Is transgender a lie?

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abacabb3

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It's also been stated that, even from a purely genetic standpoint, there can be ambiguity. I don't feel like I need to reiterate Devnet's wonderful post, so I'll just leave it at that.

Beyond that, psychological gender is a complicated thing that isn't mostly biologically determined. Current social conditions make it impossible to know if psychological gender is biologically influenced to any significant degree. No one has all aspects traditionally assigned to masculinity or femininity. Transgender individuals have significantly more aspects traditionally assigned to the opposite biological sex than to their own. That isn't a mental condition, it's just an extreme example of a failure to comport to social expectations regarding gender that are in themselves (the social expectations, I mean) actually psychologically harmful.

I do not feel compelled to read the post or anything from that scientific viewpoint. A child can see boys have pee pees and girls have poo poos. ANy sort of word trickery and mental gymnastics that ignores the patently obvious is just pure unadulterated ignorance.

Transgenderism is a mental illness, as simple as that. I would also say that guys that act like aggressive jerks to assert their manliness are mentally ill and women that use sex to manipulate people are also mentally ill. There is all sorts of mental illness. I am not trying to judge people who are mentally ill who think they are men when they are women or anything like that. I don't look down on Schizophrenics for example, I know several VERY close to me. However, it is still a mental problem.
 
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abacabb3

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Not all females are born with a uterus, and being male is certainly not defined by the lack of a uterus. But I'm assuming you know this, so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.

You are missing the obvious. People with XY chromosomes have physically and measurably different features than those with XX chromosomes. Futher, those with mutated DNA are exceptions, not the rule, as from a technical standpoint they would be a third gender.
 
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Devnet

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I do not feel compelled to read the post or anything from that scientific viewpoint. A child can see boys have pee pees and girls have poo poos. ANy sort of word trickery and mental gymnastics that ignores the patently obvious is just pure unadulterated ignorance.
Well, I suppose one way to sidestep any scientific issues about your position on sex is to refuse to read the science behind sex, although if you read my post, you might be able to see that it isn't about word trickery or mental gymnastics but instead about biology.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but to me, "poo poo" is a childish euphemism for poop, not for vaginas.

Transgenderism is a mental illness, as simple as that. I would also say that guys that act like aggressive jerks to assert their manliness are mentally ill and women that use sex to manipulate people are also mentally ill. There is all sorts of mental illness. I am not trying to judge people who are mentally ill who think they are men when they are women or anything like that. I don't look down on Schizophrenics for example, I know several VERY close to me. However, it is still a mental problem.
If you think that transgenderism is a mental illness, than you ought to allow the transgender person to make their own decisions about their illness with their doctor. If the transgender person decides, with the consultation of medical professionals, that sexual reassignment is the best medical treatment, then you should be fine with that. But I'm guessing that you aren't.
 
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Devnet

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You are missing the obvious. People with XY chromosomes have physically and measurably different features than those with XX chromosomes.
I wrote a whole post about how this isn't necessarily the case, and you stated your refusal to read it.

Futher, those with mutated DNA are exceptions, not the rule, as from a technical standpoint they would be a third gender.
"Mutated DNA?" The DNA of intersex people is no more or less mutated than the DNA of anyone else.

And no, from a technical standpoint, they are not a third gender: from a technical standpoint, gender is ridiculously complicated and, depending on what "technical standpoint" you're coming from, they might be considered to be male, female, both, neither, or other. I mean, really; do you have any idea how incorrect and objectionable it is to say that a turner syndrome woman (X0) and a Klinefelter syndrome man (XXY) are both universally technically neither male or nor female but some third gender without any kind of consultation with the individual, biologists, or medical personnel? It isn't right to treat intersexed people that way.

You're trying to make all of this operate under a consensus that simply isn't there.
 
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Cute Tink

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Addressed to those that say gender is just a social construct. Gender is a biological construct often with social implications, NOT the other way around.

I don't think those people were literally saying that there is no such thing as "male" or "female".

However, trans people don't transition because of societal roles or social constructs. We transition because of the mismatch between our gender (or mental sex) and our physical sex, and that is how the medical community uses those terms when dealing with trans people.
 
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South Bound

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I feel the love of Christ in this topic.

Statements like this:

SouthBound said:
I agree. If those who indulge transgenders truly had compassion on them, they would tell them the truth, share the Gospel with them, and stop indulging them.

I feel so welcome.

So before recommending "shame" or "sharing the gospel", I recommend you research the history of trans treatment and find yourself some evidence that techniques that very well could drive away trans people might actually work. Techniques like calling us depraved perverts only push trans people out of society and societal rejection just contributes to depression and our already out of control suicide rate.

Actually, I never called you a pervert. I merely said that, when you love someone and see them doing something harmful, you should love them enough to tell them the truth and not indulge them in their harmful behavior.
 
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selfinflikted

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I do not feel compelled to read the post or anything from that scientific viewpoint. A child can see boys have pee pees and girls have poo poos. ANy sort of word trickery and mental gymnastics that ignores the patently obvious is just pure unadulterated ignorance.

Wow. Pee pees and poo poos?

Anyway, you can ignore the science if you want, but you'll remain completely ignorant of reality when you assert garbage such as the above.
 
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Inkachu

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Nailed it.

Not hating anyone. Once again, daring to voice an opinion that doesn't jive with the liberal slant of secular society is now denounced as "hatred". Oh, the ignorance. "Agree with us or you're a ___phobe". :doh:
 
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selfinflikted

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Actually, I never called you a pervert. I merely said that, when you love someone and see them doing something harmful, you should love them enough to tell them the truth and not indulge them in their harmful behavior.

Or, if you are indeed loving, you can catch up on the science of gender and sex so you'll know what you're actually talking about. You know, reality. But, that would require effort and could potentially conflict with your beliefs, so I can't say I blame you at all for your ignorance.
 
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selfinflikted

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Not hating anyone. Once again, daring to voice an opinion that doesn't jive with the liberal slant of secular society is now denounced as "hatred". Oh, the ignorance. "Agree with us or you're a ___phobe". :doh:

I have tried to see it from some other angle, any other angle. But, to me it just boils down to people fearing and hating what they don't understand. Yoda was right about a thing or two about fear and hate.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Where do kids your age get this twisted sense of morality from.
Same place you get yours.

So that is your criteria for people who suffer from serious disorders? As long as it doesn't affect you than who cares?
I need some medical journals to show that transgenderism is a "serious disorder" before I take your word for it.

Well, hey, homeless people in the street don't affect me either.
They should. You should feel a bit of sympathy for their circumstances. I do.
Neither do cancer victims or people killed in wars.
Again, you should feel for these people because they are going through very tough times. I don't see how that is the same as someone choosing to be on the outside how they feel on the inside.

Where do kids your age get this twisted sense of morality from.
I don't see any morality in dictating how people should live their lives. I see no morality in telling people they are wrong and you are right and only you know The Truth™.
 
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stamperben

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"Transgender" is just another sick twisted idea born of a debased perverted society.
Wow, flashback time! This used to be the line of the hardliners in the good ol' USSR back in the 1960's, along with "Homosexuals". Welcome aboard Comrade! :thumbsup:
 
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Cute Tink

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Actually, I never called you a pervert. I merely said that, when you love someone and see them doing something harmful, you should love them enough to tell them the truth and not indulge them in their harmful behavior.

South Bound, that was just a collection of statements from this thread and I didn't feel like using quote boxes for every statement. I didn't mean that you had personally used all of those labels.

What you define as harmful, though, as far as trans treatment goes, this treatment is the one that has been found to work. Not only does it make us more comfortable in our bodies, it also lessens several of the side effects (like depression) that allow us to be more productive members of society.
 
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Reeniee

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For a casual date, in a getting-to-know-you sense there is IMO no obligation. If a trans person goes on such a date and gets a sense on it that the date is hostile to trans people, I don't think there is any necessity to disclose (but perhaps a necessity not to see that person any more). Of course if things seem headed toward a romantic direction, or physical involvement, then I think everyone needs to be open about their situation.



There are certain situations where it I imagine it would probably be necessary, but not generally for casual acquaintance.

Yes I agree I think, it probably needs to be determined more on a 'case by case' basis, rather than having cut and dry 'rules' in place for these interactions. :)
 
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South Bound

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South Bound, that was just a collection of statements from this thread and I didn't feel like using quote boxes for every statement. I didn't mean that you had personally used all of those labels.

But you did imply so by stating that that was the message and then quoting me. I wasn't angry at you. I was just clarifying that I didn't say that.

What you define as harmful, though, as far as trans treatment goes, this treatment is the one that has been found to work. Not only does it make us more comfortable in our bodies, it also lessens several of the side effects (like depression) that allow us to be more productive members of society.

Rather than being comfortable in your body by further indulging your sin, why not repent and receive Christ and be comfortable knowing that you have peace and amity with God, and that Christ has already fought the battle on your behalf?
 
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wanderingone

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So that is your criteria for people who suffer from serious disorders? As long as it doesn't affect you than who cares?

Not quite what was said

Well, hey, homeless people in the street don't affect me either. Neither do cancer victims or people killed in wars. So who cares, right? It doesn't affect me.

Not allowing a person to be who they are and to obtain medical treatment that is available because of your own beliefs, is like not allowing a person who is presently homeless to obtain permanent housing, or depriving people of medical treatments for cancer or other life ending or altering medical conditions because of your own beliefs.
 
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Devnet

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I feel weird saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

To be honest, it was originally my intention to not post in this thread. I'm not very interested in transgenderism, and this lack of interest generally leads me to the conclusion that I don't have much to add to the discussion. I simply do not care if someone identifies as a man or as a woman. If someone who was assigned male at birth indicates that they're a woman, fine. If someone who was assigned female at birth indicates that they're a man, fine. I don't care. They can use whatever restroom they want, wear whatever clothes they want, have their birth certificate changed to say whatever they want, marry whomever they want, and it simply does not matter to me. My response is a very firm shrug.

But what I am profoundly interested in is biology, specifically genetics, and it really bothers me when people try to present genetics (specifically the X and Y chromosome) as simplistic and clear in order to make an argument against transgenderism; this kind of action does great violence to genetics. Genetics is many things (magnificent, fascinating, powerful, glorious, inspiring . . . ) but it isn't simple or clear. Minimizing the amazing complexity of genetics in order to further a political point just isn't something I can get on-board with.

So I'm going to ask (in vain, I'm sure) that people not make statements like, "It's easy: anyone with two X chromosomes is a woman and anyone with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome is a man." It isn't that easy, it has never been that easy, and it will never be that easy. I cannot express the incredible, transcendent joy I experience when I learn about how biology and genetics actually operate in the world, and to watch this truth be mutilated so that people can insist that moral issues are as simple as pretend-simple biology (as opposed to true-complicated biology) is painful to me.
 
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seashale76

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I've been told men and women who want to be women and men get operations and take drugs so they look like what they are not born as. Isn't this a lie? Lets say they succeed in not looking like what they were born as and they go meet someone. What then? Do they tell them they can't have children because they have misrepresented themselves or do they live the lie?

Blind post. It's lying if they get into a relationship with someone without letting them know about said change- and no relationship should ever be built on a lie. An operation and hormone treatments can't change your chromosomes (i.e. you can't change your sex). This is not to say that there aren't people out there who have some very interesting chromosomes though (xxy or xxxy- as an example). However, the concept of gender is certainly more fluid.
 
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Syd the Human

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Actually, I never called you a pervert. I merely said that, when you love someone and see them doing something harmful, you should love them enough to tell them the truth and not indulge them in their harmful behavior.

How is it harmful? Give a list of the reasons that it is harmful since I haven't seen anyone do that.
 
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