Are Gentiles God's chosen people?

Lion King said:

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

God's plan has already succeeded.

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Well your reply has nothing to do with my post (which you're supposedly replying to), but you don't care.

I'm a little surprised that our Rabbinic representatives on the forum haven't chimed in with the answer I was taught when raised in RJism.

"Chosen for what?"

Jews are God's chosen people for specific purposes (received the preserve the Torah, be the birthplace of the Messiah etc)- Gentile nations are also chosen for other things- whether it be science, exploration, to be God's weapon for a time or any one of hundreds of other callings from God.

The issue is that Gentiles can now, and always could, join up with God's chosen in His mission on Earth. Some of God's chosen miss their calling as the people of God, and others from elsewhere join His calling.

It's really not that complicated.

Hoshiyya said:

God didn't invalidate his covenant. He said "not even if heaven and earth pass away" and heaven and earth have not passed away. Who can trust a God who revokes his own laws?
Maybe one day soon he says "like Judaism was abrogated by Christianity, likewise I now abrogate Christianity with Islam or Mormonism or some new religion."

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If the problem is cancelling Torah obligations, heaven and earth will pass away.

Revelation 21:1 NKJV
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

I'll still trust God, even when heaven and earth pass away.

Lion King said:

As the title states, do you guys believe that Gentiles (together with Jews) are God's chosen people?

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Here's a curiosity that I've wondered about for a little while now.
Given how long the human race has lived on the earth, at our most primitive and unto our evolution to our present state, why is it that the master creator of all that exists waited for millions of years and chose a culture that had only been present on earth for a few thousand so as to communicate his message of delivery from the human condition and let people know he was there?

I think considering that question first allows us to fully investigate the other one about chosen people. Especially when God created all people. How would a supreme being express the egoism to have favorites?

Sunshine Locket said:

Here's a curiosity that I've wondered about for a little while now.
Given how long the human race has lived on the earth, at our most primitive and unto our evolution to our present state, why is it that the master creator of all that exists waited for millions of years and chose a culture that had only been present on earth for a few thousand so as to communicate his message of delivery from the human condition and let people know he was there?

I think considering that question first allows us to fully investigate the other one about chosen people. Especially when God created all people. How would a supreme being express the egoism to have favorites?

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It's not about favorites, it's about promises, and plans.

Secondly, God is eternal, so time and waiting don't bother him as much as us.

Lion King said:

As the title states, do you guys believe that Gentiles (together with Jews) are God's chosen people?

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Nvm

BetaChristian said:

If the problem is cancelling Torah obligations, heaven and earth will pass away.

Revelation 21:1 NKJV
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

I'll still trust God, even when heaven and earth pass away.

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I think it means "not even if heaven and earth pass away" rather than denoting a time limit . . . just like "cat's got your tongue" is not literal, but has to be understood in context as an expression. Scripture also says "let the dead bury the dead" and other things which need to be understood in context.

Hoshiyya said:

I think it means "not even if heaven and earth pass away" rather than denoting a time limit . . . just like "cat's got your tongue" is not literal, but has to be understood in context as an expression. Scripture also says "let the dead bury the dead" and other things which need to be understood in context.

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Matt 5:17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Well, it just seems like the context warrants a belief that it's about a specific time...

"not even until all is accomplished"... I just don't read it that way.

Lion King said:

So, only the Jews can be called God's people?

Do you believe the words of the prophets Hosea and Paul to be true- that Gentiles are now God's people?


What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.” - Romans 9:22-26

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Whoops, I really wasn't thinking about it in a NT context.
I was thinking of the aspect held in the OT about the role of Israel.

I Peter 2:9-10 NKJV

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

So, I retract my earlier statement. You're right...

Well then again, not all Gentiles are chosen inherently

Sunshine Locket said:

Here's a curiosity that I've wondered about for a little while now.
Given how long the human race has lived on the earth, at our most primitive and unto our evolution to our present state, why is it that the master creator of all that exists waited for millions of years and chose a culture that had only been present on earth for a few thousand so as to communicate his message of delivery from the human condition and let people know he was there?

I think considering that question first allows us to fully investigate the other one about chosen people. Especially when God created all people. How would a supreme being express the egoism to have favorites?

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Allow me to reiterate what I said above.

The matter is how you define "chosen". The question is "chosen for what?"

The Jews are chosen for a purpose, other nations for other purposes and so forth. God chose the Jews for a specific, holy purpose. Not as "favorites" as if he is choosing a cake in bakery that looks more delicious than another. All humans are equal before God- but we all have different roles. God's choosing of the Jews was to hear, preserve and announce His word and bring forth the Messiah. Indeed, by Divine preservation and providence God has assisted and protected the Jews for the mission He chose the Jews for and that could be interpreted as favoritism, but the fact is that God is choosing others to join in that mission even now but the mission has always been difficult, dangerous and painful. Other nations and individuals have been chosen by God as well for whatever their task has been.

It's not about favorites, superiority or anything like that. It's about task, mission, vocation.

Lion King said:

I take it you don't hold the New Testament as being inspired by God?



Does one have eternal life if they reject our LORD Jesus Christ?



David broke God's commands, yet God called him a man after His own heart.
Abraham broke God's commands, yet God called Him a friend.
Moses broke God's commands, yet God called him a faithful servant.

Why do you think that is?

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"I take it you don't hold the New Testament as being inspired by God? "

I'm saying the exact opposite. Traditional Christianity makes up whatever beliefs it wants, regardless of God's word.


"David broke God's commands, yet God called him a man after His own heart.
Abraham broke God's commands, yet God called Him a friend.
Moses broke God's commands, yet God called him a faithful servant.
Why do you think that is?"

Because they were good Protestants who thought that mentally affirming certain theories were enough to merit eternal life, regardless of lifestyle ?

Seriously though, it is because they trusted God and tried to keep his laws and overall kept them most of the time. Their faith doesn't matter if it is dead, as James says - dead faith is no faith. True, living faith expresses itself in Torah. Again Torah is the point, the conclusion: Fear God and keep his commandments, in Solomon's words. Are you wiser than him?


" Does one have eternal life if they reject our LORD Jesus Christ?"

Why would anybody be given eternal life, if not to do Mitzvot ?

(I previously pointed out that most people and perhaps you as well do believe in eternal life outside of Yeshua though - like Christians, you believe the devil and the sinners etc will live forever being tortured in hell right ? You didn't answer last I brought it up.)

BetaChristian said:

Matt 5:17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Well, it just seems like the context warrants a belief that it's about a specific time...

"not even until all is accomplished"... I just don't read it that way.

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Your translation there is kind of bad, but maybe that's why you chose it. Anyway, if you don't believe in the need to keep Torah you are on the wrong forum I think.

Lion King said:

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Matthew 25:41

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The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42

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Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

How do you interpret those passages above?



The correct answer would be REPENTANCE.

All those people I mentioned earlier repented of their sins and turned back to God, thus God is not ashamed to call them His own.



No offense, but I don't think you know what "eternal life" means. Only those who believe in Christ are resurrected unto everlasting life. There is no life outside Christ. If one does not believe in Christ, they are already DEAD even though they may be physically alive.

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2

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" How do you interpret those passages above?"

Huh?
You should ask your rabbi if you want exegesis.

(Our confessions, credoes and interpretations generally don't matter much. Our actions matter. This is my over-arching point.)

" All those people I mentioned earlier repented of their sins and turned back to God, thus God is not ashamed to call them His own."

So what did they do after they repented?
In fact, what is repentance?
It is turning to Torah, and then remaining in, keeping, Torah.

Some people live in a world of purely invisible things, of confessions, sound-waves and ideas, but not actions. Scripture prioritizes action, Torah, law, lifestyle.

You keep brining up concepts and theories and invisible things, but the end of the matter is Torah, praxis, lifestyle.

"Only those who believe in Christ are resurrected unto everlasting life."

So you're distinguishing between eternal life in heaven and eternal life in hell, then (as I knew you would); my point is the artificiality of the distinction, since they are both forms of existence/life. But that's a dead end for us. Not sure how we even got into it.

Did Paul incorrectly quote Hosea, when he claimed that Gentiles are now God's people?

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Of course not...but this is a faulty interpretation what both Hosea and Paul said. The question itself indicates a lack of understanding for what the Jews were "chosen" for.

If you were to make the case that more than a remnant of gentiles are fulfilling the great commission, then I'd say the chosen people have accomplished the mission they were chosen for, but according to Rev 7 they still have an end-times job to do.

So the verses in Romans 9 are related to several verses of Romans in keeping with the theme that Jews are not "His people" by virtue of being born Jewish, but by putting their trust in the One who created them for His praise (Romans 2:29)

Here is the context and scriptural support:

As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.” “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”


Who are "them"? Very specifically "them" in this verse are the Jews living in the northern kingdom of Israel before the Assyrian captivity, which was before the Babylonian captivity of the southern kingdom of Judah.

They were taken into captivity because they had turned away from faith in their Maker. So He gave them a writ of divorce, said they were no longer His people, and off they went to mostly disappear into the nations of the east, though some certainly returned with the edict of Cyrus.

But the statement was made to "them", not to the gentiles. It's simple, really. He said that "they" were no longer His people, but at some point in the future He says they will be.

Concerning the gentiles, lets look at the next sentence in Romans 9

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.


Again, it's really simple. A remnant of the goyim (gentiles, nations) has been joined to the remnant of Israel and are now called "His people".

There in no longer a requirement to go up to Jerusalem for atonement of sin and the spotless Lamb has made salvation available to all people through faith (strong trust), so the door is open to all, regardless of race or origin.

But that doesn't negate that the promise is made to the people of Israel, since Paul tells the Ephesians we are now joined to "the people of God" (Israel/Jews) and partakers in their covenants.

So, yea, we gentiles are included within the "chosen people" but not apart from them.

hope that helps....



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