A view on where aborted infants go from Elder Cleopa

Dorothea · May 29, 2014

Let's remember that Fr. Cleopa (was a SF to so many) was and is a loved father to hundreds of Romanians, and thus was a dear father to them, and we shouldn't be talking down about him as if we're somehow better than he is. Let's not insult him or the Romanian brethren here.

ma2000 · May 29, 2014

You know, I have another saying of Elder Cleopa and Elder Arsenie Papacioc for you..
Do you know when will be the end of the world? When we will no longer be able to find a path from one another. No love left..

Forgive me..

Dorothea · May 29, 2014

ma2000 said:
You know, I have another saying of Elder Cleopa and Elder Arsenie Papacioc for you..
Do you know when will be the end of the world? When we will no longer be able to find a path from one another. No love left..

Forgive me..

I love you, ma!!

~Anastasia~ · May 29, 2014

ma2000 said:
You know, I have another saying of Elder Cleopa and Elder Arsenie Papacioc for you..
Do you know when will be the end of the world? When we will no longer be able to find a path from one another. No love left..

Forgive me..

If it comes to that, it seems it would be time to end the world. God knows ...

Forgive me if anything I've said in this thread sounded disrespectful.

ArmyMatt · May 29, 2014

Elder Cleopa only had a 14 hour prayer rule, an almost eidetic memory when it came to the Fathers and the Scripture, loved the communists who persecuted him and ran him into the wilderness, the humility to refuse becoming a bishop multiple times, the relationship with the animals like St Seraphim of Sarov, but what does he know?

truthseeker32 · May 29, 2014

delete

ArmyMatt · May 29, 2014

truthseeker32 said:
delete

great to see you again truth!

FireDragon76 · May 29, 2014

Dorothea said:
... I've known plenty of them, and they are all quite pious and loving people, who are less judgmental than I or you or those stuck in ethnic/nationalistic clubs.

I guess I just don't see that kind of sentimentality as wise in appraising whether I should believe something or not, especially when it seems to contradict so many other opinions.

Columba7 · May 29, 2014

ArmyMatt said:
Elder Cleopa only had a 14 hour prayer rule, an almost eidetic memory when it came to the Fathers and the Scripture, loved the communists who persecuted him and ran him into the wilderness, the humility to refuse becoming a bishop multiple times, the relationship with the animals like St Seraphim of Sarov, but what does he know?

I'd say he knows how to keep an impressive prayer rule

jckstraw72 · May 29, 2014

our parishes really need to amp up the catechism. most of us have no clue what it means to be a Saint.

Cappadocious · May 29, 2014

ma2000 said:
What does being an 'old Romanian fellow' got to do with anything? Not to mention you're disrespectful to an elder person, a spiritual father, a fellow Christian, a person who might be soon canonised?

You might be right about this and Elder Cleopa might be wrong, but this still doesn't mean it's an appropriate comment from you.

You presuppose that "old" is a negative. We Orthodox do not.

Columba7 · May 29, 2014

jckstraw72 said:
our parishes really need to amp up the catechism. most of us have no clue what it means to be a Saint.

I'm editing again. Forgive me jkstraw. What do you think catechism should look like beyond learning about the creeds, sacraments, learning to love God our neighbor, and learning to pray?

I should calm myself and listen. I suppose it may be difficult for me to see things your way since I was made to love Orthodoxy through the writings of people like Met. Kallistos Ware, Met. Hilarion Alfeyev, Fr. Stephen Freeman, Fr. Louth, Fr. Hallam, and HAH Bartholemew, all authors that seem to be criticized by more conservative (for lack of a better word) Orthodox Christians.

jckstraw72 · May 29, 2014

yeah, that's what i said!

i have no personal experience of holiness, but i did learn Patristics from a long-time disciple of Elder Sophrony. when he opened his mouth he revealed to us what he saw in a Saint. it was quite moving.

....

aah, Columba you are a quick editor. i saw your diss on the Synaxarion, by the way

Cappadocious · May 29, 2014

Columba7 said:
The problem is that "good catechism" to you is American fundamentalism seeping into Orthodoxy for others. I've witnessed this locally. Greek and Antiochian clergy tend to be wary of the way in which the slavic churches interpret tradition.

On the West Coast, it is often the Antiochian churches which interpret tradition in the "slavic" way you are referring to (which I think is unfair to pin on the Slavs). Luckily, my parish is not one of that sort.

Columba7 · May 30, 2014

Cappadocious said:
On the West Coast, it is often the Antiochian churches which interpret tradition in the "slavic" way you are referring to (which I think is unfair to pin on the Slavs). Luckily, my parish is not one of that sort.

I retracted my hasty statements. Thank you, all, for making my sins more apparent to me. I don't know how things are in the states, but here in Canada and from what I have seen in the UK things seem a bit different.

jckstraw72 · May 30, 2014

forgive me, Columba.

Columba7 · May 30, 2014

Well I did a lot of digging and it has really crippled my Orthodox faith for a few reasons.

It seems Jckstraw is right. Everything I could find in the Church Fathers seems to suggest that infants are not punished with hell or rewarded with heaven based on the idea that they have no personal sin but also no personal merit/ virtue. This was more legalistic than I was expecting.

St. Gregory Nanzianzus:

“It will happen, I believe ... that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. ... For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished.” [Orat., xl, 23]

St. Gregory the Great:

“For there be some that are withdrawn from the present light, before they attain to shew forth the good or evil deserts of an active life. And whereas the Sacraments of salvation do not free them from the sin of their birth, at the same time that here they never did aright by their own act; there they are brought to torment... For they even receive everlasting torments, who never sinned by their own will. And hence it is written, Even the infant of a single day is not pure in His sight upon earth."

Canon of the Council of Carthage:

“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my house there are many mansions”: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where happy infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For when the Lord says: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God” [John 3:5], what Catholic will doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a coheir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left [cf. Matt. 25:41,46].

As a result of my findings I don't know that I can remain Orthodox, as I cannot make sense of God barring infants from heaven.The fathers say infants do not merit heaven because they had no personal merit, but what bothers me is they never had the opportunity to achieve such merit. The blame for this seems to fall on God since it was in his power to give the infants the opportunity to achieve heaven, but he took it away from them.

What is also concerning is that modern Orthodox jurisdictions like the Antiochian in America and the OCA are promulgating the view that unbaptized infants go to heaven, which goes against the tradition of the Church.

~Anastasia~ · May 30, 2014

Columba7 said:
Well I did a lot of digging and it has really crippled my Orthodox faith for a few reasons.

It seems Jckstraw is right. Everything I could find in the Church Fathers seems to suggest that infants are not punished with hell or rewarded with heaven based on the idea that they have no personal sin but also no personal merit/ virtue. This was more legalistic than I was expecting.

St. Gregory Nanzianzus:

St. Gregory the Great:

Canon of the Council of Carthage:

As a result of my findings I don't know that I can remain Orthodox, as I cannot make sense of God barring infants from heaven.The fathers say infants do not merit heaven because they had no personal merit, but what bothers me is they never had the opportunity to achieve such merit. The blame for this seems to fall on God since it was in his power to give the infants the opportunity to achieve heaven, but he took it away from them.

What is also concerning is that modern Orthodox jurisdictions like the Antiochian in America and the OCA are promulgating the view that unbaptized infants go to heaven, which goes against the tradition of the Church.

I would say wait. Take a deep breath. Ask someone who knows.

None of the ECF are infallible. That is what the Holy Spirit is for. You can find teachings that disagree with the Church among the ECF. Those particular teachings, when necessary, are rejected, while what is true is kept.

You can find differences of opinions on many things. Which I suppose is why they gathered godly and learned men together to seek God, pray, speak among themselves, and decide what to accept.

Don't let a few disagreeing statements sway your faith. The Church already knew about them.

Keep asking though until you are satisfied. I've been there several times already, and always at the end, I have found wise answers.

Cappadocious · May 30, 2014

Columba7 said:
Well I did a lot of digging and it has really crippled my Orthodox faith for a few reasons.

It seems Jckstraw is right. Everything I could find in the Church Fathers seems to suggest that infants are not punished with hell or rewarded with heaven based on the idea that they have no personal sin but also no personal merit/ virtue. This was more legalistic than I was expecting.

St. Gregory Nanzianzus:

St. Gregory the Great:

Canon of the Council of Carthage:

As a result of my findings I don't know that I can remain Orthodox, as I cannot make sense of God barring infants from heaven.The fathers say infants do not merit heaven because they had no personal merit, but what bothers me is they never had the opportunity to achieve such merit. The blame for this seems to fall on God since it was in his power to give the infants the opportunity to achieve heaven, but he took it away from them.

Local councils and Patristic writings don't work that way in the Orthodox Church.

The Council of Trullo affirms local councils with contradictory Scriptural canon lists, after all.

Theologoumena are not dogma.

Besides, if you think about it, what they are saying is not so objectionable. The notion that their souls are advanced by the repentance of the mothers who aborted them... that is an entirely different story, and I disagree with that.

Dorothea · May 30, 2014

This isn't dogma in the Church, is it? I mean the belief that babies are in some intermediate spot til His Second Coming? Thanks for those quotes, Columba.

A view on where aborted infants go from Elder Cleopa

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