Is transgender a lie?

Joykins · Jun 3, 2014

Devnet said:
I feel weird saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

To be honest, it was originally my intention to not post in this thread. I'm not very interested in transgenderism, and this lack of interest generally leads me to the conclusion that I don't have much to add to the discussion. I simply do not care if someone identifies as a man or as a woman. If someone who was assigned male at birth indicates that they're a woman, fine. If someone who was assigned female at birth indicates that they're a man, fine. I don't care. They can use whatever restroom they want, wear whatever clothes they want, have their birth certificate changed to say whatever they want, marry whomever they want, and it simply does not matter to me. My response is a very firm shrug.

But what I am profoundly interested in is biology, specifically genetics, and it really bothers me when people try to present genetics (specifically the X and Y chromosome) as simplistic and clear in order to make an argument against transgenderism; this kind of action does great violence to genetics. Genetics is many things (magnificent, fascinating, powerful, glorious, inspiring . . . ) but it isn't simple or clear. Minimizing the amazing complexity of genetics in order to further a political point just isn't something I can get on-board with.

So I'm going to ask (in vain, I'm sure) that people not make statements like, "It's easy: anyone with two X chromosomes is a woman and anyone with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome is a man." It isn't that easy, it has never been that easy, and it will never be that easy. I cannot express the incredible, transcendent joy I experience when I learn about how biology and genetics actually operate in the world, and to watch this truth be mutilated so that people can insist that moral issues are as simple as pretend-simple biology (as opposed to true-complicated biology) is painful to me.

I think it's safe to say that XY and penis is human male and XX and vagina is human woman, e.g. biological sex, BUT that there are exceptions to this rule. In terms of gender (why do I keep thinking "people have sex, nouns have gender"?), the social and mental aspect of gender is usually consonant with biological sex, but, again there are exceptions, and we need to treat those people also as human beings created in the image of God who are dealing the best they can with a very complicated issue, and not some kind of deviant freak and threat to all the little girls in the potty.

loveofourlord · Jun 3, 2014

Inkfingers said:
What if they become a dragon? Or an Ewok?

Hermaphrodites are a sex in the same way that a deformed limb is a different kind of limb, or blindness is a different kind of vision.

They are a disability, not a sex; being neither make nor female because they cannot procreate.

Sorry, is there something about "biology of procreation" that you are misunderstanding? The sexes are defined as and by the two complementary roles they play in procreation.

So again, is someone who is born female, and becomes male at puberty male or female? I would assume male by your standards, then how is it any different if instead for the other 99.99% of those like this it's a thing of the mind not the body? We know that changes at birth and such can effect how much someone is male or female, both how they look, and how they feel act.

All of you that think things are both black and white have no clue about the reality of life, yet claim so hard to know whats what.

Hermaphrodites are born a certain way thats the fact they arn't what you call one sex or the other, but sure lets dissmiss them, less dimiss everyone thats ambiguous about their sex at birth, lets ignore evrything that doesn't fit into your box so you can still define things as in that box.

Cute Tink · Jun 3, 2014

South Bound said:
But you did imply so by stating that that was the message and then quoting me. I wasn't angry at you. I was just clarifying that I didn't say that.

I apologize for not making it more clear as to who said what. You have been rather polite and I thank you for that.

Rather than being comfortable in your body by further indulging your sin, why not repent and receive Christ and be comfortable knowing that you have peace and amity with God, and that Christ has already fought the battle on your behalf?

It's a simple suggestion, but I have a complex response.

Let's set aside my personal beliefs as to God for the moment. I know quite a few trans people who have prayed for this to go away and did so for years to no avail. I don't have any reason to believe this would work any differently for me.

However, I spent from around age 6 (little hazy back that far) to age 32 just trying to be happy as a male and hoping that this weird feeling that it wasn't me to go away. I suppressed my desire to dress and behave in a female manner as best I could, though some people have told me that despite that effort they still knew in the end. Finally admitting to myself that this is who I am and finally being myself is the only thing that has brought me any internal peace.

I am very certain that if there were a way to simply take a pill or get a particular treatment that would have brought my brain into agreement with my body, I would have done it in a heartbeat. The problem is that they don't have that available as an option and I didn't have the time to sit around and wait for one.

loveofourlord · Jun 3, 2014

Joykins said:
My feeling is that while a transgender person does not owe the general public any details about their background, the fact that they are transgender should be disclosed to a potential partner as a dating relationship appears to be headed in a "serious" direction.

I agree, though untill the point at which someone can literally change their gender 100% of the way, there will need to be some disclosure. Because if someone is dating a guy or a girl there may be some eventual plans about having a family that will come up.

loveofourlord · Jun 3, 2014

Inkachu said:
I agree that, in a casual or business relationship, it wouldn't really need to be brought into the open, unless the individual chose to.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make with your opening paragraph, but a person's gender is determined by their chromosomes long before birth. XY - male. XX - female. Surgeries and hormone therapies will never change that. If a man decides that he "feels" female and has his penis removed, does he become female? No, he becomes a very troubled man.

What about someone again that is born looking female, but is for all intensive purposes male but some lack of hormones at the right time prevented them from developing looking like male?

What about them actually becoming male at puberty? In the first case they may be male in all senses of the word, but they look female.

South Bound · Jun 3, 2014

Cute Tink said:
I know quite a few trans people who have prayed for this to go away and did so for years to no avail. I don't have any reason to believe this would work any differently for me.

Of course it wouldn't. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we pray for our sin to "go away".

However, I spent from around age 6 (little hazy back that far) to age 32 just trying to be happy as a male and hoping that this weird feeling that it wasn't me to go away. I suppressed my desire to dress and behave in a female manner as best I could, though some people have told me that despite that effort they still knew in the end. Finally admitting to myself that this is who I am and finally being myself is the only thing that has brought me any internal peace.

So, would you say that "admitting that this is who I am" should be applied to all harmful behavior?

I am very certain that if there were a way to simply take a pill or get a particular treatment that would have brought my brain into agreement with my body, I would have done it in a heartbeat.

Even if it means acknowledging that your behavior is sinful, requires repentance, submission to Christ, and turning from your sin?

The problem is that they don't have that available as an option and I didn't have the time to sit around and wait for one.

God has been waiting for you far, far longer than you've been waiting for Him.

Armoured · Jun 3, 2014

South Bound said:
Even if it means acknowledging that your behavior is sinful, requires repentance, submission to Christ, and turning from your sin?

What aspect of being transgender, specifically, do you believe is sinful?

loveofourlord · Jun 3, 2014

Rubiks said:
Those cases in Denvet's post are extremely rare and do not represent all cases

If I am a male, I am a male regardless of what I identify as.

No but they show that what one appears to be externally or even chromsonly isn't any indication of reality of their "sex" now if you can have that much biological things with how someone is sex organ wise, how hard is it to believe that someone can be physically male, but mentally female by simular causes such as hormones during development at the wrong time and so on.

Syd the Human · Jun 3, 2014

South Bound said:
Of course it wouldn't. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we pray for our sin to "go away".

So, would you say that "admitting that this is who I am" should be applied to all harmful behavior?

Even if it means acknowledging that your behavior is sinful, requires repentance, submission to Christ, and turning from your sin?

God has been waiting for you far, far longer than you've been waiting for Him.

Could you please list how it is negative towards the individual and society? I haven't seen anyone do that yet.

Cute Tink · Jun 3, 2014

South Bound said:
Of course it wouldn't. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we pray for our sin to "go away".

So what, then, should I be praying to be done about having a mismatch between my brain and body?

So, would you say that "admitting that this is who I am" should be applied to all harmful behavior?

Why is my behavior harmful? Otherwise, I don't see the connection.

Even if it means acknowledging that your behavior is sinful, requires repentance, submission to Christ, and turning from your sin?

I have to multi-answer this one again:
1. I have really only heard that it is a sin because I wear clothing of "the opposite sex". Do you have more?
2. Is the end result still living through crippling depression for the rest of my life?

God has been waiting for you far, far longer than you've been waiting for Him.

I used to believe. I don't anymore. I really don't see how that has much to do with what I said though.

Reeniee · Jun 3, 2014

The amount of ignorance in this thread about transgenderism is troubling, but I guess not too surprising. I know that I was taught close to nothing about it at school or college the first time I went through. I recently returned to college and this time through it was taught, but not in any detail.

I guess in this country at least the education system could do with teaching much more about the issues of minority groups in general and this one in particular.

How did other people find the education system in this regard, and in other countries?

Ignorance isn't something we should hold against people though I think. They might never have been educated on the subject. What is more problematic is people refusing to learn or engage with the subject, willful ignorance, and maybe that is what leads to intolerance?

abacabb3 · Jun 3, 2014

Devnet said:
Well, I suppose one way to sidestep any scientific issues about your position on sex is to refuse to read the science behind sex, although if you read my post, you might be able to see that it isn't about word trickery or mental gymnastics but instead about biology.

ANything that says that men aren't men and women are women, that ignores that they have different chromosomes and hormonal balances, is the epitome of ignorance and I don't feel compelled to address the topic any further than that.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but to me, "poo poo" is a childish euphemism for poop, not for vaginas.

It's a slang for p***y, I do not want to use the term.

If you think that transgenderism is a mental illness, than you ought to allow the transgender person to make their own decisions about their illness with their doctor.

Actually, I am pretty libertarian but I think it should be illegal to mutilate mentally ill people. It is an example of someone taking advantage of mental illness for profit and it is disgusting.

If the transgender person decides, with the consultation of medical professionals, that sexual reassignment is the best medical treatment, then you should be fine with that. But I'm guessing that you aren't.

Personally, I think people like Dr. Mengle should be given the death penalty.

loveofourlord · Jun 3, 2014

Reeniee said:
The amount of ignorance in this thread about transgenderism is troubling, but I guess not too surprising. I know that I was taught close to nothing about it at school or college the first time I went through. I recently returned to college and this time through it was taught, but not in any detail.

I guess in this country at least the education system could do with teaching much more about the issues of minority groups in general and this one in particular.

How did other people find the education system in this regard, and in other countries?

Ignorance isn't something we should hold against people though I think. They might never have been educated on the subject. What is more problematic is people refusing to learn or engage with the subject, willful ignorance, and maybe that is what leads to intolerance?

Well it probably depends on how old you are, alot of this stuff still isn't very common knowledge, and in general, biology and science up till grade twelve or equivalent doesn't really have time to deal with all the nuances, though maybe they should make more time.

It really comes down to the dunning krueger effect.

loveofourlord · Jun 3, 2014

abacabb3 said:
ANything that says that men aren't men and women are women, that ignores that they have different chromosomes and hormonal balances, is the epitome of ignorance and I don't feel compelled to address the topic any further than that.

It's a slang for p***y, I do not want to use the term.

Actually, I am pretty libertarian but I think it should be illegal to mutilate mentally ill people. It is an example of someone taking advantage of mental illness for profit and it is disgusting.

Personally, I think people like Dr. Mengle should be given the death penalty.

You talk about mental illness, but what if they arn't, alot of science is showing that the mental sex and physical sexes arn't always completly related, if someone is mentally female, but physically male it's not a mental illness, their brains are working 100% functionally the way it should, they just have the functionality of the brain that doesn't match the body.

Cute Tink · Jun 3, 2014

Reeniee said:
How did other people find the education system in this regard, and in other countries?

Honestly I had never heard the term "transgender" until I sort of stumbled into it. I had no idea what it meant until I researched it on my own and realized that I actually wasn't alone.

I should also point out that, until recently, TV and movies have done an absolutely terrible job of portraying trans people. The image provided up until the last few years has been largely an evil stereotype which really hasn't done us any favors.

Cute Tink · Jun 3, 2014

abacabb3 said:
ANything that says that men aren't men and women are women, that ignores that they have different chromosomes and hormonal balances, is the epitome of ignorance and I don't feel compelled to address the topic any further than that.

I'm sorry, but you need to do your research. Seriously. I don't think you will though, based on how you've stated things here.

Personally, I think people like Dr. Mengle should be given the death penalty.

What, exactly, do you see as the connection to this statement and the statement it was used as a response to?

Andrea411 · Jun 3, 2014

Autumnleaf said:
I've been told men and women who want to be women and men get operations and take drugs so they look like what they are not born as. Isn't this a lie? Lets say they succeed in not looking like what they were born as and they go meet someone. What then? Do they tell them they can't have children because they have misrepresented themselves or do they live the lie?

It is so easy for those who are born "normal" or unchallenged to judge those that are the exceptions to the rule.
I think it has to come down between them and the Lord, although I can not imagine someone having a relationship with someone and not telling them. That would be deceitful.
I can not imagine that the Lord is distraught over a human being that He allows to live... He can deal with those individuals. I think the church could do a much better job of trying to understand and be compassionate toward the LGBT community.

The only people Jesus ever got angry with, were the religious folks who should have known better. When people come to Christ He has promised to give us incorruptible bodies for these bodies of corruption... I pray that we all look forward to that day.
God bless, andrea

Devnet · Jun 3, 2014

abacabb3 said:
ANything that says that men aren't men and women are women, that ignores that they have different chromosomes and hormonal balances, is the epitome of ignorance and I don't feel compelled to address the topic any further than that.

None of this deals with any of the biology I brought up; it completely ignores the fact that, as I previously said, chromosomes and hormones alone cannot be used to decide manhood or womanhood even by the definition of anti-transgender advocates. I have provided all kinds of examples where even you would accept that XX doesn't mean man and XY doesn't mean woman, but you brush them aside as unimportant. By your definition, XX meaning woman and XY meaning man is an iron clad rule when you want it to be but completely irrelevant when you don't want it to be, and asking you to address this inconsistency is "the epitome of ignorance."

abacabb3 said:
It's a slang for p***y, I do not want to use the term.

I find that "vagina" works well.

abacabb3 said:
Actually, I am pretty libertarian but I think it should be illegal to mutilate mentally ill people. It is an example of someone taking advantage of mental illness for profit and it is disgusting.

So, you oppose medical intervention to alleviate the symptoms of mental illness? For example, I (a person with recurrent major depressive disorder) should go off the medications that (are supposed to) alter my hormones so that I'm (not supposed to be) depressed?

abacabb3 said:
Personally, I think people like Dr. Mengle should be given the death penalty.

I don't know who that is, so I have no comment.

Reeniee · Jun 3, 2014

loveofourlord said:
Well it probably depends on how old you are, alot of this stuff still isn't very common knowledge, and in general, biology and science up till grade twelve or equivalent doesn't really have time to deal with all the nuances, though maybe they should make more time.

It really comes down to the dunning krueger effect.

Sorry I wasn't especially clear, I actually meant education more like is PSE than in biology, about the social side rather than the scientific side. I was taught literally nothing about it in Biology up to the end of GCSE. I was in secondary school between 1995 and 2000, so maybe it has got better now? Lack of education is probably the leading cause of intolerance, so it'd be nice to think that it has gotten better at least.

abacabb3 · Jun 3, 2014

Devnet said:
So I'm going to ask (in vain, I'm sure) that people not make statements like, "It's easy: anyone with two X chromosomes is a woman and anyone with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome is a man." It isn't that easy, it has never been that easy, and it will never be that easy. I cannot express the incredible, transcendent joy I experience when I learn about how biology and genetics actually operate in the world, and to watch this truth be mutilated so that people can insist that moral issues are as simple as pretend-simple biology (as opposed to true-complicated biology) is painful to me.

Being that this is directed to me, I have to disagree. It is as simple as chromosomes, sexual organs, and hormones. Not that any of these things individually are simplisitic, but the concept of gender is and it is irrefutable unless one resorts to sophistry.

Is transgender a lie?

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