What’s the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????

stan1953

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I just reread your question and my answer. Seemed to me that my answer was quite clear and thorough. It seemed at least as clear as your question.

I went into a few extra details because you seem to have lost sight of some of the basics. That was my charge originally concerning non-sovereignty folks in general. I'm just trying to get you back up to snuff. If you're offended by that you shouldn't have lost sight of the basics to begin with IMO.

I'm a little disappointed that you are starting to get a little uncivil.

How about this answer.

We put on the armor of God to stand against the enemy for the same reason Jesus used the Word of God to stand against the devil.

You wouldn't say that God had "relinquished control" just because His Son had to fight the enemy to overcome sin. Why would you say that He has relinquished control just because we are asked to do the same thing?

Jesus' every activity was a part of the concurrent working out of what God had ordained to take place in time and space. Jesus was (as He said), "only doing what He saw the Father doing."

Same with our Godly activities.

I would worry about your own replies, I am up to snuff, just not yours.
Verboseness as far as I am concerned is designed to obscure a persons actual POV by hiding it in it's midst. It doesn't take huge replies to make a point, just don't follow some people's example of short replies that say NOTHING.
It's always those that start with being uncivil that point it out in others.

So exactly what kind of control does God have as it relates to Eph 6? If we are instructed to put on armor then who is in control of the outcome, us or God?
 
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Hammster

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Of course not.

And such a question is quite silly, given that my view has been fully expressed and anyone should know better than to ask such a question.

What is the point of your question, btw?

Btw, this post still did not answer my question:
"Thanks. The question remains, however. What's the point? This wasn't answered. Just the compliment. "

Care to answer?

Since God can stop sin, who is totally sovereign in any and all circumstances? God. If sin is allowed, it's because God has a purpose for it. So while He may give authority (even to Satan), He never EVER gives up sovereignty.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Please identify or at least describe who these "non-sovereignty folks" might be. I highly doubt that anyone posting in "sotereiology" would be even close to being "non-sovereignty" types.

Personally, I don't think you'll be able to.

In my view anyone who would not subscribe this statement from the Westminster Confession would fit the description of a non-sovereignty type as I mean it. This is not because the Westminster is infallible or that I subscribe to it in totality but because it just happens to give me a statement that will help us here.

I hope it prints out since I am cutting and pasting and that has given me trouble in the past.


[FONT=&quot]“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of si
n.”


[/FONT]
 
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Marvin Knox

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If we are instructed to put on armor then who is in control of the outcome, us or God?

Both!

He is the first cause of the action. We are the second cause of the action.

I work because He works in me.

I will receive reward or loss depending on my free will actions. The success of my compliance will become evident at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

God on the other hand will receive glory whatever I do concerning compliance with His commands. He is in complete control of how He will receive that glory.

His ultimate will however will become evident after the outcome.
His revealed will in the matter has been made known to us already.

Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our god, but the things revealed belong to us an to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of the law.
 
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stan1953

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Both!

He is the first cause of the action. We are the second cause of the action.

I work because He works in me.

I will receive reward or loss depending on my free will actions. The success of my compliance will become evident at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

God on the other hand will receive glory whatever I do concerning compliance with His commands. He is in complete control of how He will receive that glory.

His ultimate will however will become evident after the outcome.
His revealed will in the matter has been made known to us already.

Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our god, but the things revealed belong to us an to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of the law.

Why are we instructed if He is in control. He would just make us do it.
So you admit free will and you admit compliance, but not as it effects your view of SE?

God will always receive glory as prophesied in Is 55:11...that is the nature of His Word going out, but that doesn't mean everything goes according to what He wants.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

This is a very clear example of His will for all versus His foreknowledge that not all will repent.

He is indeed Sovereign, but from the very beginning, He has not always received willing support or compliance from His creation, because, they have free will.
 
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heymikey80

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This did not address my question. What is this saying about your previous statement about the Sovereignty of God? Why do we need to put on armour if God is in control of this world?

Obviously Paul teaches in Eph 6, that God has relinquished control to;
"the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms", if WE have to struggle against them.
Okay, that clearly doesnt square with any relinquished control I have heard of. A company president relinquishes control when he steps down. But stil in office, that boss can delegate powers, hire and fire, and even set up contrarians in the business to thwart their efforts to hurt the company. I have seen it happen. I would not doubt God's ability to do the same, in fact infinitely more, as He knows the end.

I dont see a relinquished control. I see power being delegated to others in the family, and the tools to grow them up in the family business of righteousness and faith.
 
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stan1953

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Okay, that clearly doesnt square with any relinquished control I have heard of. A company president relinquishes control when he steps down. But stil in office, that boss can delegate powers, hire and fire, and even set up contrarians in the business to thwart their efforts to hurt the company. I have seen it happen. I would not doubt God's ability to do the same, in fact infinitely more, as He knows the end.

I dont see a relinquished control. I see power being delegated to others in the family, and the tools to grow them up in the family business of righteousness and faith.

We're not talking about company presidents are we. We're talking about your statement that God doesn't relinquish control IN ANYTHING.
The idea that God isn't involved fully in both evil and good and has relinquished control of anything at all is a dangerous false view of God in my view.

Comparing what God does to a company president, lacks all credulity.
According to your POV, God elects us but doesn't give us the will or the means to do anything unless we want to. That's the weirdest definition of Sovereignty I've ever seen.
There's no power being delegated, it responsibility and our own free will choice. The power is in obeying what God tells us to do. Our choice, His power. Our control.
 
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Marvin Knox

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So you admit free will and you admit compliance, but not as it effects your view of SE?

That is correct.

His SE becomes manifest for all to see when His creatures comply with the demands of the gospel by an act of their will. That's exactly the way He intends His sovereign election to manifest.


Eph. 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

"ALL THINGS!"

Not much room there for anything escaping His working.

Of course that includes evil acts as well as good. That includes tornadoes as well as sun shine. That includes people accepting Christ and that includes people rejecting Christ. All things are included under the banner of all things.

Is it a mystery. Of course it is.

You aren't saying that you will not believe Him until all mystery is gone are you?

Without faith it is impossible to please God.



P.S. I'm not sure if you are talking to me or heymikey in the above post. You did seem to take exception to what I said however.

Originally Posted by Marvin Knox
"The idea that God isn't involved fully in both evil and good and has relinquished control of anything at all is a dangerous false view of God in my view."

If you disagree with that quote, I refer you to the scriptures which talk about control of "all things".

 
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FreeGrace2

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Since God can stop sin, who is totally sovereign in any and all circumstances? God.
So? Since He doesn't, He isn't demonstrating His sovereignty. What is He demonstrating? His permission.

If sin is allowed, it's because God has a purpose for it. So while He may give authority (even to Satan), He never EVER gives up sovereignty.
Of course not. Why would one even feel the need to say that??? Can anyone be named that has suggested or said that God has given up any of His sovereignty? I'm not aware of any.
 
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FreeGrace2

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In my view anyone who would not subscribe this statement from the Westminster Confession would fit the description of a non-sovereignty type as I mean it. This is not because the Westminster is infallible or that I subscribe to it in totality but because it just happens to give me a statement that will help us here.

I hope it prints out since I am cutting and pasting and that has given me trouble in the past.

“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Let's stop here for a bit. This statement is internally contradicted and here's why: if God ordains "whatsoever comes to pass", then God IS the author of sin, because sin has "come to pass".

I'll give an example of WHY the one ordaining is the author of what is ordained.

King David ordained the murder of Uriah. And God held David solely accountable for the sin of murder. David was the author of the plan, and ordained the plan.

If there is disagreement, please clearly explain how I'm wrong.

I don't have any particular problem with the rest of what was pasted. But just a huge problem with the part I've commented on.

The sad thing is that reformed folks just don't see any contradiction, when there clearly is a big one.

If God ordains everything that comes to pass, but isn't the author of sin, then just who is the author of sin? That's never answered.

I believe my example from Scripture demonstrates the error of the WCF.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Both!

He is the first cause of the action. We are the second cause of the action.

I work because He works in me.
This statement doesn't really support the idea of 1st and 2nd actions. Where in Scripture can I find any reference to these so-called 1st and 2nd actions?

I will receive reward or loss depending on my free will actions. The success of my compliance will become evident at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Agreed! :thumbsup:

God on the other hand will receive glory whatever I do concerning compliance with His commands. He is in complete control of how He will receive that glory.
Agreed. And, He also receives glory when He administers His perfect justice for all who aren't in compliance with His commands. iow, He can't lose. ;)
 
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Hammster

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So? Since He doesn't, He isn't demonstrating His sovereignty. What is He demonstrating? His permission.


Of course not. Why would one even feel the need to say that??? Can anyone be named that has suggested or said that God has given up any of His sovereignty? I'm not aware of any.

Do you understand that by giving permission, that's an act of sovereignty? To give permission, one must have the authority to do so.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Do you understand that by giving permission, that's an act of sovereignty? To give permission, one must have the authority to do so.
Sure I do.

But, do you undestand that by giving permission, He is NOT the one causing the action in any way? Permission causes nothing.
 
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Hammster

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Sure I do.

But, do you undestand that by giving permission, He is NOT the one causing the action in any way? Permission causes nothing.

Nobody has ever said that sovereignty means causing all action (at least in a first cause understanding).
 
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FreeGrace2

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Nobody has ever said that sovereignty means causing all action (at least in a first cause understanding).
OK, let's include the idea from the WCF. If God ordains everything that comes to pass, how is He not the cause of what comes to pass? Please provide a clear explanation, rather than just some questions.

And where in Scripture is there any suggestion of 1st and 2nd causes? I believe that to just be an attempt by RT to deflect from the problem of sin.

If there is Scripture, please share.
 
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Hammster

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OK, let's include the idea from the WCF. If God ordains everything that comes to pass, how is He not the cause of what comes to pass? Please provide a clear explanation, rather than just some questions.

And where in Scripture is there any suggestion of 1st and 2nd causes? I believe that to just be an attempt by RT to deflect from the problem of sin.

If there is Scripture, please share.

If God allows something to happen, it's because He has a purpose. It's a very simple concept.

Let's take the Garden, for example. Did God directly cause Adam to sin? No. Did He allow it for a purpose? Yes. Could He have stopped it? Yes. Did He put everything in place for it to happen? Yes.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If God allows something to happen, it's because He has a purpose. It's a very simple concept.
Yes, it is. But why would having a purpose make any difference? He knows from omniscience everything that will occur. Or possibly occur, since He grants permission or not. And of course He would have to have a purpose for anything He grants permission for.

Let's take the Garden, for example. Did God directly cause Adam to sin? No. Did He allow it for a purpose? Yes. Could He have stopped it? Yes. Did He put everything in place for it to happen? Yes.
Is granting permission equal to ordaining something?
 
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Hammster

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Yes, it is. But why would having a purpose make any difference? He knows from omniscience everything that will occur. Or possibly occur, since He grants permission or not. And of course He would have to have a purpose for anything He grants permission for.
He knows what will occur because He's involved. He didn't just sit back and say "Oh, that's how that's playing out. Glad it worked to my favor."
Is granting permission equal to ordaining something?
Of course. It's ordering things to work out.
 
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FreeGrace2

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He knows what will occur because He's involved.
Actually, He knows because He is omniscient. Which doesn't require being "involved".

He didn't just sit back and say "Oh, that's how that's playing out. Glad it worked to my favor."
Everything works out to His favor because of His policy towards obedience and rebellion. Those who obey are blessed, and those who rebel are punished. So both His unlimited mercy and His perfect justice are easily displayed, to His glory.

Of course. It's ordering things to work out.
Nonsense. Granting permission is NOT ordaining.
 
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