what you're claiming.
Claims without any substance are meaningless.
If there is any substance, please elaborate. If none is produced, we'll all know that the claims are empty. Not sure why you'd do that.
But it's true that anyone has the right to post empty claims.
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Your claim throughout is that God isn't sovereign over everything, and then say my pointing this out is meaningless?
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So are you saying God suddenly has a before and after if he is dealing with His creation or are you saying God uses the concept of before and after for humans when communicating with humans?
It is not just looking at it both ways, you conclude that God is outside of time, then turn around and conclude God is in time with a before and after. If God is outside of time He does not have a before and after reference.Yes. I'm trying to look at it both ways.
I hope I don't go crazy!
I am still waiting for a Calvinist to explain the parable (Matt. 18: 23-35)and not just tell me what it does not say.
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FreeGrace2
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That is ridiculous. I challenge you to provide ANY post # where I've claimed such nonsense. Or apologize for the wildly inaccurate charge.
Her is what I've claimed repeatedly. God is sovereign OVER everything, but not sovereign IN everything.
It seems that Calvinism believes that God is sovereign IN everything as well as OVER everything.
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stan1953
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Sorry I have mixed up you and mikey in the same post.That is correct.
His SE becomes manifest for all to see when His creatures comply with the demands of the gospel by an act of their will. That's exactly the way He intends His sovereign election to manifest.
Eph. 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
"ALL THINGS!"
Not much room there for anything escaping His working.
Of course that includes evil acts as well as good. That includes tornadoes as well as sun shine. That includes people accepting Christ and that includes people rejecting Christ. All things are included under the banner of all things.
Is it a mystery. Of course it is.
You aren't saying that you will not believe Him until all mystery is gone are you?
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
P.S. I'm not sure if you are talking to me or heymikey in the above post. You did seem to take exception to what I said however.
Originally Posted by Marvin Knox
"The idea that God isn't involved fully in both evil and good and has relinquished control of anything at all is a dangerous false view of God in my view."
If you disagree with that quote, I refer you to the scriptures which talk about control of "all things".
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First off I've printed the quotation again with certain areas highlighted as pertaining to your questions. I've done that so others can see your questions in context in case they missed the other post.
Those questions are not unique to you and others who deny total sovereignty.
You said, "The sad thing is that reformed folks just don't see any contradiction, when there clearly is a big one."
I don't know of any so called Calvinist or anyone else who does not see the difficulty here. Having said that - some knuckle head will probably chime in and prove me wrong. If they do they deserve any derogatory names you and I might hurl at them. We won't of course. It's against the rules.
The writers of the WCF didn't shrink from the apparent contradiction. that is why they penned some of the additional qualifiers the I've highlighted.
What we have here is nothing less than the question of evil's existence in a world a so called good God created. It's one of the bigger issues that I address in the concepts outlined in the OP of the "what's the beef" thread. It doesn't go away by simply referring to the free choice of people IMO. Surely you and I can agree that God could have done things a lot differently than He has done them. He didn't need to do anything at all much less devise a world where suffering and pain exist - hardly even mentioning eternal damnation.
I'm not sure we can ever understand it. The framers of the WCF were content to comment on it to make the record clear and then leave it alone. That might be the wisest thing to do.
But my wisdom may not have been up to snuff in the first part of my Christian life. I railed against God concerning this in ways you can only imagine. I've never been shy when it comes to letting my feelings be know to God. Luckily He's let me live in spite of some of the things I've said.
I realize that I am in the minority among evangelicals in my blunt railing against God. The reason that is, as I see it , is that the majority have cleverly (they think) gotten around the problem by denying the truth of absolute sovereignty. But being in the majority has never guaranteed being right when it comes to what men believe concerning God.
I have a lot that could be said about this problem of evil but for now I'll just say that not having a complete understanding of a matter and not believing and obeying God in spite of not understanding every mystery played a big part in the fall of man. We sure don't want to go there. That fact is a lot of what this mess we're in is all about as I see things. I think that's why God left so many mysteries in His Word. It's a test of our faith as I see things. There's a whole lot evangelicals failing the test when it comes to this area of faith in the face of mystery.
There's a certain amount of faith required here. There's no getting around it. I determined quite a while ago that someone who would die for me can be trusted with a little mystery - even a huge mystery like this.
IMO non sovereignty people's (the majority of evangelicals) working overtime to find ways around the sovereignty of God is nothing less than a demonstration of their lack of faith. Sorry! I'm not meaning to flame anyone. That's just the way I see it.
I've got an extra thought or a dozen. I'll try to follow up with them soon. They pertain to these matters.
[FONT="]God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[/FONT]
[FONT="]God the great Creator of all things doesuphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[/FONT]
[FONT="]God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.
The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[/FONT]
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This one will have to be short and sweet. I'm out of steam.
We are talking here about such things as God hardening Pharaoh's heart and it manifesting through Pharaoh hardening of his own heart.
Things like Joseph's bothers (2nd causes) committing evil as a way of God (the first cause) bringing to past His will.
We are talking about God's crushing His Son through the secondary actions of evil men.
That will have to do for now. I'm going to stay away for a while. Hopefully there won't be too much to catch up on when I get back.
I'm hoping that stan1953 reads my posts to you and that the reverse is also true. Lot's of gaps if that isn't true. Long ideas can't be done again and again. This gets tedious.
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FreeGrace2
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Your opinion, only. And since there isn't any post # that will support your wildly inaccurate claim, where is the apology?
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FreeGrace2
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For the record, I do not, nor have I ever denied God's sovereignty. I just see it differently than Calvinists do.
Glad to see that you acknowledge the apparent contradiction. It is apparent, and it is a contradiction.
I've asked several Calvinists why it doesn't "go away" by mentioning free choice. I've not gotten any answers. Can you explain why free choice doesn't solve the problem of free will?
Sure, we can agree on that. But He created what we have to deal with and understand. I don't find any answers from Calvinism that answer any of the questions.
I don't leave contradictions that are apparent alone.
I believe we're all in the same boat on that one.But my wisdom may not have been up to snuff in the first part of my Christian life. I railed against God concerning this in ways you can only imagine. I've never been shy when it comes to letting my feelings be know to God. Luckily He's let me live in spite of some of the things I've said.
I don't see how absolute sovereignty solves anything. If anything, it puts the blame of sin directly on God Himself, which I cannot accept. He is perfectly holy, and cannot sin, cannot tempt to sin. How in the world could He be the cause of sin and evil? It doesn't make sense to me.
If He is the cause of sin, why does He punish said sin? That doesn't make sense to me.
How very true.
I agree that lots of evangelicals have failed the test, thanks to poor training of pastors. Many are just ignorant of truth. Which is why they fail.
But I don't really see mysteries in Scripture.
Yes, faith is required, because it pleases God. But I don't see any mystery connected with faith.
Could you elaborate on that a bit? I'm not sure I understand that anyone is finding ways around God's sovereignty.
The contradiction is quite apparent. What He ordains, He authors. Or, to put it another way, what has He ordained that He didn't author?
Could you put in to plain English the phrase: "yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions." Thanks. I have no idea what is being conveyed.
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FreeGrace2
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Re: 1st and 2nd actions:
Ex 9:13-17
13 Then the LORD said to Moses, Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 14 For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. 15 For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16 But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. 17 Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.
I see a clear warning to Pharaoh of the consequences of not letting God's people go. In fact, v.17 reveals what God's will was; for Pharaoh to let His people go. And v.16 tells us why God let him live longer. Pharaoh was hardened by God's power, just as the Jews were hardened by Jesus' miracles. The more He did, the more they hated Him (without reason - Jn 15:25).
So God did not cause the evil of his brothers. If anything, God intervened in order to prevent the brothers from more evil than they did. God did use their evil intents to get Joe to Egypt, but He didn't cause the brothers to do their evil. He simply knew their hearts and intents and intervened so that they didn't get their way in God's plan to get Joe to Egypt.
I've enjoyed our discussion.
I believe there is a simple explanation. The way God hardened Pahraoh's heart was to allow him to live longer than he deserved. The longer he lived, the harder he hardened his own heart. So God didn't reach down to cause Pharaoh to be hardened against his will, which seems to be the way some (at least) Calvinists see it. God allowed Pharaoh to live longer, so that Pharaoh's already hard heart would harden further.This one will have to be short and sweet. I'm out of steam.
We are talking here about such things as God hardening Pharaoh's heart and it manifesting through Pharaoh hardening of his own heart.
Ex 9:13-17
13 Then the LORD said to Moses, Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 14 For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. 15 For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16 But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. 17 Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.
I see a clear warning to Pharaoh of the consequences of not letting God's people go. In fact, v.17 reveals what God's will was; for Pharaoh to let His people go. And v.16 tells us why God let him live longer. Pharaoh was hardened by God's power, just as the Jews were hardened by Jesus' miracles. The more He did, the more they hated Him (without reason - Jn 15:25).
God didn't bring about His will by causing anything. The brothers were the ONLY cause of their evil. God's will was to get Joseph to Egypt. If anything, He prevented his brothers from doing what they initially wanted; to kill him. How did Joe get to Egypt? By caravan. All of which God provided in order to prevent his murder.
So God did not cause the evil of his brothers. If anything, God intervened in order to prevent the brothers from more evil than they did. God did use their evil intents to get Joe to Egypt, but He didn't cause the brothers to do their evil. He simply knew their hearts and intents and intervened so that they didn't get their way in God's plan to get Joe to Egypt.
Did God cause any of those evil men to commit their act? No.
I'll be here.
I've enjoyed our discussion.
No kidding!!
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It's your view. Just because you're backtracking doesn't mean that I owe you an apology. You don't see God in complete control. That's the bottom line. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with me about this.
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FreeGrace2
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Again, you've failed to prove your claim. And here is just another empty one, that I've backtracked. Where is the explanation of that? It's not there because it doesn't exist.
Let me ask you this: how much control did God demonstrate when He let Satan loose on Job?
iow, who decided what Satan would do to Job? God or Satan?
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Satan decided. But he was like a dog on a leash. The sovereign God held the other end. So God was in control.
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Really? I'm hoping this isn't simply a misdirection.
I only have time for this brief post and then I have to leave for a while.
The vast majority of evangelicals would say that God predestined us to adoption based on what we do in time and space. Predestined to them as well as to me means before time and space existed ("in the beginning" as God would say).
The WCF believes as do I that God decreed everything. That is something you are apparently not willing to accept. But, assuming for a moment that that is a true picture of what the scriptures teach concerning His decrees, what they are doing is denying that what the vast majority of evangelicals would say is a correct way to see predestination.
They are saying that God predestined unconditionally - not based on what we do in time and space.
You probably have a little different twist or a "heavier" concept concerning God's relationship with time and space than most evangelicals. Great.
But I find it hard to believe that you really don't know what is being said in the WCF.
This seems suspiciously like your claiming that Arminians would never pray like Spurgeon layed out - therefore you couldn't understand what he was getting at. Really?
We've been doing pretty well. If we revert back to our old ways of relating I'm probably done here. I hope I'm seeing this wrong and that you really couldn't understand the point of the WCF. I find that a little hard to believe though.
P.S I've enjoyed our discussion as well. I hope it can continue.
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Sounds like me. Got a little arthritis as I come up on 70.
If I could just get access to that Tree of Life again. Not sure how that would work. But I'm thinking it would help with the arthritis.
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FreeGrace2
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What a strange view of the passage! There was no leash. Just one command, which was not to touch Job physically. You really want to call that some kind of leash?
The ONLY limit was on physically touching Job. Nothing else. All that Satan chose to do was done freely with out any leash holding him back.
Such answers as these clearly reveal the difficulties of understanding Scripture in Calvinism.
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