The pre-tribulation Rapture theory is a Satanic Deception.
- Thread starter Riberra
- Start date
- Status
Douggg
anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
- May 28, 2009
- 28,776
- 3,419
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
Only God knows when the rapture is going to happen. We should all get down on our knees and thank God for His wisdom, every creations in awe of Him.. In God, I trust.
Upvote
0
No need to get pushy John. I was merely telling you there's no double rapture.
But if you believe in prophecy based on the title of a thread, have you seen the thread titled Jesus will return April 10th 2015?
I NEVER said that there would be a double rapture - YOU did.
I have said, and will ALWAYS say, that there will NEVER be a Pre-Trib Rapture.
That is false teaching.
Upvote
0
Well to you it may be amusing....howevever for me, it's to look forward to.
Just think, when Jesus comes you'll be in shock...because (if you're alive), on the way to meet Him in the air you'll understand how you misunderstood.
Jesus said "I AM ALPHA and OMEGA"...and you say..."not yet".
Upvote
0
iamlamad
Lamad
- Jun 8, 2013
- 9,616
- 744
- 78
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Word of Faith
- Marital Status
- Married
When are your going to wake up and see the truth? The harlot religion is the BEAST's religion. WHERE is the Beast? Did you forget, he entered the temple IN JERUSALEM? Revelation has NOTHING to do with the Vatican. That is man's reasoning without the Holy Spirit. Did you forget about the image in the temple, the abomination, and the 42 months of authority? Did you forget about the MARK? Did you forget WHERE the beast is?
I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
These waters represent all the nations the Beast deceives. How many? ALL.
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
WHO? All the kings of the earth. All the leaders of all nations. They ALL wonder after the beast and worship him. What do they worship? The IMAGE the Beast sets up in the temple in JERUSALEM, and the mark of the Image. This is what causes the days of GT: people refuse to take the mark and refuse to bow to the image. WHERE again is this image? It is set up in the TEMPLE in JERUSALEM.
I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Once again, we are back to the seven heads, five of whom were fallen or ended at the time John wrote: then were Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, and Greece. Each of these empires ruled over Israel. All were bad. Some were very bad. Antiochus Epiphanes, being a type of the Beast was one of the very bad. The King in the days of Esther was very bad; had it now been for Esther at that time and place, there would have been another Hitler. Please note, these empires had NOTHING to do with the Vatican! You think Nebuchadnezzar bowed to an idol of Mary?
the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
WHO will be reigning over the world during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week? It will be Revelation's two beasts. Did you forget that the beast was "like unto a leopard?" Refer to Daniel 7:6. This is a strong hint that the Beast will be like Alexander the Great. Did you forget this beast had feet like a bear? Refer to Daniel 7:5. This is a strong hint the Beast will be like Medopersia. They were famous for fielding HUGE armies. Did you forget this beast had a lion's mouth? This is a strong hint the Beast of Rev. 13 will resemble Nebuchadnezzar. What was he famous for? Of course the great image, 60 cubits tall, and 6 cubits wide (probably at the shoulders)? Do you realize this is two of the numbers in the mark of the beast, 600, 60 and 6?
These things have NOTHING to do with the Vatican. These things show us the 7 nations whom the Beast will begin his rule will be nations in the COMMON land area surrounding Israel: of ancient Assyria, Babylon, Medopersia, Greece and finally Rome, and that this Beast as a man will do similar things that these ancient rulers did, like Nebuchadnezzar erecting an huge image and forcing people to worship it.
Once again, WHERE will this beast (rev 13) be for most of the last 3 1/2 years? JERUSALEM. Not in the Vatican.
He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain."
WHY Jerusalem? It is very plain and simple:
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city
In your mind, this is speaking of the Vatican: how silly can some answers be? NOT the Vatican, the new temple in JERUSALEM.
WHOSE PEOPLE? The JEWS. Where do many Jews live? ISRAEL.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
WHERE IS JUDEA? Of course, in ISRAEL, were Daniel's people are.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days
WHERE are these fleeing FROM? Of course Judea, exactly where Jesus said. Where are they going? Is this the Vatican? No, of course not. Many think they will flee to Petra. WHY are they fleeing from Judea? Because the BEAST is in Jerusalem.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
WHO is the Beast going after first? JEWS and others of Israel who fled.
WHERE is the Beast here? Of course in JERUSALEM. This is what the book of Revelation is about: ISRAEL and the Jews and other tribes living in ISRAEL. The 70th week of Daniel goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16, MUCH of Revelation. Revelation 13 and 17 are tied together: it is the SAME BEAST, one chapter majoring on the man, one majoring on his empire.
This man of sin, possessed by Satan himself, becomes the Beast of Rev. 13. He and his False Prophet will deceive THE ENTIRE WORLD from the city of Jerusalem, making Jerusalem the GREAT WH**E BABYLON. The deception here will be on a level NEVER SEEN BEFORE on earth. NOTHING the Vatican has ever done will hold a candle to what this Beast and False Prophet will do in the way of deception.
By the way, Jerusalem is in ISRAEL, which is in the MIDDLE EAST, not in Italy. John was not writing about Italy.
I know, you want to separate chapters 17 & 18 from the rest of the book, make this harlot woman something different that the rest of Revelation, and this beast something different that the man of sin turned Beast. That just shows you know nothing of the Author's intent. Jesus is the Messiah. He was born in ISRAEL. He will return to ISRAEL. The Beast and False prophet will still be in Israel when they are taken.
Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
WHY has Babylon the Great Wh**e become the habitation of devils and every foul spirit? It is very simple, the BEAST is there (in Jerusalem) and the Beast is possessed by Satan. OF COURSE all devils will migrate to where Satan is.
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
What does this really mean? What is the intent of the Author? IT is the GREAT DECEPTION that will go out from Jerusalem to deceive the people of the world. This will be the very deception that this beast is the God of the Jews. with fire falling from heaven to prove it.
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Notice, this is the great city Babylon, which is a MYSTERY. It will be Babylon, the city that deceived the entire world, not the city of Jerusalem, that will never be found any more. Jerusalem will be rebuilt.
by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
This is referring the the sorceries of the Beast and False prophet deceiving the WORLD with "all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness."
Chapters 17 and 18 cannot be separated from the rest of the book.
Nuff said: the more you write, the more I see you have no idea as to the intent of the Author about much of Revelation.
LAMAD
Last edited:
Upvote
0
dfw69
Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
- Nov 16, 2011
- 8,273
- 826
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
It's still nonsense. There's no rapture after the Pre-Trib rapture.
Everyone knows there's no such thing as a double rapture.
Idk... I believe there may be 5 so called raptures
1 pretrib dead in Christ rise
2 those Christians alive are transformed never tasting death
3 144000 caught up to Zion in heaven
4 tribulation saints rise again after the tribulation
5 two witnesses rise up to heaven
All these events take place at different times... Sooo yeah ..more than one
Upvote
0
random person
1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
- Dec 10, 2013
- 3,646
- 262
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Democrat
dfw69 Idk... I believe there may be 5 so called raptures
1 pretrib dead in Christ rise
2 those Christians alive are transformed never tasting death
1 & 2 occur at the same time upon the return of Christ
3 144000 caught up to Zion in heaven
3 is the deliverance of church in Jerusalem before AD 70, these are the first fruits
4 tribulation saints rise again after the tribulation
4 are the martyrs of Jewish and Neronian persecutions that occurred during the 1st century
5 two witnesses rise up to heaven
the two witnesses are enterpreted various ways, symbolically as Moses and Elijah, religious and government authorities, literally as John the Baptist (Elijah, from Isaiah 40:3 & Malachi 3:1, prepared the way of the Lord, etc) and Jesus (Moses, from Deuteronomy 18:18, raise up a prophet greater than me), literally as Peter and Paul who both died during the reign of Nero Caesar, etc, etc.
All these events take place at different times... Sooo yeah ..more than one
What does Jesus say in John 5:28-29, John 6:39-40,44,54; 11:24? Or Paul say in Acts 24:15?
1 pretrib dead in Christ rise
2 those Christians alive are transformed never tasting death
1 & 2 occur at the same time upon the return of Christ
3 144000 caught up to Zion in heaven
3 is the deliverance of church in Jerusalem before AD 70, these are the first fruits
4 tribulation saints rise again after the tribulation
4 are the martyrs of Jewish and Neronian persecutions that occurred during the 1st century
5 two witnesses rise up to heaven
the two witnesses are enterpreted various ways, symbolically as Moses and Elijah, religious and government authorities, literally as John the Baptist (Elijah, from Isaiah 40:3 & Malachi 3:1, prepared the way of the Lord, etc) and Jesus (Moses, from Deuteronomy 18:18, raise up a prophet greater than me), literally as Peter and Paul who both died during the reign of Nero Caesar, etc, etc.
All these events take place at different times... Sooo yeah ..more than one
What does Jesus say in John 5:28-29, John 6:39-40,44,54; 11:24? Or Paul say in Acts 24:15?
Upvote
0
Douggg
anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
- May 28, 2009
- 28,776
- 3,419
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
The beast is in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17.
So? That is not where the woman is located.
The beast is in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17, which is the Chapter containing the great harlot that sitteth on many waters. Not Jerusalem. But the Vatican, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, located in Rome the city of the seven hills (mountains)
It does not say the nations the beast deceives. It says the harlot that sitteth upon many waters: Start over.
The Pope where-ever he goes draws an official ceremonial welcome from the leaders of all the nations of the earth.
They worship the beast and the dragon, Revelation 13:4. But the beast is not the harlot.
Where the AOD is setup has nothing to do with the great harlot that sits on many waters. The great harlot is not Jerusalem.
The heads are five kings associated the place of the seven mountains where the woman sits. The woman sits in Rome. The five kings fallen were Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius.
The kings of Assyria, Babylon, Medes, Persian, Greece, never ruled from Jerusalem. The five kings of the Roman Empire, ruled from Rome.
Right it has nothing to do with the Vatican, nor the harlot, nor the seven kings. Antiochus Epiphanes, btw, was of none of those empires you listed. Start over.
And the ten kings of the end times fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire.
Do you realize that two out of three ain't bad, Meatloaf, You Tube? That makes about as much sense as you are making.
Right those have nothing to do with the great harlot.
What does those fallen empires have to do with the kingdom of the ten kings in Daniel 7.
The Vatican, the great harlot, will be destroyed at the beginning of the last half of the 7 years.
Right, Jerusalem is not the great harlot. The great harlot will have already been destroyed long before then.
The Lord Jesus Christ returns to rescue the Jews and Jerusalem, the apple of God's eye. Jerusalem is not the great harlot. The Vatican which had adopted in to their doctrines the base religion of ancient tower of Babel, and has mixed that religion with Christianity.
Of course, the AOD will be setup in the temple in Jerusalem. The great harlot is the Vatican, which God judges, and has the ten kings carry out his will. God rescues the Jews and Jerusalem, and Jesus reigns and rules from where? Jerusalem.15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
WHERE IS JUDEA? Of course, in ISRAEL, were Daniel's people are.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days
WHERE are these fleeing FROM? Of course Judea, exactly where Jesus said. Where are they going? Is this the Vatican? No, of course not. Many think they will flee to Petra. WHY are they fleeing from Judea? Because the BEAST is in Jerusalem.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
random person
1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
- Dec 10, 2013
- 3,646
- 262
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Democrat
I don't eat preterist processed meat ...but thanks anyway
The mark of your error is that the resurrection occurs on the Last Day. Not 367,555 (1,007 years x 365 days) days before the Last Day.
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead AT his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Timothy 4:1
If the pretrib premillennialism were correct, hadn't Christ already appeared 1,007 years (the Rapture) & 1,000 years (Millennial kingdom) previously.
But 2 Timothy 4:1 says Christ judges the living and dead at His appearance with His kingdom. So, obviously, Christ made no previous appearances (the Rapture and millennial kingdom) with His kingdom before the one and final resurrection and the one and final judgment.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
dfw69
Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
- Nov 16, 2011
- 8,273
- 826
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Resurrections happens several times and not one specific day ...there is a several resurrections before the millennium and one after the millennium
So 2 major ones
1 Resurrections of dead in Christ on one day... then tribulation saints on another day...and finally the two witnesses on another day...Together make one whole people before the millennium
2 all the dead or lost after the millennium are resurrected
This refers to a judgement seat of Christ ...Christ will judge who are saints and who are not to be risen ... Those alive are those judge who will stand before him in his kingdom... Many are condemn to death for their treatment on humanity...if one kills with the sword he must be killed in the same manner ...reaping what he sowed
No idea what your are talking about here... The pretrib rapture has not happen.. Nor the millennium .. Both yet to take place
The judgement is a judgement of who gets resurrected and who await their resurrection... For the dead outside of Christ will too be resurrected ... 1000 years later after Christ comes... All future
Hope this clarifies
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
Your error is that the term "the last day" means the last period of time, not the last 24 hour period.
Upvote
0
bibletruth469
Joyful
- Apr 14, 2013
- 787
- 63
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
John S said:
The 144,000 are Jewish men who are the first fruits to be saved in the tribulation. They will listen to the 2 witnesses proclaiming the gospel of Christ and will become saved. This all will take place after the rapture of the church as the church will already be in heaven at this point.
The church and Israel are different. They are not the same. The church has not replaced Israel and never will.
The elect in Matthew 24 are those who are left on the earth alive after the tribulation . Many people would have already died for their faith during this time frame. The elect are the ones who did not take the mark and became saved by receiving Christ as lord and savior.
Upvote
0
dfw69
Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
- Nov 16, 2011
- 8,273
- 826
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Yes I agree...
I believe the tribulations saints will awaken and not follow the newly formed system of a messiah reigning in Jerusalem whom many being deceived hold him as Christ ... They will await the true Christ and his saints return ...or at least try to survive with their beliefs though persecuted because of the new system
Upvote
0
I would hope you know the difference between a rapture and a resurrection.
#1 = resurrection
#2 = rapture
#3 = Nothing happens. The 144k never leaves earth. Zion is on earth. (see below)
#4 = resurrection
#5 = resurrection
_________________
= One rapture (no double rapture)
Nice try!
Micah 4:7 (NKJV)
I will make the lame a remnant,
And the outcast a strong nation;
So the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on, even forever.
Zechariah 2:10-13 (ERV)
10) The Lord says,
Zion, be happy, because I am coming,
and I will live in your city.
11) At that time people from many nations
will come to me.
They will become my people,
and I will live in your city.
Then you will know it was the Lord All-Powerful
who sent me to tell you these things.
12) The Lord will again choose Jerusalem to be his special city.
Judah will be his share of the holy land.
13) Everyone, be quiet!
The Lord is coming out of his holy house.
Isaiah 24:23 (ERV)
The Lord will rule as king on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
His Glory will be shown to the city leaders with such brightness that
the moon will be embarrassed
and the sun will be ashamed.
Psalm 110:1-2 (ERV)
1) The Lord said to my lord,[a]
Sit at my right side, while I put your enemies under your control.
2) The Lord will cause your kingdom to grow, beginning at Zion,
until you rule the lands of your enemies!
You did forget about the 2nd resurrection at the end of the millennium.
Shame on you for forgetting the biggest resurrection ever. [Rev 20:13]
.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Ebedmelech, I honestly don't find any of your preaching amusing. It's just a nice word I'm using to cover up how I really think about the deception.
I hope you'll realize the consequences ahead for preaching to everyone that we're currently living in the millennium combined with the preterist teaching that all the events leading up to the second coming occurred in 70 AD is utmost unbiblical.
However, good luck to you and I hope you'll find the truth in the bible. Do look up scriptures about false teaching, it'll be a good wake-up call if you believe the bible and not the teachings of men (preterism).
Last edited:
Upvote
0
dfw69
Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
- Nov 16, 2011
- 8,273
- 826
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Yes I do
Why can two groups be raptured at different times?
Elijah was raptured so was Enoch ... And at two different times
The rapture of those alive are changed into god like beings
The rapture of the 144000 to heaven for Zion is in heaven .. The Zion on earth is a copy... Not true Zion ... But they are not changed ... They are translate to heaven for protection.. They are the manchild of rev 12... They are to be translated as Enoch and Elijah were
There can be more than one rapture as proven by Enoch and Elijah
these resurrections and raptures happen before the millennium and yes the dead are resurrected after 1000 years
All these 6 events whether transformed dead or alive ....all appear before god in heaven ... So all are raptured up to heaven
The dead in Christ resurrected are raptured up
The living Christians are change to the image of his son and raptured up
The 144000 are raptured up alive
The tribulation saints are resurrected and raptured up
The two witnesses are resurrected and raptured up
And the dead or lost are resurrected and stand before gods throne in heaven so they are raptured up as well
Last edited:
Upvote
0
#2 which is about 1 Cor 15:51-55 have nothing to do with a pre-tribulation "rapture" but is rather a transformation from a body of flesh to a spiritual body for those still alive which will occurs when Jesus return at the End of the Tribulation.
The fundamental error in all the 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed. First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium. Read the below Scripture carefully and put out of your mind all that false 'Rapture' stuff. The below Scripture speaks of us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. Those who are asleep (dead) have already changed into their spiritual body at the moment of their individual deaths. Their flesh corpse is the only thing in the grave. But those who shall still be living when Christ returns must also go into their spiritual bodies, but the are changed without actually dying a flesh death, they just discard these flesh 'Tabernacles' and the spiritual man emerges. For the in the Millennium we are no longer in our flesh bodies, but rather, we are in our spiritual bodies.
1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)
Source:
The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)
Source:
The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
B
Bible2
Guest
Note that the Bible doesn't say that the 144,000 are meant for captivity.
Whereas at the future point of time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It's near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).
After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).
The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.
The 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).
Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).
Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who've been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).
The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.
The way this will work is: 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).
It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).
*******
Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus when the catching up together (rapture) of the church will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).
At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
--
The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).
The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
B
Bible2
Guest
Jesus said that there is going to be a rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3.
The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).
Upvote
0
- Status
