Falling away

James-49

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My question is a serious enquiry - not intended for flaming, bashing, or defaming. I know what I have concluded to this point, but there's been some good feedback on previous posts that gained me a better understanding.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Could "falling away" be in reference to the Reformation of 1517?
 

Codger

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My question is a serious enquiry - not intended for flaming, bashing, or defaming. I know what I have concluded to this point, but there's been some good feedback on previous posts that gained me a better understanding.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Could "falling away" be in reference to the Reformation of 1517?

Absolutely not... the historical answer is very simple...

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
(The Second Coming of Jesus) except there come a falling away first, (A better translation would be "Rebellion" - He was talking about the start of the war with Rome.) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (A reference to the Zealot terrorist leader who took over the Temple in 66AD Eleazar ben Simon - or possibly Eleazar ben Ananus)

The Disciples all believed that the Second Coming would occur immediately after the "Tribulation" of those days. (destruction and judgment of Israel in 70AD.) This all happened just 14 years later in 66AD. 2 Thess was written in 52AD.
 
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Douggg

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My question is a serious enquiry - not intended for flaming, bashing, or defaming. I know what I have concluded to this point, but there's been some good feedback on previous posts that gained me a better understanding.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Could "falling away" be in reference to the Reformation of 1517?
I would place the falling away after the 7years begin and the Antichrist has been perceived by the Jews to their long awaited messiah King of Israel.

I think the conditions of the world then, right after Gog/Magog is going to make a lot of people think maybe they are wrong about Jesus being the messiah, and the actual messiah is the Antichrist displaying what the Jews are expecting. And during that first 3 years or so, many in Christianity will be swayed to embrace him and move out of Christianity.

Which would be right before he goes into the temple claims to be God, in 2thessalonians2, revealing himself as the man of sin.

In Judaism, there is the notion that once the "real" messiah shows up, Christianity will gradually fade away.
 
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dfw69

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NO. It refers to a future time still to come.

I agree..still to come!

And I believe it refers to falling away from gospel laws and gospel truth ... Falling away from faith in Christ who is still to come when many believe he already has appeared and is here .. Believe it not...Jesus is still to come though an imposter has come...those true to the gospel continue to live by grace and not serve the law which the imposter Christ will impose
 
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James-49

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NO. It refers to a future time still to come.

I have a hard time resolving futurist, as well as preterist views. To me, it's like saying one lucky generation gets the tests and the rewards while all in between are basically cattle - striving to be grade A meat. To me it nullifies the encouragement that God has a plan for me or anyone.

That being said, I have seen what I consider valid points in both views.

Forgive me, John S, but I'm not intending to say you are one or the other - I'm just prefacing.

To see it as a future event has me somewhat stumped on our current religious system. The Christian religion throughout history has been marked by debauchery, greed, power struggles - and it is the largest persecutor of both Christians and Jews throughout its history. To my estimate, it's already a beast that many persons of God have "forsook".

I know you have demonstrated a good background of study. Could you expand on why it would be a future event?
 
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James-49

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Absolutely not... the historical answer is very simple...

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
(The Second Coming of Jesus) except there come a falling away first, (A better translation would be "Rebellion" - He was talking about the start of the war with Rome.) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (A reference to the Zealot terrorist leader who took over the Temple in 66AD Eleazar ben Simon - or possibly Eleazar ben Ananus)

The Disciples all believed that the Second Coming would occur immediately after the "Tribulation" of those days. (destruction and judgment of Israel in 70AD.) This all happened just 14 years later in 66AD. 2 Thess was written in 52AD.

Thank you, Codger. I know the same Greek word apostasia is used one other time in Acts he used it in reference to those who forsake the law of Moses.

Act 21:21
"And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."

According to Wikipedia:
apostasia ('a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person.

I'm unclear if Paul means it as a bad forsake, or a good forsake. Luther was considered apostate - but many of us would consider that in a good way.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

It was a very pronounced and far-reaching event where many abandoned or renounced the religion of the day - not Christ - the religion.

To me this could be considered a falling away - as in one worth noting by Paul.
 
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James-49

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I would place the falling away after the 7years begin and the Antichrist has been perceived by the Jews to their long awaited messiah King of Israel.

I think the conditions of the world then, right after Gog/Magog is going to make a lot of people think maybe they are wrong about Jesus being the messiah, and the actual messiah is the Antichrist displaying what the Jews are expecting. And during that first 3 years or so, many in Christianity will be swayed to embrace him and move out of Christianity.

Which would be right before he goes into the temple claims to be God, in 2thessalonians2, revealing himself as the man of sin.

In Judaism, there is the notion that once the "real" messiah shows up, Christianity will gradually fade away.

Interesting view - thank you, Douggg. I know the man of sin is expected as a future event, but I think the logistics cause me to question. Why would the devil come and introduce a "new" or "substitute" system at the end times when the corrupt and perverted versions of Christianity that he's fostered over two thousand years is plenty?

Also, how could the devil prepare that man of sin without some advance awareness of the end time's occurrence that God's children don't have?
 
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James-49

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I agree..still to come!

And I believe it refers to falling away from gospel laws and gospel truth ... Falling away from faith in Christ who is still to come when many believe he already has appeared and is here .. Believe it not...Jesus is still to come though an imposter has come...those true to the gospel continue to live by grace and not serve the law which the imposter Christ will impose

Thank you, dfw69. This is what I answered to Codger - I think it applies again.

According to Wikipedia:
apostasia ('a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person.

I'm unclear if Paul means it as a bad forsake, or a good forsake. Luther was considered apostate - but many of us would consider that in a good way.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"
 
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dfw69

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Thank you, dfw69. This is what I answered to Codger - I think it applies again.

According to Wikipedia:
apostasia ('a defection or revolt') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person.

I'm unclear if Paul means it as a bad forsake, or a good forsake. Luther was considered apostate - but many of us would consider that in a good way.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

It is unclear I agree but with the man of sin here it's no doubt many will be deceived and so a falling away toward him def takes place

Also the gospel over and over warns that many fall away from the faith because hearts turn cold for one another and persecution arises..

.keeping the gospel faith till the end is always good sound advice :)
 
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dfw69

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But what is gospel faith ?.. Certainly not Jesus returning to institute Torah and Talmud laws... The gospel is forever ... The new covenant is forever... The old covenant will not rise again for long ... Perhaps only for a short season under the false messiah ... But not forever... The old will end and the new will reign supreme .. Forever ...

Keeping the faith or gospel laws will grant anyone eternal life ... Abuse of them cause wrath IMO

Wait on The Lord Jesus... Jesus will reign by the gospel laws and not Talmud and Torah laws
 
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James-49

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It is unclear I agree but with the man of sin here it's no doubt many will be deceived and so a falling away toward him def takes place

Also the gospel over and over warns that many fall away from the faith because hearts turn cold for one another and persecution arises..

.keeping the gospel faith till the end is always good sound advice

But what is gospel faith ?.. Certainly not Jesus returning to institute Torah and Talmud laws... The gospel is forever ... The new covenant is forever... The old covenant will not rise again for long ... Perhaps only for a short season under the false messiah ... But not forever... The old will end and the new will reign supreme .. Forever ...

Keeping the faith or gospel laws will grant anyone eternal life ... Abuse of them cause wrath IMO

Wait on The Lord Jesus... Jesus will reign by the gospel laws and not Talmud and Torah laws

I see your points and fully agree with "keeping the gospel faith till the end is always good sound advice".

But I think falling away from the faith, and falling away from the religion are two different things. I consider that religion has grown more perverted from the original Gospel - yet the best place for religion to take shelter and thrive is under the cover of that same Gospel.

A notable event would certainly be a falling away from the Christian faith - but the Reformation was a notable event that has already occurred in falling away from the religion.

Since we're told by Paul and John that antichrist is already working in the 1st century and that the mystery of lawlessness is at work, it leads me to consider it's been brewing and building over history. The deception would use the tools at hand.

And again, the logistics as I shared with Douggg cause me to question:

Why would the devil come and introduce a "new" or "substitute" system at the end times when the corrupt and perverted versions of Christianity that he's fostered over two thousand years is plenty?

Also, how could the devil prepare that man of sin without some advance awareness of the end time's occurrence that God's children don't have?
 
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James-49

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Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Thomas Ice - Pre-Trib.org - YouTube

FYI , very interesting and I personally agree with this perspective .

Thank you, bibletruth469. I have wondered the same thing. It does somewhat conflict with my understanding that the wheat harvest is the rapture (not sure if I would use that word, but for familiarity) - the event of the 6th seal. I'm thinking Paul was discussing the deception that, if it were possible, the elect would be deceived. I don't read an immediacy of events, just a consecutiveness, so there could be some distance between the falling away and Christ's return.
 
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dfw69

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I see your points and fully agree with "keeping the gospel faith till the end is always good sound advice".

But I think falling away from the faith, and falling away from the religion are two different things. I consider that religion has grown more perverted from the original Gospel - yet the best place for religion to take shelter and thrive is under the cover of that same Gospel.

A notable event would certainly be a falling away from the Christian faith - but the Reformation was a notable event that has already occurred in falling away from the religion.

Since we're told by Paul and John that antichrist is already working in the 1st century and that the mystery of lawlessness is at work, it leads me to consider it's been brewing and building over history. The deception would use the tools at hand.

No doubt falling away from the true faith and falling away from false religions have occurred since the beginnings of Christianity ..


And again, the logistics as I shared with Douggg cause me to question:

Why would the devil come and introduce a "new" or "substitute" system at the end times when the corrupt and perverted versions of Christianity that he's fostered over two thousand years is plenty?

Also, how could the devil prepare that man of sin without some advance awareness of the end time's occurrence that God's children don't have?

The goal is to rid Christianity altogether ..if satan has a better means to rid the problem...Why would he not implement it?

He has not succeeded in causing new believers to see the truth of the gospel over the many years

Through disbelief deception lies and falsehood which He is the master of ....seeks to conquer the world because he knows his time is short
 
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bibletruth469

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James-49 said:
Thank you, bibletruth469. I have wondered the same thing. It does somewhat conflict with my understanding that the wheat harvest is the rapture (not sure if I would use that word, but for familiarity) - the event of the 6th seal. I'm thinking Paul was discussing the deception that, if it were possible, the elect would be deceived. I don't read an immediacy of events, just a consecutiveness, so there could be some distance between the falling away and Christ's return.

I do believe that the wheat harvest is the rapture but I am not convinced that it will take place at the 6 th seal. I am thinking that it happens in revelation 4:1 when John is called up to heaven. Note: the church is not mentioned in revelation again until the end.

No one knows for sure about this timing. The exact timing of the rapture is not mentioned in scripture. However, there are many pictures, parables and symbols that can give us clues.

The elect that you mentioned above are not the church in this particular passage , but are the people who live on earth during the tribulation IMO . The church will be ' caught up' before this time frame. Note: the elect can either be Israel or the church depending on the context of scripture. ( this doesn't mean that Israel turns into the church as some believe ) Or the elect , like in Matt 24 is anyone who has accepted Christ as their lord and savior .
 
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TPeterY

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My question is a serious enquiry - not intended for flaming, bashing, or defaming. I know what I have concluded to this point, but there's been some good feedback on previous posts that gained me a better understanding.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Could "falling away" be in reference to the Reformation of 1517?

Bibletruth's got the right answer with that video in thread #12. The falling away happens after the church is gone, and the ones left on earth are the unrighteous.

Most people left behind are described in 2nd Tim 3. Some will even be Christians, the lukewarm type.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (CEV)
What People Will Be Like in the Last Days


1) You can be certain that in the last days there will be some very hard times. 2) People will love only themselves and money. They will be proud, stuck-up, rude, and disobedient to their parents. They will also be ungrateful, godless, 3) heartless, and hateful. Their words will be cruel, and they will have no self-control or pity. These people will hate everything that is good. 4) They will be sneaky, reckless, and puffed up with pride. Instead of loving God, they will love pleasure. 5) Even though they will make a show of being religious, their religion won’t be real. Don’t have anything to do with such people.


The main purpose of the tribulation is to prepare as many people possible for the second coming of Christ, but the another purpose of the tribulation is to humble those that turned away from God. Sometimes, God must put people under extreme measures to wake them up. The tribulation is not about a test of faith, it's a test of repentance.

Joel 2:31-32 (NKJV)
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32) And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.

For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.


Acts 2:20-21 (NKJV)
20) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21) And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.


Matthew 23:12 (NKJV)
And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.


For those that repent, they will be save from the tribulation and live into the millennium. Those that show great faith by not submitting to the antichrist will be resurrected at the end to reign in the millennium.

If it not for the great tribulation ahead, there be less people to reign with Jesus during the millennium.
 
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Douggg

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Interesting view - thank you, Douggg. I know the man of sin is expected as a future event, but I think the logistics cause me to question. Why would the devil come and introduce a "new" or "substitute" system at the end times when the corrupt and perverted versions of Christianity that he's fostered over two thousand years is plenty?

imo, after the resurrection and God's plan of Salvation from the fall became understood - Satan was forced to go to plan B, which is actually imo a repeat of the fall in the garden of Eden that man can be like God. Which Satan's agenda is to be like the Most High and be worshiped.

The Antichrist will be Satan's protege' to mankind convincing humans that they can reach God-hood, which would include eternal life on certain level.

Also, how could the devil prepare that man of sin without some advance awareness of the end time's occurrence that God's children don't have?
I would package that question a little differently. The eventual man of sin, before he reaches that stage, himself will not be a Christian. So he will be thinking from the outset that Christianity is false and will not be reading into the prophecies like Christians do of the end times. And even if he is totally aware, he won't believe them.

He is going to have a Jewish perspective which is that Christianity is all made up, beginning with the resurrection. He will not view himself as the Anti-messiah, a concept foreign to Judaism, but will fancy himself as the one chosen by God to be the real Jewish messiah.

As a Jew, the door to the occult is Kabbalah. In Kabbalah practice, there is a notion that the adept at Kabbalah, can harness the power of the angels to carry out the adept's agenda. That is the craft it appears the Antichrist will practice before he even comes on the scene as the leader of Europe. Getting deeper and deeper, he will eventually, after great success in his rise to become the King of Israel messiah, that he will become convinced in his heart that he has reached God-hood - half way through the seven years.

In Judaism, their concept of Satan would seem outrageous to Christians. They will tell you that Satan is the obedient servant to God, carrying out a job as the adversary, as assigned to him. That Satan has no free will to oppose God.

So with that sort of mentality, it is easy to see how the Antichrist will think he can control the adversary, having Satan carry out his (the Antichrist's) own agenda, and even that to becoming the messiah.

The bible clearly warns not to be consulting with them in the spirit world. Kabbalalists take that warning as being conditional, that a person can go into the spirit world to grow closer to God as long as certain protocols are followed. It is a twisted way of thinking, but that is what they are trying to do.

There is an online read of the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina, using Kabbalah practice, who attempted to bring in the redemption, by capturing and binding Samael and Lilith. It exemplifies the Jewish Kabbalists' thinking. It is a really good read and I think every Christian should read it as an eye opener. Not that we should ever try to emulate it; it's definitely something never to get involved in, but to be aware of what the kabbalists are thinking. This link is a Jewish site, not a Christian one.

Dreaming of Moshiach: The Story: Rise and Fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina

When the Antichrist gets to the point of thinking he has obtained God-hood, commits the sin of going into the temple and portraying himself as such - and God has him killed for that outrageous act, and brings him back alive.

It is then, that the beast comes out of the bottomless pit, the disembodied unclean spirit of Nimrod, to possess him. That's when not only is the end time Antichrist is involved, but what essentially is a demon possessing him that will drive the Antichrist-beast's actions and thinking.

From that online reading about the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina.... things went terribly wrong.

"Yosef and his remaining student buried the 2 dead students and afterwards, rested. The demon possessed the other 2 students and perished in great suffering that the demon inflicted on them.
After this, Joseph went to the city of Sidon, where he settled. His ways turned very evil. He saw that he did not succeed and since he heard from the Divine Voice that he lost this world and the world-to-come, he made a conventant with the malicious Lilith and handed himself to her and she became his wife. He polluted every way possible and used Holy Name of HKB'H to do evil. Every night he would conjure spirits and devils to fetch him his heart's desire.
He continued his evil ways and had more women than possible until the wife of the Greece king. He had her brought to him every night and in the morning, he would give orders to return her. One day the queen told her husband, "Every night I dream that I'm in a certain place and a man sleeps with me but find myself in the morning in my bed".


....there is more at that link.

Having read my post above, please consider these verses. I would firmly plant these verses as a central part of my end times understanding of the Antichrist. See the connections to Kabballah and the Antichrist?

Daniel 8:23
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

2Thessalonians2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
 
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My question is a serious enquiry - not intended for flaming, bashing, or defaming. I know what I have concluded to this point, but there's been some good feedback on previous posts that gained me a better understanding.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Let's look at the translation of "falling away" first.
YLT says "dissension"
WEB says "departure"
RSV says "rebellion"
NRSV Anglicize says "revolt"
New Living says "great rebellion against God"
Amplified says "falling away of those who profess to be Christians"
NAS says "apostasy"

So something will happen to cause people to turn away from their faith, those who weren't saved to begin with, like the seeds planted in shallow soil or when the thorns grew around them, they were choked to death. Rebelliousness is part of the nature of sin.
We have also seen a massive movement of rebellion in the Middle East: Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc., all which can be labeled as revolts. Maybe it has nothing to do with Christians at all. Since the context of the verse deals with one man of sin, then it's maybe his rebellion against/falling away from Christ, but now is anti-Christ and anti-Jew. He Ignites many nations against Israel ... what nations? Islamic nations.
Look at the Middle East -- ready for war.



Could "falling away" be in reference to the Reformation of 1517
?
No.
 
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