The old covenant is revoked

netzarim said:

Mt 5:17: "I have not come to abolish them but to πληρῶσαι - fill to the full, cause to supply liberally - them

Rom 10:4 "Christ is the τέλος ... νόμου - termination of the Law"

"πληρῶσαι" does not equal "τέλος νόμου"

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Because Jesus fulfilled the Law it was terminated.

A New World said:

Because Jesus fulfilled the Law it was terminated.

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No, Jesus will be the completion of the Law when he is filled to satisfaction at his second coming and given the Kingdoms of this world for the Kingdom of God..

he-man said:

No, Jesus will be the completion of the Law when he is filled to satisfaction at his second coming and given the Kingdoms of this world for the Kingdom of God..

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Why? What Law did He not fulfill?

Did He fulfill the laws specific to women?

A New World said:

Because Jesus fulfilled the Law it was terminated.

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"Filling something to the full" does not equal "termination". He only completed some of the prophecies regarding His first coming, as recorded in the Law and Prophets.

netzarim said:

Did He fulfill the laws specific to women?

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Where does it say He had to?

IchoozJC said:

Where does it say He had to?

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If He didn't fulfill that part of the Law, then how can one claim that the Law has been done away with?

In fact, Messiah Himself clarified that all that is in the Law shall not be accomplished until heaven and earth pass away (Mt 5:18). As far as I can tell, both are still here ... thus, the Law is as well.

netzarim said:

If He didn't fulfill that part of the Law, then how can one claim that the Law has been done away with?

In fact, Messiah Himself clarified that all that is in the Law shall not be accomplished until heaven and earth pass away (Mt 5:18). As far as I can tell, both are still here ... thus, the Law is as well.

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In fact the heaven and earth referenced in Mt. 5:17,18 has passed away. The first heaven and first earth of Rev. 21:1 is synonymous with the first covenant of Heb. 8:13. The writer of Hebrews said it was ready (near) to pass away when he wrote.

John saw the old pass away and the full arrival of the new and posited it as near (Rev. 22:10,12).

Remember, not even a jot or tittle could pass from the Law until it was all fulfilled. If heaven and earth have not passed away, Israel is still under the entire Mosaic Law.

But we know that's not the case. Jesus fulfilled the Law and it was terminated when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70.

To further understand the application of the term "heavens and earth" as covenantal and not the physical planet and stars etc. consider the following examples:

The prologue to the Song of Moses given to the nation of Israel: “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth." (Deuteronomy 32:1 NKJV)

Isaiah describes the nation of Israel being delivered from bondage through the dividing of the Red Sea, given the Law (My words in your mouth): "But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared— The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:15, 16 NKJV)

So, when Jesus spoke of the passing away of the heavens and the earth He was signaling the end of the Old Covenant age in their generation.

Prophecy given and fulfilled right on time!

A New World said:

In fact the heaven and earth referenced in Mt. 5:17,18 has passed away. The first heaven and first earth of Rev. 21:1 is synonymous with the first covenant of Heb. 8:13. The writer of Hebrews said it was ready (near) to pass away when he wrote.

John saw the old pass away and the full arrival of the new and posited it as near (Rev. 21:10,12).

Remember, not even a jot or tittle could pass from the Law until it was all fulfilled. If heaven and earth have not passed away, Israel is still under the entire Mosaic Law.

But we know that's not the case. Jesus fulfilled the Law and it was terminated when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70.

To further understand the application of the term "heavens and earth" as covenantal and not the physical planet and stars etc. consider the following examples:

The prologue to the Song of Moses given to the nation of Israel: “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth." (Deuteronomy 32:1 NKJV)

Isaiah describes the nation of Israel being delivered from bondage through the dividing of the Red Sea, given the Law (My words in your mouth): "But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared— The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:15, 16 NKJV)

So, when Jesus spoke of the passing away of the heavens and the earth He was signaling the end of the Old Covenant age in their generation.

Prophecy given and fulfilled right on time!

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So when did Messiah "fulfill" the commandments given to women?

netzarim said:

So when did Messiah "fulfill" the commandments given to women?

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He fulfilled the law by perfectly observing every aspect necessary for His earthly life. He then offers the righteousness that He earned to ALL that put their trust in Him and not their own efforts.

CherubRam said:

Heaven and earth are still here.
Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

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For believers, its fulfilled in Christ. For unbelievers the Law is still at work, doing what it does which is identify everyone as sinners.

netzarim said:

If He didn't fulfill that part of the Law, then how can one claim that the Law has been done away with?

In fact, Messiah Himself clarified that all that is in the Law shall not be accomplished until heaven and earth pass away (Mt 5:18). As far as I can tell, both are still here ... thus, the Law is as well.

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Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17, 18 NKJV)

The Law and the prophets were a package deal. Paul included the prophecy of Isaiah as part of the Law: "In the law it is written: “With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord. (I Corinthians 14:21 NKJV)

So, the Law would pass away when all prophecy was fulfilled. That is exactly what occurred when God judged the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, in AD 70. John saw the imminent passing away of "the first heaven and the first earth" (the Old Covenant age).

Jesus was not saying that He must specifically keep all 613+ laws contained in the Mosaic Covenant. He kept the Law perfectly and fulfilled all prophecy by the time the destruction of Jerusalem was complete.

A New World said:

Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17, 18 NKJV)

... the Law would pass away when all prophecy was fulfilled. That is exactly what occurred when God judged the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, in AD 70. John saw the imminent passing away of "the first heaven and the first earth" (the Old Covenant age).

Jesus was not saying that He must specifically keep all 613+ laws contained in the Mosaic Covenant. He kept the Law perfectly and fulfilled all prophecy by the time the destruction of Jerusalem was complete.

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There are many prophecies that have not been fulfilled.

netzarim said:

There are many prophecies that have not been fulfilled.

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If you're correct, John was a false prophet. Again, he posited the events of Revelation as near, shortly and soon.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Revelation 1:1-3 NKJV)

"Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place."

"And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand." (Revelation 22:6, 10 NKJV)

Not only was John a false prophet, if you're correct, Jesus and all the apostles were also.

Jesus said, in response to the disciples question about when the age in which they were living would end:

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:3, 34 NKJV)

Paul wrote: "Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (I Corinthians 10:11 NKJV)

Peter wrote: "But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers." (I Peter 4:7 NKJV)

James wrote: "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!" (James 5:7-9 NKJV)

John also wrote: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (I John 2:18 NKJV)

I believe it's about time. It's about the time frame clearly laid out by The Lord and all the inspired NT writers!

A New World said:

If you're correct, John was a false prophet. Again, he posited the events of Revelation as near, shortly and soon.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Revelation 1:1-3 NKJV)

"Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place."

"And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand." (Revelation 22:6, 10 NKJV)

Not only was John a false prophet, if you're correct, Jesus and all the apostles were also.

Jesus said, in response to the disciples question about when the age in which they were living would end:

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:3, 34 NKJV)

Peter wrote: "But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers." (I Peter 4:7 NKJV)

James wrote: "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!" (James 5:7-9 NKJV)

John also wrote: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (I John 2:18 NKJV)

I believe it's about time. It's about the time frame clearly laid out by The Lord and all the inspired NT writers!

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"shortly must take place", "time is near", "time is at hand", "at hand", "last hour", "at the door" does not mean these things must happen within a few years of the apostles' lives.

netzarim said:

"shortly must take place", "time is near", "time is at hand", "at hand", "last hour", "at the door" does not mean these things must happen within a few years of the apostles' lives.

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So, John explicitly stated that the things he was writing about in the book of Revelation "must shortly take place."
But you say that means they wouldn't take place for at least nineteen hundred plus years?

Jesus said their generation would not pass until all that He described took place. But you believe all that He described still hasn't taken place?

All of the inspired apostles used unambiguous language to communicate to their audiences the nearness of the coming of The Lord.
But you believe they did "not mean these things must happen within a few years of the apostles' lives"?

Does imminent language have any meaning? If you're correct, all the words and phrases that expressed the nearness of His coming were absolutely meaningless to the very audiences to whom they were given.

If Jesus and the apostles wanted to communicate the imminence of His promised return, how could they have stated it more clearly?

If your view is correct:

Wouldn't Jesus have said something like, "That generation," instead of, "This generation?"

Maybe Paul would have written: "The end of the age will be upon them."

And Peter would have written: "The end of all things will be near then."

They were living in the last days and the time frame is clearly defined. In my opinion, once one accepts the truth, the time and nature of His coming necessarily follow.

netzarim said:

"shortly must take place", "time is near", "time is at hand", "at hand", "last hour", "at the door" does not mean these things must happen within a few years of the apostles' lives.

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lol...ain't that the truth.

Whats funny is when Christ said "no man knows the day, not even the son, only the Father", yet idiots go out an believe many preachers (false prophets?) who have the end pegged by world events. They read scripture and know more than Christ did.

If Gods patience can put up with evil all this time, what makes people believe he's in a hurry to complete his plan?

I thank him each day I awake above ground.

Phantasman said:

lol...ain't that the truth.

Whats funny is when Christ said "no man knows the day, not even the son, only the Father", yet idiots go out an believe many preachers (false prophets?) who have the end pegged by world events. They read scripture and know more than Christ did.

If Gods patience can put up with evil all this time, what makes people believe he's in a hurry to complete his plan?

I thank him each day I awake above ground.

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This a common mistake made when attempting to interpret the Olivet Discourse.

The Discourse was Jesus' answer to the disciples question regarding the time of His coming and the end of the age.

Notice the personal pronoun "you" (later defined as the generation living in the first century AD-Mt. 24:34) in the following verses:

“Take heed that no one deceives you."(Matthew 24:4)

"And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars" (v. 6)

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake" (v. 9)

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand) (v. 15)

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it (v. 23)

"See, I have told you beforehand" (v. 25)

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it" (v. 26)

When Jesus said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only" (v. 36), He spoke in the present tense. He did not say they would never know. In fact He'd just given them signs so they would know when that day had drawn near.

Later, James indicated that he had seen the signs given and he then knew the time was near (James 5:7-9)