The glorious epistle of Hebrews.

Frogster · Jun 2, 2014

The deliberate sin here was to choose to leave Christ, yet many people use thise verse to scare people, people that are struggling, but that is not a proper usage of the passage, this was a well thought out move, as I wil show later in verse 29, to ignore the New cov, this is not about a struggling saint, even though it gets pasted on everyone, to use fear, too keep the sheep afraid.

10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Of course there is always forgiveness for those who are weak, that was the whole point of the merciful high priest! So for the struggling, there is always the eternal sacrifice made, the blood that eternally cleansed them.

The no more sacrifice verse is about those leaving the only sacrifice there is, of course for those choosing to leave Christ there is nothing left to go to, but for us, there always is eternal cleansing!

Frogster · Jun 3, 2014

Even in their bad situation, he hoped for their best, he still (again) called them brothers.

10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,

Frogster · Jun 4, 2014

Again, the sin of the Hebrews, was to knowingly leave the atonement, that is not your typical Christian, who fears these passages. He does not have to fear, he is not choosing apostasy, if it were true, he would not care. Yet preachers use this book to scare people, making them think there is no more forgiveness for their struggling. That goes against the merciful high priest for sure.

These verse show the choice of apostasy, later ther is a powerful word in 10:29, to show this was no accidental sin, or a struggling group of saints here, no, this was a choice for apostasy, so people do not have to fear chapters 6, and 10.

Drift from the gospel.

2:2 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.

Fall away, means apostasy in 3:12

3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Shrink back, a decision to leave Christ, they were under persecution, which I will porve later.

10:38-39but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,my soul has no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Nope, people do noy have to fear, their situation is not an average struggling Christians's situation. The 'fear" verses always get misued against the scared saints.

Frogster · Jun 6, 2014

Grace from the writer, he is trying to stir them up in a good way, by reminder of the past. This passage does show they were saved already, they were enlightened. Chapter 6 says they tasted of the powers.They were even persecuted, as they were most likely being persecuted again, which might have added to the reason verse 35 calls for them to stay in that confidence, the Gospel. Don't go into apostasy, don't go back to the old system. Chapter 12 speaks more at this, they we under persecution, deciding whether to stay in the new cov, or out of fear, go back to the old.

10:32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, 33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. 34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

geetrue · Jun 6, 2014

Frogster said:
Grace from the writer, he is trying to stir them up in a good way, by reminder of the past.

Hebrews 10:33-34

33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.

34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.

This where I finally figured out that St Paul was not the author of the book of Hebrews even though the KJV and the NKJV points to that conclusion none of the other translations have the first person view.

Look at these other bible translations:

Hebrews 10:33-34

33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Hebrews 10:3334 (NKJV)

33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated;

34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.

Hebrews 10:33-34 NCV

33 Sometimes you were hurt and attacked before crowds of people, and sometimes you shared with those who were being treated that way.

34 You helped the prisoners. You even had joy when all that you owned was taken from you, because you knew you had something better and more lasting.

Hebrews 10:33-34 NAB

33 At times you were publicly exposed to abuse and affliction; at other times you associated yourselves with those so treated.
34 You even joined in the sufferings of those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you had a better and lasting possession.

Hebrews 10:33-34 NLT

33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things.

34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.

Frogster · Jun 7, 2014

geetrue said:
This where I finally figured out that St Paul was not the author of the book of Hebrews even though the KJV and the NKJV points to that conclusion none of the other translations have the first person view.

Look at these other bible translations:

Hebrews 10:33-34

Hebrews 10:3334 (NKJV)

Hebrews 10:33-34 NCV

Hebrews 10:33-34 NAB

Hebrews 10:33-34 NLT

I just don't get why the conclusion was drawn from these verses, in other words what in the verses convinces you of that?

Frogster · Jun 8, 2014

This verse keeps coming back to me, it is so important.

Again, this rebuke that scares people, need not. They were making a well thought out plan, to leave the new cov, the cov of grace. That is why 26 says willfull. Most today are not doing that, hence the rebuke is relative to them, it is not to be a broad widely used scare tactic, to those who painfully struggle under their issues today. There is more to 10:29, but I thought this from Vincent, descibes the regard word, or counted in some translations.

Trodden under foot (καταπατήσα&#962

Only here in Hebrews. oP. Frequent in lxx for spoiling, defeating, treating contemptuously. The strong term is purposely selected in order to convey the sense of the fearful outrage involved in forsaking Christ and returning to Judaism.

Hath counted an unholy thing (κοινὸν ἡγησάμενο&#962

Ἡγεῖσθαι to count or deem means a conscious judgment resting on a deliberate weighing of the facts. See Romans 12:10; Philippians 2:3. Here it implies a deliberate, contemptuous rejection of the gifts of the new covenant.

Johnnz · Jun 8, 2014

Frogster said:
Again, the sin of the Hebrews, was to knowingly leave the atonement, that is not your typical Christian, who fears these passages. He does not have to fear, he is not choosing apostasy, if it were true, he would not care. Yet preachers use this book to scare people, making them think there is no more forgiveness for their struggling. That goes against the merciful high priest for sure.

These verse show the choice of apostasy, later ther is a powerful word in 10:29, to show this was no accidental sin, or a struggling group of saints here, no, this was a choice for apostasy, so people do not have to fear chapters 6, and 10.

This section must be seen within the context of the NT period. Who is god/ What must I do to appease/please a god? What happens after death? These were questions that were part if daily living. Pagan society was very religious.

What the author was arguing was "Where can anyone go and obtain all the benefits Jesus has achieved?" Leave Jesus and you are back where you were before, worshipping god(s) who cannot offer the Life of the Spirit, real freedom from guilt, relationship over ritual, and the assurance of resurrection." This is the main thrust of the theme of the author's argument at that point in his letter. Sure, it was addressed to some wavering individuals, but the theme is far broader than one's personal salvation.

Nope, people do noy have to fear, their situation is not an average struggling Christians's situation. The 'fear" verses always get misued against the scared saints.

I agree.

John
NZ

turned around · Jun 8, 2014

Hi,
I concur with that thought.

Grace to you.

geetrue · Jun 8, 2014

Frogster said:
I just don't get why the conclusion was drawn from these verses, in other words what in the verses convinces you of that?

The reason I bring it up is because I find it odd how many people dolt on the KJV being the correctness of translations and then I found the differences in the other translations.

Hebrews 10:34 KJV

For ye had compassion of me in my bonds

NKJ for you had compassion on me in my chains

NCV You helped the prisoners.

NAB [B]You even joined in the sufferings of those in prison [/B]

NLLT [B]You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail[/B]

see the differences pointing me in the direction that the KJV and the NKJ lead people to think St Paul may have ben the author, but the other versions don't agree.

Now don't get me wrong this is not to derail a study of the book of Hebrews with who the author is, but only points to translations differences.

My little community church studied the book of Hebrews for almost a whole year every Sunday morning. We were all so blessed, but the one rule was not to argue about who the author was so we might receive the engrafted truth available.

I love the Book of Hebrews ...

Frogster · Jun 8, 2014

Johnnz said:
I agree.

John
NZ

turned around said:
Hi,
I concur with that thought.

Grace to you.

I concur with both of ya!

Frogster · Jun 8, 2014

geetrue said:
The reason I bring it up is because I find it odd how many people dolt on the KJV being the correctness of translations and then I found the differences in the other translations.

Hebrews 10:34 KJV

For ye had compassion of me in my bonds

NKJ for you had compassion on me in my chains

NCV You helped the prisoners.

NAB [B]You even joined in the sufferings of those in prison [/B]

NLLT [B]You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail[/B]

see the differences pointing me in the direction that the KJV and the NKJ lead people to think St Paul may have ben the author, but the other versions don't agree.

Now don't get me wrong this is not to derail a study of the book of Hebrews with who the author is, but only points to translations differences.

My little community church studied the book of Hebrews for almost a whole year every Sunday morning. We were all so blessed, but the one rule was not to argue about who the author was so we might receive the engrafted truth available.

I love the Book of Hebrews ...

No derail at all, you are blessing the thread

, and yes, the translation differences do ad alot of thought to the chains issue. Others cite the Timothy reference in 13 also, but to me, if Paul wrote it good, if he did not good, it proves the grace doctrine was believed on by more than Peter and Paul.

I know there is alot more internal evidence that others speak of, but I have not dabbled too much into that, I love the overt awesome truths so much, to me, better to learn more of that, but if anyone wants to offer internal pro Paul stuff, it would be welcomed and interesting.

I love Hebrews too, we are bro's! :wave:

Frogster · Jun 9, 2014

There is little doubt here, in 29, the New cov is grace.

10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

So the blood of the Son, is the new cov of grace.

So to go back to animal blood, was to go back to law, an inferior thing, trampling on the blood of the son, pretty serious thing.

The blood makes the New cov, as most serious, nothing to trample on.

This shows the new Cov had been in effect too, one could not trample the cov, if it were not.

Frogster · Jun 10, 2014

10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.

Again, the encouragement to go foward, don't shrink back, all showing again, they were deciding to leave the Lord, this was not about a group of Christians struggling with something, just to repeat, the warnings in this book really, really need to be in context, to their situation.

This verse, live by faith, is quoted 3 times in the NT , and everywhere, like here, it was about an ongoing faith, beyond imputation, all showing that it was not about me at the wheel, under the yoke of progressive sanctification.

We were imputed by grace, Christians now live each day by that same faith, Col 2:6, now walk that way, the same way the justification came, by faith.

Basically the Hebrews were being told, stay in the grace, don't retreat to works. The Spirit does it all.

Frogster · Jun 10, 2014

The just shall live by faith

Justified, justification, we are. Because every violation has to be avenged. And Jesus met each , the chastisement put upon Him, at an untold cost we cant begin to imagine.

By faith it is, how could it not be, at such expense? Living, living, holy, His holiness, on that royal golden road. Am I progressing to holiness? Well, Hebrews 2 says He made me holy, already Im in the family, were one, Jesus and I, and God is now my father.

He takes no pleasure when we turn away from his great gift. He enjoys giving it to us.

So Ill live each day by faith, knowing Im one of the justified.

Frogster · Jun 11, 2014

In light of the fact, that the Hebrews were being encouraged to keep going by faith, throug the persecution, (they were reminded of their earlier persecutions, because most likely they were under more, as per chapter 12), it seems a wise move, to show them others that lived, and kept going by faith, as an example to not shrink back, as they were inclined towards doing.

11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.

Notice how he mentions the people of old, they were examples to be remembered.

Frogster · Jun 13, 2014

And by faith they>>>

11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.

Frogster · Jun 13, 2014

However, in light of some future text, they, like Abraham, might have to wait, for the future city, like others who by faith, did not always get things right away. Exiles of this life.

11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Yes, even Abraham, the father of faith, who even in the land, knew there was something better, not about the earth.

11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

Indeed, they were going to be told later in 13, to go outside of the gate, camp, leaving the norms of Judaism, the law, and everything they knew, or thought to be "it".

The same theme, the heavenly vs the earthly.

Johnnz · Jun 13, 2014

'Faith' in the context of the recent verses you have posted is about what facts our belief (faith) is based on. That is , it's not about 'having faith as faith' but have a very good basis upon which we chose, which then becomes our faith. The entire argument up to Ch 11 is the reasons why we can have such confidence in Jesus and what He has achieved for us as the reasons for our conclusion to follow him which is then 'our faith'.

Sometimes some exhortations are little more than "Have faith in faith," "believe more strongly', "trust God more". Its the actual basis upon which we accept Jesus and following Him that is essential, not some 'faith' apart from well founded belief.

John
NZ

Frogster · Jun 13, 2014

Johnnz said:
'Faith' in the context of the recent verses you have posted is about what facts our belief (faith) is based on. That is , it's not about 'having faith as faith' but have a very good basis upon which we chose, which then becomes our faith. The entire argument up to Ch 11 is the reasons why we can have such confidence in Jesus and what He has achieved for us as the reasons for our conclusion to follow him which is then 'our faith'.

Sometimes some exhortations are little more than "Have faith in faith," "believe more strongly', "trust God more". Its the actual basis upon which we accept Jesus and following Him that is essential, not some 'faith' apart from well founded belief.

John
NZ

I agree, like Gen 15:6, faith in what God said, not faith in our faith, or faith can become a work.

I think that is best too, because my faith may fail, but God won't, so even if my faith lulls, it does not matter, because the promise is made, not contingent on me, but Him.

The glorious epistle of Hebrews.

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