Whats the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????

EmSw · Jun 9, 2014

nobdysfool said:
How does one grow in strength except through exercise and struggle?

I would ask why exercise and struggle when God can give you all the strength you need? Why do you need to do anything? Does God need your help?

With that thought in mind, how does one have a sinless heart except he remove the sins?

Marvin Knox · Jun 10, 2014

stan1953 said:
This did not address my question. What is this saying about your previous statement about the Sovereignty of God? Why do we need to put on armour if God is in control of this world?

Obviously Paul teaches in Eph 6, that god has relinquished control to;
"the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms", if WE have to struggle against them.

The scriptures I gave lay out in the most basic of ways the concurrent working of God and His creation.

Another verse might be used as well, "In Him we live and move and have our being."

We act because He acts. It's that simple. That's true for sparrows, demons, sinners and saints.
He says - then it happens.Not the other way around. Let there be light and there is light. I will harden pharaoh's hear and pharaoh hardens his heart. I will crush my Son and evil men crush His Son. I will complete the good work I started in Marvin and Marvin and the Holy Spirit get it done. Pretty basic stuff - yes?

He is the firstborn of all creation - not us. He sends His Word out and He accomplishes everything He sends Him out to accomplish.

As the Westminster says, He is the first cause of everything. But He works through second causes. Some of those second causes are you and me and our prayers and our use of armor.

In a nutshell - you don't have to do anything if you don't want to. See - you and I both believe in free will.

You don't have to pray. You don't have to preach the gospel. You don't have to participate in any part of His program. Not even the spiritual struggles taking place all around us.

Whether you choose to do so or not will relate eventually to your success. That may translate to reward or loss at the judgment seat. Or it may just play out here and now. Don't put on your armor if you don't want to. God is still in control and those demons can only go so far.

You know? Book of Job stuff.

He hasn't relinquished control of anything. Not one single atom or one demon or one hair on my head.

Don't think for a moment though that your actions of lack of actions caught God by surprise. It's all part of the plan. You know? "All things work together for good."

Might work out better for you and I if we get in on the action though.

Just because you need to struggle doesn't mean He isn't sovereign. You do pray don't you? Of course you do. You pray precisely because He has not relinquished control. He is able to make it happen. He is sovereign.

Praying and overcoming is an awful lot like putting on your armor. It makes things happen. Things that God planned all along to happen by the way.

You'd probably say that He relinquished control over your health since you are involved in choices concerning it. None the less every day He has ordained for you to live will come to pass and not one extra. He is in complete control.

Well - enough for now!

But regarding your asking why - my ability to tell you why has no bearing on whether God said it. I struggle through asking and through study to know why. But first I believe what He says. Then I figure out why.

Hammster · Jun 10, 2014

Hammster · Jun 10, 2014

stan1953 said:
This did not address my question. What is this saying about your previous statement about the Sovereignty of God? Why do we need to put on armour if God is in control of this world?
You said:

Obviously Paul teaches in Eph 6, that God has relinquished control to;
"the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms", if WE have to struggle against them.

Before giving accusing God of relinquishing authority, we should read this:

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (Colossians 2:13-15 ESV)

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2014

Hammster said:
Nm

Code for something? Like Newton meters?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2014

Hammster said:
Before giving accusing God of relinquishing authority, we should read this:

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (Colossians 2:13-15 ESV)

This has nothing to do with the issue. When God created mankind, He gave man authority over His creation.

Gen 1:26-31
Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth. 29Then God said, Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food; and it was so. 31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

As if that isn't enough proof, let's review Psa 8:4-9
4 What is man that You take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?
5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen,
And also the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD, our Lord,
How majestic is Your name in all the earth!

Which was quoted by the writer of Hebrews 2:5-8
5For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. 6But one has testified somewhere, saying,
What is man, that You remember him?
Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
7 You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

Your view of God's "total" sovereignty doesn't have a leg to stand on.

God, in His perfect sovereignty, has delegated much responsibility to mankind.

In no way did this lessen His sovereignty. But apparently RT doesn't understand this.

Hammster · Jun 10, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
Code for something? Like Newton meters?

Common internet abbreviation for "never mind".

Hammster · Jun 10, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
This has nothing to do with the issue. When God created mankind, He gave man authority over His creation.

Gen 1:26-31
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

As if that isn't enough proof, let's review Psa 8:4-9
4 What is man that You take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?
5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen,
And also the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD, our Lord,
How majestic is Your name in all the earth!

Which was quoted by the writer of Hebrews 2:5-8
5For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. 6But one has testified somewhere, saying,
“What is man, that You remember him?
Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
7 “You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

Your view of God's "total" sovereignty doesn't have a leg to stand on.

God, in His perfect sovereignty, has delegated much responsibility to mankind.

In no way did this lessen His sovereignty. But apparently RT doesn't understand this.

It's total sovereignty to delegate authority. Sovereignty and authority aren't the same. Although authority is part of total sovereignty, the reverse isn't true.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2014

Hammster said:
It's total sovereignty to delegate authority. Sovereignty and authority aren't the same. Although authority is part of total sovereignty, the reverse isn't true.

Sure. Sowhat's the point. God has given to mankind rulership, as in making decisions, etc.

We see that God gave to Satan completely free choice in his attempt to destroy Job, twice. God only gave him 1 limitation in each event. What he did, he freely chose to do. iow, God didn't tell Satan how to torture Job. Satan figured it out all by himself.

Hammster · Jun 10, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. Sowhat's the point. God has given to mankind rulership, as in making decisions, etc.

We see that God gave to Satan completely free choice in his attempt to destroy Job, twice. God only gave him 1 limitation in each event. What he did, he freely chose to do. iow, God didn't tell Satan how to torture Job. Satan figured it out all by himself.

Thanks for demonstrating the difference between authority and sovereignty. Couldn't have done it better myself.

bling · Jun 10, 2014

Marvin Knox said:
Marvin Knox said:

My head is spinning!

They tell me that there have been a couple of physicists who went crazy thinking about infinity. I suspect they were well on their way before they got to thinking about infinity. But the subject of time is a heavy thing to think about as are other aspects of an "infinite" God.

Click to expand...

I am not trying to hurt you, but you really brought the subject up by wondering why God is not a monster if He knows the future. God would be a monster if the future He knew was also His future. The answer lies in: how God knows our future thus the need to understand time as it relates to God.

Of course we know that God isn't bound by time. But He is and always has been able to think in time relationships. He is also the one who uses terms like; "in the beginning", "before the foundation of the world",and such.

Click to expand...

Was that Gods beginning or mans beginning God communicated to man?

Just because God communicates to man using mans time references does not mean they are Gods limiting time references.

The very use of the terms pre-destination and foreknowledge shows the concept of an even that took place (or is it is taking place???) one before the other.

Click to expand...

They are taking place for us on our time line before or after, but God is not limited to our little time line.

I believe it is clear that (to use anthropomorphic terminology) there was a time when God had not created anything and a time after He created them. That includes folks who will eventually end up in Hell. He didn't need to do it. He could have done an "infinite" number of other things and "chose" not to do them but do this thing instead.

Click to expand...

Man is limited to our time line and God will communicate to man using mans references, but it is not clear what limits time puts on God. You say: God isn't bound by time and then turn around and say: a time after He created them, yet God is not limited by time so there would be no before or after for God in respect to our time frame. We have a God given before and after, but can you return the favor and give God a before and after?

Are you trying to have it both ways?

bling · Jun 10, 2014

Marvin Knox said:
This is for no one in particular.

My not providing a scripture that we can dissect here concerning SE isn't for lack of scriptures. It's just that they have all been trotted out by the Calvinists over and over again. Someone then trots out their explanation of how they only refer to service, the fine differences of election vs. choosing etc. etc. etc. In some of these cases it is all very unique and clever. It's even got me investigating my beliefs at times. That's a good thing IMO.

But why should we retry the case again and again and again. I invite everyone here to look through the soteriology forum and look at it from both sides. My lack of wanting to debate the issue in great detail is just because everyone has heard it all before. I'd like to cut a little new ground if possible.

Say what you will about it. Everyone here can assume what they want about what my arguments might be. You will probably be right in 80% of it. Everyone can assume what others would say in rebuttal. They'd probably be right in at least 80% of their assumptions.

The charge is made again and again, "You can't prove that." Let's hear it one more time and then leave it alone please.

I can almost hear the come back to why saying let's leave it alone is not being guided by scripture or being afraid to debate from scripture only- just going on my opinion etc. . Let's hear that also. Why not?

Then maybe we cut a little new ground.

If you really want to tread new ground listen to some Calvin explanations to this parable:

(RSV) Matt. 18: 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; 25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything. 27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, Pay what you owe. 29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, Have patience with me, and I will pay you. 30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

They are quick to tell you what it does not say and mean, although that is what it is saying.

They also say the Lord is not representing God, by ignoring verse 35 and verse 23.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2014

Hammster said:
Thanks for demonstrating the difference between authority and sovereignty. Couldn't have done it better myself.

Thanks. The question remains, however. What's the point? This wasn't answered. Just the compliment.

No one is arguing that God isn't sovereign, though it seems many Calvinists want to lay that blame on non Calvinists.

The problem is that Calvinist portray God as the One who determines all outcomes, insinuating that all choices and decisions are His, which they are not.

God permits man and angels the freedom to think and act apart from His will or desire.

Unless one wants to take the ridiculous view that God's desire is for many to sin and rebel against Him. How absurd.

Why would God desire/cause men to rebel all the while warning men of the consequences of such rebellion? Insanity!

Marvin Knox · Jun 10, 2014

bling

Man is limited to our time line and God will communicate to man using man’s references, but it is not clear what limits time puts on God. You say: “God isn't bound by time” and then turn around and say: “a time after He created them”, yet God is not limited by time so there would be no before or after for God in respect to our time frame. We have a God given before and after, but can you return the favor and give God a before and after?

No.

Not unless God is dealing with His creation.

Are you trying to have it both ways?

Yes. I'm trying to look at it both ways.

I hope I don't go crazy!

Bling also said,
“If you really want to tread new ground listen to some “Calvin” explanations to this parable: …………………………………………………

They are quick to tell you what it does not say and mean, although that is what it is saying."

I wouldn’t be surprised by what anyone on either side of things would say when he has a pet axe to grind on an issue.

Hammster · Jun 10, 2014

FreeGrace2 said:
Thanks. The question remains, however. What's the point? This wasn't answered. Just the compliment.

No one is arguing that God isn't sovereign, though it seems many Calvinists want to lay that blame on non Calvinists.

The problem is that Calvinist portray God as the One who determines all outcomes, insinuating that all choices and decisions are His, which they are not.

God permits man and angels the freedom to think and act apart from His will or desire.

Unless one wants to take the ridiculous view that God's desire is for many to sin and rebel against Him. How absurd.

Why would God desire/cause men to rebel all the while warning men of the consequences of such rebellion? Insanity!

Do you think God is powerless to stop sin?

stan1953 · Jun 10, 2014

Marvin Knox said:
The scriptures I gave lay out in the most basic of ways the concurrent working of God and His creation.

Another verse might be used as well, "In Him we live and move and have our being."

We act because He acts. It's that simple. That's true for sparrows, demons, sinners and saints.
He says - then it happens.Not the other way around. Let there be light and there is light. I will harden pharaoh's hear and pharaoh hardens his heart. I will crush my Son and evil men crush His Son. I will complete the good work I started in Marvin and Marvin and the Holy Spirit get it done. Pretty basic stuff - yes?

He is the firstborn of all creation - not us. He sends His Word out and He accomplishes everything He sends Him out to accomplish.

As the Westminster says, He is the first cause of everything. But He works through second causes. Some of those second causes are you and me and our prayers and our use of armor.

In a nutshell - you don't have to do anything if you don't want to. See - you and I both believe in free will.

You don't have to pray. You don't have to preach the gospel. You don't have to participate in any part of His program. Not even the spiritual struggles taking place all around us.

Whether you choose to do so or not will relate eventually to your success. That may translate to reward or loss at the judgment seat. Or it may just play out here and now. Don't put on your armor if you don't want to. God is still in control and those demons can only go so far.

You know? Book of Job stuff.

He hasn't relinquished control of anything. Not one single atom or one demon or one hair on my head.

Don't think for a moment though that your actions of lack of actions caught God by surprise. It's all part of the plan. You know? "All things work together for good."

Might work out better for you and I if we get in on the action though.

Just because you need to struggle doesn't mean He isn't sovereign. You do pray don't you? Of course you do. You pray precisely because He has not relinquished control. He is able to make it happen. He is sovereign.

Praying and overcoming is an awful lot like putting on your armor. It makes things happen. Things that God planned all along to happen by the way.

You'd probably say that He relinquished control over your health since you are involved in choices concerning it. None the less every day He has ordained for you to live will come to pass and not one extra. He is in complete control.

Well - enough for now!

But regarding your asking why - my ability to tell you why has no bearing on whether God said it. I struggle through asking and through study to know why. But first I believe what He says. Then I figure out why.

Another non-answer. I'm pretty sure my question was pretty clear and straight forward.

nobdysfool · Jun 10, 2014

EmSw said:
I would ask why exercise and struggle when God can give you all the strength you need? Why do you need to do anything? Does God need your help?

No, we need God's help. If you can't grasp what I'm saying, please say so.

With that thought in mind, how does one have a sinless heart except he remove the sins?

If a man can removes sins from his heart and achieve a sinless heart, he does not need Christ. Are there any such men? Are you such a man?

Marvin Knox · Jun 10, 2014

stan1953 said:
Another non-answer. I'm pretty sure my question was pretty clear and straight forward.

I just reread your question and my answer. Seemed to me that my answer was quite clear and thorough. It seemed at least as clear as your question.

I went into a few extra details because you seem to have lost sight of some of the basics. That was my charge originally concerning non-sovereignty folks in general. I'm just trying to get you back up to snuff. If you're offended by that you shouldn't have lost sight of the basics to begin with IMO.

I'm a little disappointed that you are starting to get a little uncivil.

How about this answer.

We put on the armor of God to stand against the enemy for the same reason Jesus used the Word of God to stand against the devil.

You wouldn't say that God had "relinquished control" just because His Son had to fight the enemy to overcome sin. Why would you say that He has relinquished control just because we are asked to do the same thing?

Jesus' every activity was a part of the concurrent working out of what God had ordained to take place in time and space. Jesus was (as He said), "only doing what He saw the Father doing."

Same with our Godly activities.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2014

Hammster said:
Do you think God is powerless to stop sin?

Of course not.

And such a question is quite silly, given that my view has been fully expressed and anyone should know better than to ask such a question.

What is the point of your question, btw?

Btw, this post still did not answer my question:
"Thanks. The question remains, however. What's the point? This wasn't answered. Just the compliment. "

Care to answer?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2014

Marvin Knox said:
I just reread your question and my answer. Seemed to me that my answer was quite clear and thorough. It seemed at least as clear as your question.

I went into a few extra details because you seem to have lost sight of some of the basics. That was my charge originally concerning non-sovereignty folks in general.

Please identify or at least describe who these "non-sovereignty folks" might be. I highly doubt that anyone posting in "sotereiology" would be even close to being "non-sovereignty" types.

Personally, I don't think you'll be able to.

Whats the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????

White Horse Rider

Senior Veteran

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Senior Veteran

Psalm 144:1

Regular Member

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Psalm 144:1

Well-Known Member

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Whats the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????