Let no man deceive you by any means...

sheina said in post 313:

The Church is NOT Israel. That is Replacement Theology and it is as false as a 3-dollar bill.

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Note that even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

That is, the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who've been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Also, immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

sheina said in the signature of post 313:

If today, the Master came
To take His Bride away
Would you be left behind in shame
Or enter that glorious Day?

© 2005 RW Robey

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Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

sheina said in the signature of post 313:

If today, the Master came
To take His Bride away
Would you be left behind in shame
Or enter that glorious Day?

© 2005 RW Robey

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Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Interplanner said:

OT, someday, I hope you're realize that people hate modern Israel for reasons that have nothing to do with "persecution" or "prophecy." You might watch the movie DAY OF THE FALCON about the European need for oil, or look up other secular streams of events that created modern secular Israel.

There are so many other things about the Bible that show its power through history so much better than honking about modern secular Israel.

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See, that's just the point which you probably will not be able to understand. It doesn't matter one iota if Israel is currently the nastiest place of filth on this earth.. because if the scriptures say that THAT NATION shall be DELIVERED in the end then it is going to happen..

Regardless if you believe it, don't believe it, can't stomach it, or whatever..

I have no idea what you think modern Israel is like.. it doesn't even matter.. ALL that matters is what the bible says and there is literally boatloads of prophetic scripture concerning Israel being delivered in the end.

Sorry if you can't stomach that.. it doesn't change the matter at all.

Are you saying that a Christian man, who has salvation, can commit a sin a few seconds before dying in a car crash and is lost because he did not have time to repent for that one sin????

We can never do enough works and repentance to pay for our sin. Works are the fruit of our salvation. We should want to do them. However, they do not pay our sin debt. Christ is the only one who can do that.

Don't know who you're asking (Bible2?).. but then again.. what difference does it make what anyone says.

The just have always lived by faith, not by works lest any man should boast.. and that's basically all the legal crowd has to offer men.. a works based salvation.

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"Don't know who you're asking (Bible2?).. but then again.. what difference does it make what anyone says.

The just have always lived by faith, not by works lest any man should boast.. and that's basically all the legal crowd has to offer men.. a works based salvation. "

It is nice to find something we agree on.

So yes, it does make a difference what you say.

BABerean2 said:

"Don't know who you're asking (Bible2?).. but then again.. what difference does it make what anyone says.

The just have always lived by faith, not by works lest any man should boast.. and that's basically all the legal crowd has to offer men.. a works based salvation. "

It is nice to find something we agree on.

So yes, it does make a difference what you say.

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I don't see how, it's either the Truth from God or lies from us.

BABerean2 said in post 323:

What happened to Grace?

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Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that truly saved people, people who have truly been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite to the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers that are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians think that Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable, and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures believers that there is no way they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.

BABerean2 said in post 323:

Are you saying that a Christian man, who has salvation, can commit a sin a few seconds before dying in a car crash and is lost because he did not have time to repent for that one sin????

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The ability of believers (though not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they're unaware of it, Jesus will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know they've sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And he will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). It's only if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time they're given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21) until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' return (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If saved people become unsure whether or not they've ignored Jesus' warning and refused to repent from a sin, they need to pray and ask him to reveal to them if there's any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists within their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so they can repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

BABerean2 said in post 323:

We can never do enough works and repentance to pay for our sin. Works are the fruit of our salvation. We should want to do them. However, they do not pay our sin debt. Christ is the only one who can do that.

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That's right.

But it's by faith in Jesus' sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and repentance and confession to God (1 John 1:9), and also by walking in the light (i.e. by actually doing the right things) that a believer is made spotless and clean by the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7). For faith is like a body and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That's why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a believer refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) doesn't include the automatic aspect of breathing. For believers must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible don't include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, believers, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2) doesn't mean that believers have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

Works based salvation at its finest here..

Doctrines of men.. you mean like saying that the OT promises to Israel are cursed?

That kind of doctrine?

Old Timer said in post 329:

Works based salvation at its finest here..

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Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Bible2 said:

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

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IMO you're thinking that your old man is saved.. he is not.. he is dead.

CHRIST in YOU is your ONLY hope of GLORY Bible..

It's certainly true that a believer can grieve the Spirit of God or even quench that Spirit by which they are SEALED unto the DAY of redemption. I feel as though I've done these things far to often to even have any hope left in myself.. and that's simply because there is NO HOPE in myself Bible2..

There's ONLY HOPE in CHRIST in me.. my old man is just as vile and dead as the day I was born again by HIS Spirit from above.. that NEW MAN in whom there is NEITHER Jew or Gentile.. and by the GRACE of God ALONE I know that I can type a few letters of encouragement to any here who may experience the same complete helplessness in themselves.. and the complete assurance of the fact that HE which hath begun a GOOD work in you shall perform it, even until the DAY of Jesus Christ..

The very second that any thought enters my mind concerning my ability to walk on water..

Complete hopelessness..

So who's actually doing the walking there?

Peter sank a long time ago imo.. and now Christ is Peter's Way, his Truth, and his Life...

Old Timer said in post 334:

CHRIST in YOU is your ONLY hope of GLORY . . .

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That's right.

For it's impossible to believe or continue to believe all the right things apart from God's miraculous gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2) and some measure of his Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it's impossible to perform or continue to perform all the right actions as believers apart from God making it possible for believers to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it's impossible to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if believers continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus judges the church at his 2nd coming, he will give obedient believers some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify saved people (e.g. Romans 8:30).

Romans 8:29-31 shows that all the elect are glorified at some point during their lifetime, just as they're justified at some point during their lifetime. In Romans 8:30, Paul uses the same verb-tense for "glorified" as for "justified" and "called". I.e. he doesn't say "whom he justified, them he also will glorify", but "whom he justified, them he also glorified", because the glory he's speaking of isn't something in the future, but a present and ongoing reality for those who have been saved (2 Corinthians 3:18, John 17:22; 1 Peter 4:14).

But believers already being glorified doesn't mean that they have been turned into robots, for they can still wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30). Besides the present glorification of believers, there will also be a future glorification of obedient believers at their bodily resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Peter 5:1,4, Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,43, Romans 8:17-25; 2 Corinthians 4:17, Colossians 3:4, Colossians 1:27). But this future glory will be dependent on believers having continued in the faith (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14), having patiently continued in good works and obedience (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9), and having repented from every sin they committed (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

That is, whereas God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), he doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Instead, he leaves them as his real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

Old Timer said in post 334:

It's certainly true that a believer can grieve the Spirit of God or even quench that Spirit by which they are SEALED unto the DAY of redemption.

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Ephesians 4:30, like Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of the Holy Spirit which believers have received now is like a down payment until their future bodily redemption into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption isn't assured for every believer, just as a down payment on a house doesn't always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit doesn't take away believers' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

That is, the day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30, as in Ephesians 1:14, refers to when, at Jesus' 2nd coming, obedient believers' bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into at his 1st coming (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

But Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:14 don't require that every initially saved person will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption, for some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Old Timer said in post 334:

I feel as though I've done these things far to often to even have any hope left in myself..

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Every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he's presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if when he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Old Timer said in post 334:

HE which hath begun a GOOD work in you shall perform it, even until the DAY of Jesus Christ..

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Amen.

Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work that he has begun in saved people. But other passages show that he will do this only if they continue to cooperate with him, work along with him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and don't wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

And of course you skipped over the part that you couldn't hear..

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul warned us not to be deceived by any man.

If your flesh likes the doctrine, it is usually false.

Which doctrine appeals to the flesh?

At the end of the Apostle Paul's ministry, those who had placed him in prison cut his head off. It is happening to our Brothers and Sisters in other nations now. However, many American pastors are telling their congregations that we will be out of here before it can happen to us.

Wake up America!

Some pastors are telling their congregations that the church is going to usher in the kingdom of God, be raptured and then do a u-turn up in the air and come right back down to earth..

Wake up America !

Old Timer said:

Some pastors are telling their congregations that the church is going to usher in the kingdom of God, be raptured and then do a u-turn up in the air and come right back down to earth..

Wake up America !

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No pastor Ive heard has taught that ..glad for that