Jesus' meaning of "world" in Jn 6:51 and 7:7

heymikey80

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What some fail to see is that the onus is on man - "whosoever believes". He loves man whether he believes or not.
He actually helps only men who believe. Are you saying God's sacrificial love destroys unbelievers with His wrath? That God's violent wrath is self-sacrificing love?

God's actions need to be consistent with how they are being characterized. While I think ksome of the duty God owes unrighteousness deserves these actions, and that covenantally, I don't see how they could be called sacrificial love, even in Greek.
 
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heymikey80

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I don't think it makes sense to say that God loved believers so much that He sent His Son to save those who believe. It sounds redundant.
I would wonder about this too Hammster, but I'm also skeptical about thinking God so loved unbelievers that He ... saved those who believed.

We may also need to consider Jesus is talking to a Jewish teacher. His sole point may be to push Nicodemus to realize that salvation is worldwide, not Judean.

I'm not particularly satisfied with that explanation, but it is the first that makes some sense to me.

But what does make more sense to me is that God's love for the whole created system (expanding beyond Judea) led Him to continue it in a way that fixes its corruptions -- with the effect on people, that believers would not die.
 
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EmSw

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He actually helps only men who believe. Are you saying God's sacrificial love destroys unbelievers with His wrath? That God's violent wrath is self-sacrificing love?

God's actions need to be consistent with how they are being characterized. While I think ksome of the duty God owes unrighteousness deserves these actions, and that covenantally, I don't see how they could be called sacrificial love, even in Greek.

Man does it to himself.
 
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Hammster

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Why do you find that strange Hammster?

1 Kings 10:9 -
Blessed be the Lord your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; because the Lord loved Israel forever...


Ezekiel 36 -
16 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying,
17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
18 Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
19 Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” (Romans 9:6, 7 ESV)
 
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Hammster

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What some fail to see is that the onus is on man - "whosoever believes". He loves man whether he believes or not.

Yeah, so much so the He sends to hell those who don't believe.
 
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Hammster

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I would wonder about this too Hammster, but I'm also skeptical about thinking God so loved unbelievers that He ... saved those who believed.

We may also need to consider Jesus is talking to a Jewish teacher. His sole point may be to push Nicodemus to realize that salvation is worldwide, not Judean.

I'm not particularly satisfied with that explanation, but it is the first that makes some sense to me.

But what does make more sense to me is that God's love for the whole created system (expanding beyond Judea) led Him to continue it in a way that fixes its corruptions -- with the effect on people, that believers would not die.

One other thing to consider is that it wasn't Jesus who said it, but John starting his commentary. I'm not sure if that changes anything, though.
 
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EmSw

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But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” (Romans 9:6, 7 ESV)

You have taken a right turn when you should have proceeded straight ahead. Ezekiel 36:17 and 18 clearly states it was the house of Israel He poured His wrath upon.

Sly move Hammster, but truth overcomes assumptions.
 
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EmSw

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Yeah, so much so the He sends to hell those who don't believe.

Again, do you not know it is man who remains in his sins which sends him to hell?

When a judge sends a murderer to prison, is it the judge who is responsible or the man who murders? Sin has its own punishment.
 
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Hammster

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You have taken a right turn when you should have proceeded straight ahead. Ezekiel 36:17 and 18 clearly states it was the house of Israel He poured His wrath upon.

Sly move Hammster, but truth overcomes assumptions.

No assumptions. You forget about progressive revelation. There were, of course, Israelites by birth. But that's not what made them God's chosen, as Paul points out in Romans (and Galatians). God did, although, always preserve a remnant.
 
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Hammster

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Again, do you not know it is man who remains in his sins which sends him to hell?

When a judge sends a murderer to prison, is it the judge who is responsible or the man who murders? Sin has its own punishment.

So you don't sin? Good to know.
 
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EmSw

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So you don't sin? Good to know.

??? Read again. I said a man who remains in his sins.

Do you think any man can remain a liar and enter the kingdom of heaven, even if they consider themselves the elect? Revelation 21:8 does not discriminate; ALL liars have their part in the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
 
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sdowney717

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??? Read again. I said a man who remains in his sins.

Do you think any man can remain a liar and enter the kingdom of heaven, even if they consider themselves the elect? Revelation 21:8 does not discriminate; ALL liars have their part in the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

All that matter is if God considers them the elect. The elect are His very own elect because they ARE BOUGHT WITH HIS BLOOD.. And He wont loose a single one of them.
 
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EmSw

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All that matter is if God considers them the elect. The elect are His very own elect because they ARE BOUGHT WITH HIS BLOOD.. And He wont loose a single one of them.

Do you really believe this? Have you not read Jeremiah 15? Do you believe the house of Israel was the elect of God? God Himself called them 'My people'.

Jeremiah 15 -
5 “Indeed, who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem, or who will mourn for you, or who will turn aside to ask about your welfare?
6 “You who have forsaken Me,” declares the Lord, “You keep going backward. So I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am tired of relenting!
7 “I will winnow them with a winnowing fork at the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy My people; they did not repent of their ways."
 
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Hammster

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??? Read again. I said a man who remains in his sins.

Do you think any man can remain a liar and enter the kingdom of heaven, even if they consider themselves the elect? Revelation 21:8 does not discriminate; ALL liars have their part in the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

So you used to sin, but not now?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't think it makes sense to say that God loved believers so much that He sent His Son to save those who believe. It sounds redundant.
How does this sound for REDUNDANCY:
God loved believers only so much that He sent His Son to die for believers only.

The problem of not making any sense is when one simply accepts the non-biblical idea that Christ died ONLY for believers. The Bible has cleary stated that fact, yet Calvinists simply can't comprehend that truth. Because it threatens their theology.

Here's what Paul says about who Christ died for:

Romans 5:6
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

While one may argue that Paul was only referring to his audience of believers, there is every reason to understand that he was speaking as a human, not specifically as a believer. How so?
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12
On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sickAre just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6
You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

If Christ died for just the elect, then his theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

If one can prove from each of those passages that the verse is clearly limited to ONLY BELIEVERS/ELECT/etc, then I must believe your view.

Otherwise, I will continue to reject RT theology and know that Christ died for everyone.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If you want to think that God's wrath is poured out on those He loves, then you have a strange idea of love.
Since my view hasn't been refuted by any Scripture, and your view hasn't been proven by Scripture, there is no reason to believe your view.
 
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