Original Sin

what does origional sin mean?
-lost

Original sin was the first sin. =D By Adam or Eve, whichever viewpoint you want to take. =D I think its by Adam though. =D

okay, just to drum up some convo...why should I believe in it

Um -- I thought "original sin" referred to the idea that we are born wicked and incapable of perfection. That we are "basically evil."

I don't believe in it. Not in the way that many Christians do, anyhow.

I think we are basically good -- under all the layers of junk that we put on ourselves, and the world puts on us, I believe God sees something good and redeemable in each of us.

But I also think we are capable of making choices that do not serve our species well, and that every subsequent generation suffers for the errors we make. And that over time, we have gotten ourselves (and the state of the world) to the point that quite often we cannot do more than choose between 2 evils. The ability to "do right" escapes us when so often, there doesn't even seem to be a "right choice."

But I think God is willing to help us out and fix us up. I think God redeems us and intends to reunite us with our original purpose.

Original sin seems a paradox to me. If we are only tempted when we are drawn away by our OWN lusts and enticed, how is it that Adam was merely 'tricked'? There must have been a level of pride that grew out of his own freedom, in similarity with that of Lucifer before he fell, and it was indeed this that was the reason for his silence as he watched his own wife choose disobedience. This does not mean that God created man anything less than upright (Eccl. 7:29); it simply means that we cannot understand pride from a perfect standing. God forcing them to fall is simply out of the question. It is one thing to allow the possibility of evil to enter the garden; it is quite another to force the first tempter to sin that man may fall prey to something he had no power to choose otherwise.

"how is it that Adam was merely 'tricked'? "

Because his flesh was not corrupted. Pride did grow out, in that I agree, and thus it caused all people to continue to do so because he sinned.

Well, I mean Adam was perfect right? I mean there are 3 places that sin comes from, the world, our sinful nature and Satan. Back then, the world wasn't much temptation, its pretty good in Eden. Our sinful nature didnt' exist since Adam was still perfect and unbroken. But Satan was there and he was tempted by Satan.

I mean you know that everything is done for God's Glory. And I mean absolutely everything. I believe that Adam falling will maximize the Glory that he will recieve. =D

Just remember, even when we fall, we are still bringing him glory. =D
(Keep Romans 6 in mind though)

Hi,
can 'i' butt in with a quick thought??
Luciffer was said to be created perfect. Adam & Eve were said not to be good, BUT VERY GOOD. Again PERFECT. Then for the Born Again one, how much better could any of these ones be than that of Rom. 8:1 "No Condenmation"? (yes, the bodies will die) Yet, we too are PERFECT in this setting! (see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9)

So: What has been the problem from Luciffer on??? MATURITY of ones CHARACTER. This must be developed as FREE moral created ones. This was not given in the developed stagg. (the forbidden tree in the midst of the garden for one)

Hope that 'i' was not off the thread to 'broad path' ly? Smile! ---Pastor N/B/

Hey Paster NB,

Of course you may! I don't understand your thought though. =D Can you please elaborate and spell it out, I'm slower than most others =D

Your brother and In his grace,

Hi Eze,
being 'slow' is an asset at times! Having FAITH (REAL FAITH) is what CHARACTER is all about!

Do you BELIEVE GOD'S WORD? This BELIEVING HIS WORD IS WHAT REAL FAITH IS! AND [THIS FAITH] DEVELOPED CHARACTER, OK??

Now: His Word says that SIN IS THE TRANGRESSION OF HIS LAW. OK? Then we see the WORD telling us that HIS LAW is His Covenant, Tables of Stone, Ten Commandments & on & on, OK? Most IMPORTANT is what the WORD says about this COVENANT, Heb. 13:20 calles it the [EVERLASTING COVENANT'. And Rev. 14:6 states the Gospel as the EVERLASTING GOSPEL.

Do you BELIEVE IT? If one has REAL FAITH, that because God said it, IT IS A FACT! Both Gospel & His Covenant are ETERNAL.. NO STARTING POINT or CLOSING POINT! OK? Can I continue on???

Well then, sin BEGAN in Heaven. With Luciffer. So the Covenant (the law of God) was eternally there. Adam & Eve SINNED! The Law of God once again CONDEMNED these also! OK? (see Rev. 22:9 & Rev. 11:19)

If one can get past this TRUTH that GOD HAS PLAINLY TOLD US? we might go further. Yet, when the Master comes the second time He askes, Will I find FAITH on the earth?? So lets see what [we will say] to only TWO verses from Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. They are simple enough for even a child with FAITH to understand! (not educated PhD'ers though, huh?)

If one would understand that EVERYTHING in the Master's Word can be tested by these two verses as to what we are hearing, not only today, but in ALL ETERNITY. There are 'fewer' times that God REVEALS that this is not the case, when that is so.

Notice just to examples:
Such as the 'rainbow placed in the heavens' & that 'sin WILL NOT ARISE A SECOND TIME' (Na. 1:2)

Now back to your TESTING OF FAITH?? Remember that as Adam & Eve were tested as perfectly (very good) created ones, they lacked a CHARACTER that needed to be TESTED & PROVED to MATURE! (True FAITH!)God REQUIRES.. "IF YE [*LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS]. (see Acts 5:32) The ERNEST of the Spirit is given, yet there WILL BE A CLOSING TIME OF MATURITY! One way or the other. (see Gen. 6:3)

Do you BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD?? (by the way, 'i' highlight everything)

Eccl. 1:9-10 says:
"The thing that been, it is that which SHALL BE; and THAT WHICH IS DONE IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE DONE; AND [THERE SHALL BE *NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN.]

Before we go on, NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN, GOD HAS SAID! He CANNOT LIE! HE DOESN'T CHANGE & IS [ETERNALLY THE SAME GOD]. What is FAITH AGAIN?? DO YOU [REALLY BELIEVE GOD??] OK: He continues on..

IS THERE [ANYTHING WHEREOF IT MAY BE SAID, SEE THIS NEW? IT HATH BEEN ALREADY OF OLD TIME, [WHICH WAS BEFORE US]."

I am Glade that Christ's Word did not pause very long, befor answering HIMSELF! READ HIS ANSWER AGAIN!!
OK, we are getting there, or we are NOT GETTING THERE, FAITH WISE?!

But this brings up ALL kinds of Questions to our ANSWERS! Who was before Adam & Eve? And GOD SAID, " IT HATH BEEN OF OLD TIME THAT WAS BEFORE US". No question here intended, but a FAITH beliving FACT! OK??

Heb. tells us of other worlds in the plural. (and twice stated) Adam & wife were TESTED with a beautiful tree in the midst of the garden of eden. GOD HAS PLAINLY TOLD US THAT ALL OF HIS OTHER WORLDS WERE [TESTED]! He said: "IT HATH BEEN OF *OLD TIME THAT WAS *BEFORE *US"

Do we BELIEVE GOD! Are we afraid that our FAITH cannot TRUST HIM?? Do not WORRY ABOUT WHAT GOD HAS SAID, it is [OUR] FAITH THAT NEEDS DEVELOPING. HE CANNOT LIE!!! OK??

Adam & wife had a [FIRST] SON named Cain that sinned against the Holy Ghost by free choice, (see Gen. 4:7) so WHO WAS CHRIST'S [FIRST CREATION] in other Worlds? Again HE SAID, "It hath been of OLD TIME THAT WAS BEFORE US''. TRUE MATURE FAITH BELIEVES & LIVES BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD! (see Matt. 4:4 for the Master's own Words!) Before we continue on with Eccl. chapter three, ask yourself what all of these ones were lacking when God created them?? It was a MATURE FAITH, OR CHARACTER that needed developing. Do we REALLY BELIEVE GOD AND HIS WORD TO US, IS THE TEST! And EVEN this FAITH ALONE in worthless with out the ETERNAL COVENTANT CONDITIONS of Acts 5:32! (the devil knew all of this!)

OK: Eccl. 3:15. Lets see if God is CONSISTANT? (smile)
"THAT WHICH HATH BEEN IS *NOW; AND THAT WHICH IS TO BE *HATH ALREADY BEEN], AND GOD [REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST]".

The Mark of the Beast testing for 'professed' Christians, to see if they [REALLY HAVE FAITH]? God said so! Where can it be found in past history? Exodus 16. Verses 4 & then verse 22-27, and then verse 28 for the REFUSAL of obedience! Did they have FAITH? Tested on one 7th day Sabbath Commandment to see if they BROKE THEM ALL OR NOT! (see James 2:8-12) Notice verse 35 of Exodus 16? This was at the 'BORDERS OF THE LAND CANNON', is this not where we are at the present time??

Everything can be TESTED by the WORD OF GOD! A SECRET RAPTURE? The 1000 yr. thing? Are the DEAD REALLY DEAD? The SECOND COMMING of CHRIST? Sunday worship over the 7th day Sabbath *COMMANDMENT? and on & on!

Hope that this helps explain FAITH. Print it out, & just keep it for later use in your maturity. ---P/N/B/



Do you BELIEVE GOD'S WORD??

Wow, that really was a mouthful and it has been helpful, once I go through and am able to cf the verses and etc etc etc, I am sure that it will be more helpful.

I do believe in God's Word. I do stick by 2nd Timothy 3:16. =D Great verse!

Just reading your post over, it seems to be a good document, but I do have one small qualm with it. =D You ask who was Christ's first creation. I don't quite understand that quesiton. From my understanding, Christ was the method of all creation. =D I don't see the point in asking what was Christ's first creation, that would be the world, right? Hebrews 1:2 =D

I will get back to you on the faith and maturity thing. I need some more time to study it =D Meanwhile, keep explaining your post, i still don't understand what your asking completely =D

My friend Eze.,
OK: I put that there for ones FAITH to be tested! God said in Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 that history is repeated. (bottom line)

And [two] of the GodHead are on record as saying, "[Let us] make man in [our image]". And later on it is stated, "[Let US] go down and confound their language,.." And after the eating of the forbidden tree? God said, "Man has become as one of [US].."

But it is not the Godhead that is the thought here, BUT THAT OF THE TWO WITH AN IMAGE. More proof is seen in Moses on Mt. Sinai. He could not look on God and live. God said that He would put His HAND over His FACE & Moses could look on His HIND PARTS. OK?

So Adam & Eve were created in the 'image' of their maker. (not just physically, but this is the consideration for now)

So now we see that they even were 'creative' (not from scratch, though, huh?)
Any way, God made them so they could pro/create. (have children like their self)
SO, when God says that there was rebellion in heaven, that Luciffer fell as lightening from heaven, He also told us that he, Luciffer was the first sinner. OK? (see Isa. 14:12-14, Rev. 12 & EEze. 28)

Also remember that man was 'created a little lower than the angels' OK?
Now for HISTORY TO BE REPEATED, [IF] one really has FAITH in the Lords Word, Adam & Eves FIRST SON REBELLED. So what DID GOD SAY AGAIN?
About the thing.. 'that has been is now; and that which is to be, HATH ALREADY BEEN; and GOD REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST]'

Or do we not have a 'BRAIN' in our past image of God to think with? If the Creators earthlings son was first in [ REJECTED rebellion], who was the GodHeads first created in rebellion? (again see Gen. 4:6)

If one is familiar with Matt. 24's prophecy? How can one understand a dual prophecy if they CANNOT REASON?? THINK??

Case in point: Matt 24:14 tells us that when the Gospel goes into all the world for a [witness], " then shall the END COME". Do [you] believe it???
Did the first church believe this? Did Paul believe this? SURELY!
YET, THEY ALSO BELIEVED THE ECCL. VERSES! How do we know this?? (by real FAITH in BELIEVING CHRIST'S WORDS!) OK?? NO?? Well then, here is proof!

But first, when I quote Scripture here, ask yourself what the FAITH of each one reading these WORDS OF THE MASTER would be, [IF] they did not UNDERSTAND A GOD OF REPEATED HISTORY?? In other words, what would this verse do with the MASTER'S CREDIBILITY??

Here is the verse: Rom. 10:18,
"But I say, Have they NOT HEARD? [YES VERILY], THEIR SOUND [WENT INTO ALL THE EARTH], AND THEIR WORDS UNTO [THE ENDS OF THE WORLD]".

Did JESUS COME? Hardly. The Bible is FULL of history repeats. This is just one of the many of them. But how would anyone feel that was trusting in Christ (real Faith/wise) when Christ had not come as He said that He would, if you knew 'not' this Eccl. TRUTH? Did Paul not remember the Matt. 24:14 TRUTH SPOKEN BY CHRIST HIMSELF?? Surely, and he also knew that the Word of God includes [ALL THE WORDS OF HIS MASTER!]

So: 2 Tim. 3:16 is of VITAL IMPORTANCE, as well as that of Matt. 4:4!
-----P/N/B/

*****

Today at 02:03 PM Eze 36 26 28 said this in Post #12

(zapped for question)

I do believe in God's Word. I do stick by 2nd Timothy 3:16. =D Great verse!

Just reading your post over, it seems to be a good document, but I do have one small qualm with it. =D You ask who was Christ's first creation. I don't quite understand that quesiton.

Click to expand...

Ok, that definately cleared a lot of things up. I need things finely chewed for me. =D

I think that Hebrews 11:1 is definately a great verse to quote here. I trust that you have read the verse and will not write it here. =D I mean I have faith of things which haven't come. I definately don't think that the rapture has already happened. First of all, where is the anti-christ? I don't believe that any figure today is the anti-christ. As 1 John 2:19 says, he will come from us. I don't seen evidence of that yet. Also, I haven't seen the skys open up nor am I in fellowship with christ. =D

As about what you said about God, not being able to show Moses his face, I believe that Moses has the sinful nature. Having the sinful nature, God was unable to show Moses his face, in his full glorified form. The sin of Moses was only covered, not cleared. =D

Did I answer your questions? =D If I somehow completely missed the mark, please tell me, I do that a lot.

I have a question for you though. =D Did Christ live by saving faith? =D Note I make the distinction, saving faith. =D

Yes, our theology does seem to be fairly close. =D Praise the Lord!

About my question about Christ having saving faith, it is my understanding that Christ was born righteous so therefore he had no use for saving faith. As it says in Hebrews 12, he is the author and mediator of our faith, but I don't believe that he himself needed saving faith. I'm not saying that Christ didn't live by faith, just not saving faith. He had faith in the scriptures and etc etc etc. Christ was born righteous, as in if we ignored all the prophecies(=D), and just killed baby Jesus at the moment that he was born, that sacrifice would still be enough to cleanse our sins. Also, I don't believe that Adam before the fall had saving faith because once again, he had no need for it. Adam saw God. In Romans 8:24, it says that hope in what that is seen is not hope. =D After Adam fell, he then had to have faith in the promises of God, which in turn lead to saving faith. =D

=D I hope all is well brother!

Your brother in Him.

Good discussion, guys! May I insert a few, brief thots?
Satan and his angels were obviously the first to fall or no one would have been present to tempt the original couple. I never could see that Is14:12ff described the revolt of Satan, since the immediate context describes the king of Babylon(14:4), but that is not crucial. Apparently, some angels fell and were imprisoned (Jude 6), while others fell (on another occasion?) and were left to harrass us.
Adam and Eve's fall is incredible: ideal environment, no inner urges to master and an intimate walk with God. The fly in the ointment: human freedom. God took a risk in making creatures to love Him and serve Him without being programmed to do such: what kind of love can be compelled, anyway? The risk was always the same that God faced in making angels and the Devil: the Almighty fashioned beings who could exercise genuine(tho not unlimited) freedom and would be held accountable for their choices. We are not in any way held responsible for Adam's disobedience: all of the passages that speak of the Judgment to Come show that we are judged for OUR works, eg., Rev.20:12ff,"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened...The dead were judged ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE...The sea gave up the dead...and death and Hades...and each person was judged according to what they had done." God bless, al

Adam and Eve were not created absoutely perfect. This is just one of many errors Augustine had concerning creation and it only made deviate even more from the ancient faith. Adam and Eve were created very good by God and upright, Ecclesiastes 7:29, but this in no way means absolute perfection. The saints will be perfect once they are resurrected and see Jesus in all His glory, and when that happens there will be no opportunity for us to fall like Adam and Eve did.

Adam and Eve were created upright and holy, but they also had to mature and grow and conform more to God's likeness by obeying His command. They were to be tested, and God hints at this in Genesis 2 when he tells Adam to till and keep the garden. The Hebrew word for keep is shamar, which means guard or protect. God wanted Adam to protect the garden, but to protect it means that there was something that wanted to harm the state of affairs in Eden. The person who wanted to corrupt Paradise was the Serpent or Satan, who was able to do so because Adam and Eve were immature and young.

The Eastern Church has maintained the tradition of the first Christians by seeing Adam and Eve as unknowing and inexperience children because they had not lived a full life to gain experience. Even though they were adults, they did not live a full life but were created as adults by God so they were like children who could be deceived. The Serpent deceived them, and so they fell from their position of holiness and goodness.

I don't think of Original in the post Schism sense. I look at it in the Early fathers sense. That when sin entered into the world. The desire to sin entered into us. however I don't believe that we are born with sin mearly born prone to sin. For if we were born with sin already in us how was Christ born sinless. Remember He was fully man and fully God meaning he had every one of our attributes. that would include being born with sin if it were true.

Also, before anyone replys with the answer "He didn't have an earthly Father, and the Sin is passed down through the Father". I have heard this but I find it hard to believe since Eve was the first to sin, not Adam. I don't see why God would carry the sin through the one who sinned second. Plus it's neither Scripturally based or in any of the Early Church writings.

We find lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of Life. Serpant told them they would be like God, the fruit looked good, and was good for food

Gen. 3.5 and 6
1 John 2.16