Falling away

James-49

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No doubt falling away from the true faith and falling away from false religions have occurred since the beginnings of Christianity ..

The goal is to rid Christianity altogether ..if satan has a better means to rid the problem...Why would he not implement it?

He has not succeeded in causing new believers to see the truth of the gospel over the many years

Through disbelief deception lies and falsehood which He is the master of ....seeks to conquer the world because he knows his time is short

I agree that the devil is against Christianity, and I consider he uses the religion to be against it.

There's an interesting page, "Victims of the Christian Faith"
Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades

I'm not sure about the videos or other parts of the website - but the article itself provides referenced material and is a comprehensive listing of Christian religion in history.

To me, it demonstrates the devil has been actively cultivating this means over the last almost 2,000 years.

1Jn 2:11
"But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."

2Th 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

1Jn 2:18
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."
 
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James-49

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I do believe that the wheat harvest is the rapture but I am not convinced that it will take place at the 6 th seal. I am thinking that it happens in revelation 4:1 when John is called up to heaven. Note: the church is not mentioned in revelation again until the end.

No one knows for sure about this timing. The exact timing of the rapture is not mentioned in scripture. However, there are many pictures, parables and symbols that can give us clues.

The elect that you mentioned above are not the church in this particular passage , but are the people who live on earth during the tribulation IMO . The church will be ' caught up' before this time frame. Note: the elect can either be Israel or the church depending on the context of scripture. ( this doesn't mean that Israel turns into the church as some believe ) Or the elect , like in Matt 24 is anyone who has accepted Christ as their lord and savior .

Thank you again, bibletruth469. You have an unassuming way of presenting ideas that really help me to take notice :)

I'm not able to resolve a rapture to Rev 4:1 because John starts the vision in 4:2 - and as that vision unfolds there is no one found worthy to open the seals in Rev 5:3

Rev 5:3
"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

So at that point of the vision Christ had not completed His death and resurrection, and a rapture would have to come after that. But I am pleased you also consider the wheat harvest related to a rapture - provides me some validation.

Mat 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

I agree that the elect are those enduring the tribulation period - but I'm also persuaded it includes the Church (Christ's persons). I've been unable to find a compelling argument to consider that the tribulation has yet to occur - I consider it was set in motion in the first century and has continued all this time.

Rev 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Lol - I know what you mean about the church and Israel and how complicated it becomes on who is who. I think my rule of thumb has become, if I need to use air quotes then it's time to step away.
 
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James-49

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Bibletruth's got the right answer with that video in thread #12. The falling away happens after the church is gone, and the ones left on earth are the unrighteous.

Most people left behind are described in 2nd Tim 3. Some will even be Christians, the lukewarm type.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (CEV)
What People Will Be Like in the Last Days


1) You can be certain that in the last days there will be some very hard times. 2) People will love only themselves and money. They will be proud, stuck-up, rude, and disobedient to their parents. They will also be ungrateful, godless, 3) heartless, and hateful. Their words will be cruel, and they will have no self-control or pity. These people will hate everything that is good. 4) They will be sneaky, reckless, and puffed up with pride. Instead of loving God, they will love pleasure. 5) Even though they will make a show of being religious, their religion won’t be real. Don’t have anything to do with such people.


The main purpose of the tribulation is to prepare as many people possible for the second coming of Christ, but the another purpose of the tribulation is to humble those that turned away from God. Sometimes, God must put people under extreme measures to wake them up. The tribulation is not about a test of faith, it's a test of repentance.

Joel 2:31-32 (NKJV)
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32) And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.

For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.


Acts 2:20-21 (NKJV)
20) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21) And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.


Matthew 23:12 (NKJV)
And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.


For those that repent, they will be save from the tribulation and live into the millennium. Those that show great faith by not submitting to the antichrist will be resurrected at the end to reign in the millennium.

If it not for the great tribulation ahead, there be less people to reign with Jesus during the millennium.

Hi, TPeterY, and thank you for your feedback. I must admit I'm finding another issue with logistics. If the church is gone and there's only the unrighteous remaining, aren't they already fallen away?

I agree on your recounting of what people will be like in the last days - I consider they've been like that since the first century.

2Ti 3:1
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."
Heb 1:2
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
Act 2:17
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"

For the tribulation I can see the point of it being a test - I'll need to explore that further, thank you - but I do also consider it the war that the devil wages.

Rev 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Both the tribulation and the perilous times of what men will be like I consider to be the consequences of wheat and tares growing together.

Mat 13:30
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

I also find it difficult to consider that we could be saved from tribulation - it's from wrath that we are saved.

Mat 10:34
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Mar 10:30
"But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."
Joh 3:36
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

I do agree that many of us are being added to the kingdom because of God's work taking us through tribulation.
 
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James-49

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imo, after the resurrection and God's plan of Salvation from the fall became understood - Satan was forced to go to plan B, which is actually imo a repeat of the fall in the garden of Eden that man can be like God. Which Satan's agenda is to be like the Most High and be worshiped.

The Antichrist will be Satan's protege' to mankind convincing humans that they can reach God-hood, which would include eternal life on certain level.

I would package that question a little differently. The eventual man of sin, before he reaches that stage, himself will not be a Christian. So he will be thinking from the outset that Christianity is false and will not be reading into the prophecies like Christians do of the end times. And even if he is totally aware, he won't believe them.

He is going to have a Jewish perspective which is that Christianity is all made up, beginning with the resurrection. He will not view himself as the Anti-messiah, a concept foreign to Judaism, but will fancy himself as the one chosen by God to be the real Jewish messiah.

As a Jew, the door to the occult is Kabbalah. In Kabbalah practice, there is a notion that the adept at Kabbalah, can harness the power of the angels to carry out the adept's agenda. That is the craft it appears the Antichrist will practice before he even comes on the scene as the leader of Europe. Getting deeper and deeper, he will eventually, after great success in his rise to become the King of Israel messiah, that he will become convinced in his heart that he has reached God-hood - half way through the seven years.

In Judaism, their concept of Satan would seem outrageous to Christians. They will tell you that Satan is the obedient servant to God, carrying out a job as the adversary, as assigned to him. That Satan has no free will to oppose God.

So with that sort of mentality, it is easy to see how the Antichrist will think he can control the adversary, having Satan carry out his (the Antichrist's) own agenda, and even that to becoming the messiah.

The bible clearly warns not to be consulting with them in the spirit world. Kabbalalists take that warning as being conditional, that a person can go into the spirit world to grow closer to God as long as certain protocols are followed. It is a twisted way of thinking, but that is what they are trying to do.

There is an online read of the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina, using Kabbalah practice, who attempted to bring in the redemption, by capturing and binding Samael and Lilith. It exemplifies the Jewish Kabbalists' thinking. It is a really good read and I think every Christian should read it as an eye opener. Not that we should ever try to emulate it; it's definitely something never to get involved in, but to be aware of what the kabbalists are thinking. This link is a Jewish site, not a Christian one.

Dreaming of Moshiach: The Story: Rise and Fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina

When the Antichrist gets to the point of thinking he has obtained God-hood, commits the sin of going into the temple and portraying himself as such - and God has him killed for that outrageous act, and brings him back alive.

It is then, that the beast comes out of the bottomless pit, the disembodied unclean spirit of Nimrod, to possess him. That's when not only is the end time Antichrist is involved, but what essentially is a demon possessing him that will drive the Antichrist-beast's actions and thinking.

From that online reading about the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina.... things went terribly wrong.

"Yosef and his remaining student buried the 2 dead students and afterwards, rested. The demon possessed the other 2 students and perished in great suffering that the demon inflicted on them.
After this, Joseph went to the city of Sidon, where he settled. His ways turned very evil. He saw that he did not succeed and since he heard from the Divine Voice that he lost this world and the world-to-come, he made a conventant with the malicious Lilith and handed himself to her and she became his wife. He polluted every way possible and used Holy Name of HKB'H to do evil. Every night he would conjure spirits and devils to fetch him his heart's desire.
He continued his evil ways and had more women than possible until the wife of the Greece king. He had her brought to him every night and in the morning, he would give orders to return her. One day the queen told her husband, "Every night I dream that I'm in a certain place and a man sleeps with me but find myself in the morning in my bed".


....there is more at that link.

Having read my post above, please consider these verses. I would firmly plant these verses as a central part of my end times understanding of the Antichrist. See the connections to Kabballah and the Antichrist?

Daniel 8:23
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

2Thessalonians2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Douggg, thank you for sharing your research. There's definitely a lot to digest - I'll need to take more time going over this.

What I do know at this point, though, is that there isn't a scriptural reference to any "the" Antichrist - not in the original text.

2Th 2:3-4
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


I know I've considered the "man" to be a collective reference of mankind and fallen flesh, but I realize it can be equally viewed as an individual, or a role occupied by an individual (individuals over history - like President is the role being occupied by many).

That being said, I would consider that I cannot argue against it being an individual so I would have to accept it as one of the possibilities. What is common is that "he" would be revealed.

Going back to my OP then, wouldn't it be possible that "he" has been revealed already?

Here comes the blunt part - but I share because you shared openly.

Jesus Christ is the only one we know who was slain, and then was healed ... and then had a religion wrapped around Him. Christ cannot be corrupted, but the religion can.

2Co 4:3-4
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

2Co 11:4
"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
Gal 1:6-9
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
"Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
"As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Heb 4:2
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it"
1Th 2:4-6
"But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
"For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
"Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ."


Christ is true, but the religion can be a perverted representation that hides under His Name.

Eph 6:11
"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."
wiles = travesty: a false, absurd, or distorted representation of something
 
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James-49

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Let's look at the translation of "falling away" first.
YLT says "dissension"
WEB says "departure"
RSV says "rebellion"
NRSV Anglicize says "revolt"
New Living says "great rebellion against God"
Amplified says "falling away of those who profess to be Christians"
NAS says "apostasy"

So something will happen to cause people to turn away from their faith, those who weren't saved to begin with, like the seeds planted in shallow soil or when the thorns grew around them, they were choked to death. Rebelliousness is part of the nature of sin.
We have also seen a massive movement of rebellion in the Middle East: Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc., all which can be labeled as revolts. Maybe it has nothing to do with Christians at all. Since the context of the verse deals with one man of sin, then it's maybe his rebellion against/falling away from Christ, but now is anti-Christ and anti-Jew. He Ignites many nations against Israel ... what nations? Islamic nations.
Look at the Middle East -- ready for war.

?
No.

Thank you, Ronald. Yes, there's no shortage of definitions, but they often seem somewhat subjective.

Strong's goes with "defection" - which defines: desertion from allegiance, loyalty, duty, or the like; apostasy

I still consider that "falling away" is only assumed to be away from faith, and a bad thing. But people leaving a cult could also be labeled as falling away.

I agree that current events do look dire - but they looked dire to Luther and others in their time, too.

In our history (past 2000 years) there's only been the one notable event I know of that could be defined as a falling away - that would be the reformation when men of God fell away from the religious system of their day.

Perversions of that system called religion have continued to this day, in my estimate.
 
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TPeterY

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Hi, TPeterY, and thank you for your feedback. I must admit I'm finding another issue with logistics. If the church is gone and there's only the unrighteous remaining, aren't they already fallen away?

The unrighteous haven't accepted the mark yet (pledging their allegiance to the Antichrist) and can still come to God and be save if they repent during the tribulation. However, once someone accept the mark, they are lost from salvation.

The falling away is in Rev 13. It's primary referring to the thousands to millions of souls lost (who had taken the mark) to the Antichrist immediately after the abomination of desolation where he is reveal.

Might be easier to see this in the ERV translation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (ERV)
1) Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2) Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3) Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell. 4) He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.





.
 
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James-49

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The unrighteous haven't accepted the mark yet (pledging their allegiance to the Antichrist) and can still come to God and be save if they repent during the tribulation. However, once someone accept the mark, they are lost from salvation.

The falling away is in Rev 13. It's primary referring to the thousands to millions of souls lost (who had taken the mark) to the Antichrist immediately after the abomination of desolation where he is reveal.

Might be easier to see this in the ERV translation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (ERV)
1) Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2) Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3) Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell. 4) He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.


.

I'll really have to give this some thought. I had always considered those who receive the mark, name, or number were still able to repent and be cleansed of it.

I think where I'm having difficulty is that I'm persuaded it's a past/current event rather than future. By that I mean the falling away and revealing of the "man" of sin. The mark is still inconclusive for me at this point.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg, thank you for sharing your research. There's definitely a lot to digest - I'll need to take more time going over this.

What I do know at this point, though, is that there isn't a scriptural reference to any "the" Antichrist - not in the original text.

There is also not text that says "the" messiah in the original text the old testament. The Jews at their sites make that argument regarding Daniel 9.

"The" Antichrist is antithesis of the messiah. "The" Antichrist, textually, as being one specific person is in the 1John2:18.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Antichrist shall come is the one person, who the Jews will receive for a short time as their long awaited messiah, the promised great King of Israel, Son of David.

The many antichrist's John spoke of as already present, is John "likening" them to the Antichrist in their denial of Jesus. Just as Jesus said he choose the twelve and that one of them was a devil. And when Jesus said to Peter get behind me Satan. Jesus was likening Peter to Satan, not that Peter was Satan.

The Pope, nor office of pope is the Antichrist. That train of thought grew out the reformation persecution on the waldensians, by the Vatican and the RCC. Waldensians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A scan through that link and it can be understood of why the great harlot in Revelation 17, in Rome, that will be judged is the Vatican and the hierarchy of the RCC, of that system of as you wrote "Christ is true, but the religion can be a perverted representation that hides under His Name". Definitely history shows that you are right on that statement. Even so, the Pope, nor office of pope is the Antichrist.

Back in 1923, Arthur Pink addressed that particular issue in his work the Antichrist. Follow this link to Pink's argument on why the papacy is not the Antichrist. The Antichrist - CHAPTER TWO. THE PAPACY NOT THE ANTICHRIST.

The Antichrist to become the perceived promised great King of Israel, Son of David, first the united one nation of Israel has to exist. Which as the united one nation, has not existed until May 15, 1948, the fulfillment of Isaiah 66:7-8, the nation born in a day.

So historically, the papacy could not have been the Antichrist, nor anyone else. Also that the Jews would never embrace the Pope as their king is insurmountable that the Pope cannot be the another instead of Jesus to be that King of Israel, Son of David, anointed.

2Th 2:3-4
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


I know I've considered the "man" to be a collective reference of mankind and fallen flesh, but I realize it can be equally viewed as an individual, or a role occupied by an individual (individuals over history - like President is the role being occupied by many).
The man of sin is not revealed until there are many many prophecies about him fulfilled first, the Antichrist by other codes names in the old testament.

A person could make a legitimate case that the popes are false prophets because the message in the RCC doctrines are not from God, but derived in part from the mystery babylon religion begun by Semiramis and Nimrod. Even so, the pope(s) is not "the" false prophet of Revelation.

The point of the president, that there have been many presidents, each the leader of the Untied States one at a time - could be applied to the 7 kings of Revelation 17, which are associated with the city which the harlot sits, Rome. The 7 kings are of that one fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire.

The 7th king, the 7th head, which will be mortally wounded and recovered (sometime in the future after he comes), when he comes, he must continue for a short space.

That continuing is the Antichrist, who will be slain, then comes back to life (continuing); and the short space is the 42 months in Revelation 13, whereby he will be possessed by the spirit of the beast ascending out of the bottomless pit.

Please take a hard look at the parts I highlighted.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
 
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bibletruth469

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Have you all listened to the article that I posted earlier in this thread by Thomas ice? He has done a lot of research analyzing the Greek words in the text . There have been so many bible translations and some are not as good as others when it comes to the original language .

I believe that the falling away from the Greek word means departure which is the rapture . Not a departure from the faith , but a true departure. I think the article has brought up some very important points that can be directly linked to scripture.
 
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Douggg

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Have you all listened to the article that I posted earlier in this thread by Thomas ice? He has done a lot of research analyzing the Greek words in the text . There have been so many bible translations and some are not as good as others when it comes to the original language .

I believe that the falling away from the Greek word means departure which is the rapture . Not a departure from the faith , but a true departure. I think the article has brought up some very important points that can be directly linked to scripture.
I am anytime rapture view. Let's say though that the rapture is referred to in 2thessalonians2. I don't know that necessarily means pre-70th week. Or sometimes after it begins, but before the Antichrist goes into the temple showing himself to (claim) to be God, near the middle of the 70th week.

I thought this guy had an interesting commentary, but listen closely to last 30 seconds or so (minute 9:45 to the end)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ELApSSiKEQ
 
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TPeterY

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I'll really have to give this some thought. I had always considered those who receive the mark, name, or number were still able to repent and be cleansed of it.

I think where I'm having difficulty is that I'm persuaded it's a past/current event rather than future. By that I mean the falling away and revealing of the "man" of sin. The mark is still inconclusive for me at this point.

You seem a little concern in your reply.

I know I'm making an assumption but just in case, the mark of the beast isn't out yet. It won't be till shortly after the abomination of desolation. By then, the Antichrist and false prophet will perform an occult ritual to deceive everyone there and convince them to take the mark. And those that won't will get their heads cut-off.

Jesus warned readers not to go out to the desert in Matthew 24:26. That's what this verse is for.

And it's not a tattoo or the RFID chip, nor is it mark a number.

John lived 2k years ago, back at then, Greek was the primary language of his time. Today it's English in the world and Arabic in the middle east. What he saw in his vision of the future he thought was Greek.
 
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Douggg

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You seem a little concern in your reply.

I know I'm making an assumption but just in case, the mark of the beast isn't out yet. It won't be till shortly after the abomination of desolation. By then, the Antichrist and false prophet will perform an occult ritual to deceive everyone there and convince them to take the mark. And those that won't will get their heads cut-off.

Jesus warned readers not to go out to the desert in Matthew 24:26. That's what this verse is for.

And it's not a tattoo or the RFID chip, nor is it mark a number.

John lived 2k years ago, back at then, Greek was the primary language of his time. Today it's English in the world and Arabic in the middle east. What he saw in his vision of the future he thought was Greek.
John I think did know the name of the beast as John witnessed the events of Revelation 13, but was not allowed to reveal it directly. John could see the end times Antichrist-beast in Revelation 13. But John could not see, in Revelation 17, the beast while the beast was in the bottomless pit. He was told by the angel in Revelation 17 about the beast being in the bottomless pit.

The mark is not unconnected to the beast's name.


Revelation14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
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TPeterY

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John I think did know the name of the beast as John witnessed the events of Revelation 13, but was not allowed to reveal it directly. John could see the end times Antichrist-beast in Revelation 13. But John could not see, in Revelation 17, the beast while the beast was in the bottomless pit. He was told by the angel in Revelation 17 about the beast being in the bottomless pit.

The mark is not unconnected to the beast's name.


Revelation14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Yeah, I can see that. It's very much connect.

Bismillah
 
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Douggg

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Yeah, I can see that. It's very much connect.

Bismillah
Well, it's not the Bismilah because Islam will not be factor in those last 42 months, and it is against fundamental Islamic beliefs to worship a man claiming to be God.

The mark has got to have something to do with the Antichrist's name. I am considering a mark/name connection in similitude like in electricity, the symbol of "ohms" is like an upside down "u". When the symbol is read, it is pronounced simply as "ohms", like 100 ohms. The ohm is a measure of electrical resistance as named after German physicist Georg Simon Ohm. Of course that train of thought could be completely off.
 
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TPeterY

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Well, it's not the Bismilah because Islam will not be factor in those last 42 months, and it is against fundamental Islamic beliefs to worship a man claiming to be God.

The mark has got to have something to do with the Antichrist's name.

Dougg, Islam won't be attacking Israel in the first half of the tribulation. The Antichrist will make a covenant with them and not attack till the middle of the tribulation with all those Islamic nations surrounding her.

And of course the Antichrist will speak blasphemy against God and Muslims will continue to follow him. It's because Christians and Muslims don't worship the same God. We worship Yahweh, Muslims worship allah. Muslims hate Christianity and their goal during the last 42 months will be to convert or kill all Christians. They will love you if you speak blasphemy the Christian God, but kill you if you mock allah. They deny The Father and The Son, and even claim Jesus is a Muslim.

Look at Daniel 11:36-37. Notice how it saids "God" with a capital G? It's referring to Yahweh, not allah. In verse 37, who is the God of his fathers, it's Yahweh. God created us all, not allah. The Antichrist speak blasphemy about God (Yahweh), and only magnify himself above every god.

Daniel 11:36-37 (NKJV)
36) “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37) He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan+11:36-37&version=NKJV

But there is one thing I do agree with you, the mark does have the Antichrist's name in Bismillah.
 
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Douggg

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Dougg, Islam won't be attacking Israel in the first half of the tribulation. The Antichrist will make a covenant with them and not attack till the middle of the tribulation with all those Islamic nations surrounding her.

Islam will no longer exist entering the 7 years. Big changes are coming.
 
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bibletruth469

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TPeterY said:
Bibletruth's got the right answer with that video in thread #12. The falling away happens after the church is gone, and the ones left on earth are the unrighteous. Most people left behind are described in 2nd Tim 3. Some will even be Christians, the lukewarm type. 2 Timothy 3:1-5 (CEV) What People Will Be Like in the Last Days 1) You can be certain that in the last days there will be some very hard times. 2) People will love only themselves and money. They will be proud, stuck-up, rude, and disobedient to their parents. They will also be ungrateful, godless, 3) heartless, and hateful. Their words will be cruel, and they will have no self-control or pity. These people will hate everything that is good. 4) They will be sneaky, reckless, and puffed up with pride. Instead of loving God, they will love pleasure. 5) Even though they will make a show of being religious, their religion won’t be real. Don’t have anything to do with such people. The main purpose of the tribulation is to prepare as many people possible for the second coming of Christ, but the another purpose of the tribulation is to humble those that turned away from God. Sometimes, God must put people under extreme measures to wake them up. The tribulation is not about a test of faith, it's a test of repentance. Joel 2:31-32 (NKJV) 31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 32) And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls. Acts 2:20-21 (NKJV) 20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 21) And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. Matthew 23:12 (NKJV) And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. For those that repent, they will be save from the tribulation and live into the millennium. Those that show great faith by not submitting to the antichrist will be resurrected at the end to reign in the millennium. If it not for the great tribulation ahead, there be less people to reign with Jesus during the millennium.


I believe that a person is either saved or lost. The lukewarm are the professing Christians IMO . They will be left behind. I do not believe that one can lose salvation but that is for another topic . Once a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise , they can't lose that.

I agree with most of what you mention in above post. I think where I differ in opinion is I believe the tribulation period will be for Israel to repent, not the church. The church will already be in heaven seven years before it starts. Therefore , the tribulation period is specifically for Israel to draw to repentance .
 
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bibletruth469

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James-49 said:
I'll really have to give this some thought. I had always considered those who receive the mark, name, or number were still able to repent and be cleansed of it. I think where I'm having difficulty is that I'm persuaded it's a past/current event rather than future. By that I mean the falling away and revealing of the "man" of sin. The mark is still inconclusive for me at this point.

Once a person receives the mark of the antichrist, that person has no chance of salvation. They already made the choice and will be lost forever.
 
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Douggg said:
I am anytime rapture view. Let's say though that the rapture is referred to in 2thessalonians2. I don't know that necessarily means pre-70th week. Or sometimes after it begins, but before the Antichrist goes into the temple showing himself to (claim) to be God, near the middle of the 70th week. I thought this guy had an interesting commentary, but listen closely to last 30 seconds or so (minute 9:45 to the end) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ELApSSiKEQ

I personally believe that the rapture can happen at any time but during the age of the church, not the tribulation. I believe that the rapture is number sensitive and not necessarily date sensitive. Once the fulness of the Gentiles come in ( the full number of Gentiles to saved) the rapture will happen and God the father will send Jesus to get his bride and bring them all home. It is very exciting to think about!

What was in the last minute of the clip? I didn't get that.
 
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