If you quote the Bible, I'll examine it on its own merits
That's all I ask for. Here's the most direct way I know of addressing the concept of what happens in the process of worship:
"As all of us reflect the Lord’s glory with faces that are not covered with veils, we are being changed into his image with ever-increasing glory. This comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
This is a translation touted by modern scholars as being one of 2 that are superlative, but I find this translation of 2 Corinthians 3:18 (God's Word) quite clunky. The KJV here is a bit vague on its own, so lets see it in a version so many love to hate, the MSG: (The Message)
"Whenever, though, they turn to face God as Moses did, God removes the veil and there they are—face-to-face! They suddenly recognize that God is a living, personal presence, not a piece of chiseled stone. And when God is personally present, a living Spirit, that old, constricting legislation is recognized as obsolete. We’re free of it! All of us! Nothing between us and God, our faces shining with the brightness of his face. And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him."
Me likey! And on to the KJV:
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
Much more succinct. Your thoughts?
So 'worshipping' a 'false god' can, in some cases, be a good thing?
I would say no. That in the instance of doing the exact same thing as another may be found guilty by God of actually worshiping a false god, if it is a good thing its because as God sees it, he/she isn't really worshiping a false god, they're just doing a good thing. (In your example, pursuing science, presumably in some way that will benefit mankind)
So the emphasis here is on the fact we are in no position to condemn one another. In fact when God points out an idol in my life, He doesn't do it to condemn me but to set me free. So if He entrusts me with some similar info about someone else, I am responsible to not go condemning them over it.
Well, Jesus himself was quite heavy on the judgement and condemnation.
I know exactly why you say this but let me ask: did you see any single example of Him actually condemning anyone? Weren't these all hypothetical examples, designed to open our eyes so we don't get taken by surprise?
Those are actual questions and I do look forward to your answers, but something I state as a point is that is an example we are not to follow. He is the Judge, we are not. We become more like Him via worship, but never to the point of actually being God, and Just in our (condemning) Judgment of another. The closest we get to that in this life is to condemn our OWN sin - which means to stop doing it. That activity should keep us far too busy than to be able to "play god" at someone else.
I don't think they'd pay much attention to such a niche psychological thing as 'uppermost priorities' - IMO, they were concerned with actual worship of actual false deities.
You're referring to OT culture and perhaps even the OT writers, and I certainly agree with you here. I'm just pointing out the Living God I know deals with me personally on this level of uppermost priorities we may be blind to, and he also does this in the community of believers I participate in now. The main difference is we are now subtle, whereas back then it was bold and out in the open. What those false gods represented was plain as day, while now we are more prone to being fooled.
The problem is, we're pattern-recognising monkeys searching for a pattern in an enormous array of information.
I'll let the ideological difference slide in the effort to see your point
The key here is for the believer to NOT be searching for said pattern, as you put it. Viewing life as a Rorschach test is fraught with error. It also obstructs the voice of God. (However He may be inclined to reveal His will to us)
So if God's plan can only be divined by lengthy study of countless variables and systems, then God's plan is unknowable - it gets lost in the avalanche of possible planes that leap out of the system.
(I don't think I have a point, I just like chaos theory)
I rather like this, so I'm inclined to think that if I learned it, I might like that too. Here, I agree with you that if we take it upon ourselves to somehow "figure it all out," we are DOOMED. Further, I think we'd find ourselves a nervous wreck. A non-Christian but non-atheist friend observes that knowing everything must be a painful existence, to which I respond that the Cross states this, in quite a literal way we might be able to relate to.
As far as ever knowing God's will in any specific circumstance, Peace rules in that dep't. (Literally it is to act as an umpire in our heart, which requires our permission)
Well, I'd say it's a little more than simply putting it into context. But yes, if the story never actually happened, then God didn't do anything wrong. But tell that to the literalists!
The thought of that task makes
me cringe
Anyway, I am not somehow attempting to task you with engaging these old stories on this level, but I do notice you have explored some of the OT. Levitical law is very relevatory once you escape the literal statements, but its still quite dry. The main Exodus story with the 10 plagues appeals to the teenage boy that likes to eat worms, so it might be a good starting point of asking "what's the real point here?" Which is that we all have a Pharoah within us, we all have the same choice of hardening our heart against God, and we can all be Judged if we do. That party the Hebrews had when the Egyptian army washed up on the shore dead? That is quite something in the Christian experience! And the same idea is repeated when David kills Goliath. It sux to have to fight the same battles whether they be addictions or just habits, but when when we rise above them and they can no longer fight back?
Life gets better.
This is the allegorical level of all the OT: what does this story tell me about me? Or a simple re-phrase: what does this tell me about Christ? The latter of course being the more important question. Within the Christian experience these lines kinda blur, and we come up with: what does this story tell me about Christ in me? And that can in fact be a wonderful worship experience, and brings me full circle to the passage this post starts with.
Maybe. Is it possible to come to God without personal revelation? Some Christians believe only those whom God has specifically called can become Christian.
I need to be very careful with handling this question. Jesus warns me not to break a bruised reed, nor to quench a smoking flax. I think your statement here that I responded to may be personal revelation from God to you:
"It certainly raises a thorny issue - if person X believes because of personal revelation, and person Y doesn't believe because they lack personal revelation, then person Y's non-belief is entirely God's fault for not indwelling them with said revelation. So how can it be right that they should burn in Hell for eternity?"
You may not be interested in developing that into "bedrock," or even seeing how it could become such. I know I need personal revelation, and I see 2 passages that suggest to me its the only way it happens, but that does NOT become binding upon you! At any rate I firmly believe God calls EVERYONE. The Gospel simply does not compute any other way. He may not do all this all the time; i.e., some people may not be called yet. I can allow for the Universe to be big enough for that to be a possibility.
This thread is asking how one goes from "God exists" to "Let's go sing hymns, build temples, and otherwise worship him". Sure there may be some disingenuous people, but some of the hymn-singers and temple-builders are genuine?
I'd like to think that each denom, and even each local Church, has genuine folks in it. Going from "God exists," to let's build temples, has an interesting intermediate step in Genesis. You've read the book already, but if you look at the building of altars mentioned in Gen as the individuals in question wanting to cement their personal revelation of God that day not only for their own future, but for the society they lived in, you have the beginnings of "building Temples." And it becomes easier to see the false idol business I've been alluding to ...
... Are you a priest?!
No, but I do serve in the capacity of musician, as a worship leader. This is recognized as the front lines of battle, per God's design. So I do get substantial input to the rest of leadership.
