Pope Francis tells couples not to substitute dogs and cats for children

Autumnleaf · Jun 2, 2014

I know many educated people who do this. I've always thought it odd.

Pope Francis tells couples not to substitute dogs and cats for children | Religion News Service

"VATICAN CITY (RNS) Pope Francis on Monday (June 2) warned married couples against substituting cats and dogs for children a move that he said leads to the bitterness of loneliness in old age."

Ascendo · Jun 2, 2014

How strange, a man who apparently has taken a vow of celibacy claims people without children are condemned to loneliness in their old age.

Devnet · Jun 2, 2014

Ascendo said:
How strange, a man who apparently has taken a vow of celibacy claims people without children are condemned to loneliness in their old age.

^This. Plus, the Catholic Church is against things like IVF, so that doesn't leave infertile couples in a very fun situation.

Denigration of childlessness frustrate me. I'm childless and it isn't because I sat down and decided that I didn't want kids. I'm childless because I'm single and I don't want to be a single mother. Furthermore, unlike the pope, I'm not single because I sat down and decided that I was going to be single; I simply haven't found someone to get married to. Am I destined to die consumed by loneliness if I don't either A) finally find myself a husband whom I can have babies with B) break with both my own desires and the Catholic church's mandates and go visit a sperm bank?

I want to get married and I want to have children. I don't need people telling me that failing to meet this desire will not only result in a lack of a spouse and children, but also to dying bitter and alone.

Autumnleaf · Jun 2, 2014

Devnet said:
I want to get married and I want to have children. I don't need people telling me that failing to meet this desire will not only result in a lack of a spouse and children, but also to dying bitter and alone.

What if that is the truth? The Pope is wise. Should the truth be silenced because people don't want to hear it?

OldWiseGuy · Jun 3, 2014

Autumnleaf said:
What if that is the truth? The Pope is wise. Should the truth be silenced because people don't want to hear it?

More kids=more Catholics. Makes sense.

Devnet · Jun 3, 2014

Autumnleaf said:
What if that is the truth? The Pope is wise. Should the truth be silenced because people don't want to hear it?

If it's the truth, then I should go out and buy some sperm. And, unless you and/or the Pope think that it's God's will for people to die bitter and alone, the Pope also needs to reconsider the Church's anti-assisted reproduction stance. And the Pope should revisit clerical celibacy; it has not been my experience that bitter, lonely people are very good at dealing with and counseling others. And it would also make the Pope a liar about Christians being happy; only fertile Christians who find spouses would be happy. And we should discourage people from entering any religious institution that encourages celibacy ("Don't become a nun/monk/blah blah, you'll die bitter and alone . . . the Pope said so*"). And . . . ah, well, I should probably stop there.

*I'm assuming the Pope does not in fact hold what the article you linked to seems to indicate that he does, which is that childless people universally die bitterly lonely.

Autumnleaf · Jun 3, 2014

Devnet said:
If it's the truth, then I should go out and buy some sperm. And, unless you and/or the Pope think that it's God's will for people to die bitter and alone, the Pope also needs to reconsider the Church's anti-assisted reproduction stance. And the Pope should revisit clerical celibacy; it has not been my experience that bitter, lonely people are very good at dealing with and counseling others. And it would also make the Pope a liar about Christians being happy; only fertile Christians who find spouses would be happy. And we should discourage people from entering any religious institution that encourages celibacy ("Don't become a nun/monk/blah blah, you'll die bitter and alone . . . the Pope said so*"). And . . . ah, well, I should probably stop there.

*I'm assuming the Pope does not in fact hold what the article you linked to seems to indicate that he does, which is that childless people universally die bitterly lonely.

The Pope was talking about couples. You're not a couple yet. You seem very unhappy about this. Do you agree with the Pope about this based on your experience?

I think many people are unhappy and on birth control and on antidepressants in the US. Coincidence? I lol. Perhaps.

Some people are happy alone. I am sometimes, but other times I am not.

Devnet · Jun 3, 2014

Autumnleaf said:
The Pope was talking about couples. You're not a couple yet. You seem very unhappy about this. Do you agree with the Pope about this based on your experience?

Unhappy with "this?" Unhappy with what? If the pope was talking about couples and thus was not talking about my situation, then I cannot use my experience to agree or disagree with the Pope because my experience is as a single woman.

Autumnleaf said:
I think many people are unhappy and on birth control and on antidepressants in the US. Coincidence? I lol. Perhaps.

I am on antidepressants, almost certainly as a result of being sexually abused by my father as a child, although it certainly isn't impossible that I had some other depressive tendencies. I am not on birth control pills. I am profoundly uncomfortable with you attempting to link the two with no actual evidence to support such a stance.

Autumnleaf said:
Some people are happy alone. I am sometimes, but other times I am not.

If people can be happy without children, then people can be happy without children. I fail to see why someone who is alone would be able to be happy without children but that same person would no longer be able to be happy without children if the person entered into a romantic relationship.

Autumnleaf · Jun 3, 2014

Devnet said:
Unhappy with "this?" Unhappy with what? If the pope was talking about couples and thus was not talking about my situation, then I cannot use my experience to agree or disagree with the Pope because my experience is as a single woman.

I think society is made in such a way as to discourage healthy families.

I am on antidepressants, almost certainly as a result of being sexually abused by my father as a child, although it certainly isn't impossible that I had some other depressive tendencies. I am not on birth control pills. I am profoundly uncomfortable with you attempting to link the two with no actual evidence to support such a stance.

Its an observation I made. Probably unique to the area I live in. I'm sure childlessness has nothing to do with American women on antidepressants. They're probably depressed about something else.

If people can be happy without children, then people can be happy without children. I fail to see why someone who is alone would be able to be happy without children but that same person would no longer be able to be happy without children if the person entered into a romantic relationship.

Marriage is one of those magical things where God's will jives with the union of a man and woman to create life. Oh, some will say that isn't so and they will toss stones, darts and feeble arrows but the awesome reality of marriage lies in the creation that happens with God Man and Woman. Its sublime in its holiness. Many Godly men await Godly women to share this blessing with and vice versa.

Devnet · Jun 3, 2014

Autumnleaf said:
I think society is made in such a way as to discourage healthy families.

I agree that there are many things about our society that make creating a healthy family very difficult.

Autumnleaf said:
Its an observation I made. Probably unique to the area I live in. I'm sure childlessness has nothing to do with American women on antidepressants. They're probably depressed about something else.

I haven't done any in-depth research on causes of depression other than abuse and biological determination, so I can't say.

Autumnleaf said:
Marriage is one of those magical things where God's will jives with the union of a man and woman to create life. Oh, some will say that isn't so and they will toss stones, darts and feeble arrows but the awesome reality of marriage lies in the creation that happens with God Man and Woman. Its sublime in its holiness. Many Godly men await Godly women to share this blessing with and vice versa.

If God's intention for marriage was for Godly men to have babies with Godly women, then God seems to be frustrating Himself when he causes some of these Godly couples to remain barren. Either God can have other plans for married people other than raising children, or He's very contrarian against Himself. I mean, isn't that the argument against assisted reproduction? That it's interfering with God's will?

KitKatMatt · Jun 3, 2014

Nah, I'll stick to my cats. I have no patience for children and they make me extremely nervous, but I love being around animals (even when they're doing the exact same things, haha!)

I'll leave child rearing to those who are more suited to it

Paradoxum · Jun 3, 2014

Isn't it off that the unmarried celibate man is telling couples what to do?

That said, I can imagine that he could be right. He could be incorrect too.

Personally I want to marry, but I don't know if I want children. I want children, and I don't at the same time. It must be very fulfilling, but it also seems like alot of work and stress.

KCfromNC · Jun 3, 2014

Autumnleaf said:
I know many educated people who do this. I've always thought it odd.

Pope Francis tells couples not to substitute dogs and cats for children | Religion News Service

"VATICAN CITY (RNS) Pope Francis on Monday (June 2) warned married couples against substituting cats and dogs for children a move that he said leads to the bitterness of loneliness in old age."

Head of large corporation worried his source of income isn't creating enough new customers to fleece, story at 11.

PopesFollower · Jun 3, 2014

Autumnleaf said:
I know many educated people who do this. I've always thought it odd.

Pope Francis tells couples not to substitute dogs and cats for children | Religion News Service

"VATICAN CITY (RNS) Pope Francis on Monday (June 2) warned married couples against substituting cats and dogs for children a move that he said leads to the bitterness of loneliness in old age."

Some people are really weird with there pets. And also some people are really weird with animals in general, like PETA.

Animals need to be kept in proper perspective. They are good, they are creatures of God, but at the same time they are not people and should not be placed on the same level as people.

Snake75 · Jun 3, 2014

A dog is much better company than any human ever is. Basically, what the pope is doing is trying to get people to have more kids so their would be more Catholics.

PopesFollower · Jun 3, 2014

Snake75 said:
A dog is much better company than any human ever is............

Since you are a human, that says a lot about what you think of yourself.

Skybringr · Jun 3, 2014

Ascendo said:
How strange, a man who apparently has taken a vow of celibacy claims people without children are condemned to loneliness in their old age.

Priests have a different mission. As it happens, priesthood does require ample solidarity in solitude; it's not easy being a priest. They lean entirely on God and the Church to fill the gap, which is what makes them formidable spiritual leaders.

And he makes a good, evident point. Without children, people tend to be lonely when they get older, and without any satisfaction of legacy.

I think what's most concerning is potential regret- when it's too late to have children and a person, who may not have wanted children in the past is left wishing they did.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 3, 2014

Snake75 said:
A dog is much better company than any human ever is.

I know how you must feel. Although I always managed to have a very pretty girlfriend at your age some of my friends didn't and this caused some bitterness. 16 is a much more awkward age for boys than girls, who are generally a little more mature at that age. Don't give up hope though, it does get better. You'll get that final spurt of growth, sprout a beard, and finally become attractive to those wonderful, mysterious creatures (not the snakes, the girls).

OldWiseGuy · Jun 3, 2014

Skybringr said:
Priests have a different mission. As it happens, priesthood does require ample solidarity in solitude; it's not easy being a priest. They lean entirely on God and the Church to fill the gap, which is what makes them formidable spiritual leaders.

And he makes a good, evident point. Without children, people tend to be lonely when they get older, and without any satisfaction of legacy.

I think what's most concerning is potential regret- when it's too late to have children and a person, who may not have wanted children in the past is left wishing they did.

Sniping at the Pope aside he does make a good point. Paul was much the same, forgoing a family for his work as what was then the highest ranking minister of the gospel. He also mentions those who were voluntarily "eunuchs for the work's sake". However he also wanted the leadership to be married and have the family leadership experience as a valuable part of their ministry.

Inkachu · Jun 3, 2014

I understand his point. If you forego children, then when you're old, especially if your spouse passes away, there will be no children, no grandchildren, no great grandchildren, to surround you, care for you, and bring joy to your golden years. Cats and dogs are great, but they don't replace human relationships.

On the flip side, I don't think marriage or children should be some kind of mandate for all humankind. I'd much rather see happy, healthy, functional adults without kids, than a slew of dysfunctional, miserable, abusive families with a dozen kids apiece.

I also don't see what's so "worrying" about the trend of people having fewer children. What are we worried about, exactly? It's a change. Change happens. The world goes on.

Pope Francis tells couples not to substitute dogs and cats for children

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