Just wonderin'.....

brinny · May 22, 2014

Kylissa said:
I really don't know ... I haven't been taught much of anything on it anywhere. It's pretty much all there in the Bible if you put 2+2 together, and it's really not any great insight.

The only thing that was ever brought to my attention was the meaning of the words where the earth "became" void, which was the basis for thinking on the possible destruction by Satan, and the re-creation idea, which I had heard some of that.

But looking at how Satan will be made a mockery of in the end (and I forget where that is in Scripture but I know I've seen it), and how we can put legions of demons to flight (though surely they are actually stronger than humans) ... it's pretty basic in the idea of it, I think?

That's the best I've got.

where is it written that the earth "became" void?

brinny · May 22, 2014

Kylissa said:
Oh, I know.

I really love the layers of meaning that come from meditating on Scripture. I don't think I would say that is the "interpretation" of the passages, but yet you can discover these wonderful principles, and they are repeated throughout Scripture as well (in case you miss them in this place or that?).

But yes, I just love seeing the way it all works together and forms the "big picture".

That helps me a lot because I tended to separate God in the Old Testament from Jesus in the New Testament when I was a kid, and it made God very difficult to understand (and not a little scary!).

There is much peace and majesty as well in the overall picture (and still awe!).

I was just teasing you a bit, talking about understanding God's purposes. Certainly He gives us some things to understand, and just as certainly other things are too high above us.

what is intriguing about it all is that in Proverbs, and all though out this book, it is written that wisdom cries out and that anyone who seeks her will be blessed and granted wisdom....that if we seek her like priceless treasure, she will surely be found.....

it is also written (i can't remember which verse it is) that God will reveal things to us that were not known previously (or even noticed by us) as we seek Him in His Word....

it's almost like reading His Word is like it's "manna". spiritual bread that feeds our spirit....

and as we go along, new things unfold after the other, and there are those "Aha" moments and more and more of it fits and starts to make sense....

what i begin realizing is how one-dimensional and narrow my understanding has been, as opposed to God's thinking and wisdom, which is as He says waaaaaay above my own LOL!

~Anastasia~ · May 22, 2014

brinny said:
where is it written that the earth "became" void?

Ugh - Hebrew .... I am NOT GOOD with this, LOL.

If you search online for that phrase "earth became void" you will turn up discussions on it.

The ASV and a few other translations allude to it:
American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I believe it is in the word "waste" which implies something having been destroyed or made desolate?

Young's Literal Translation is also good to check in questionable matters, as I find it very good and accurate, but it's hard to understand.

Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Again, only an implication, I know ...

The Hebrew is תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ וְחֹ֖שֶׁךְ

From Wikipedia:

Tohu wa bohu (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הו&#1468

is a Biblical Hebrew term found in the Book of Genesis 1:2. Numerous interpretations of this phrase were made by various theological sources, though it is usually translated as "waste and void," "formless and empty," or "chaos and desolation." It describes the condition of the earth before God said, "Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). Precise translation of the phrase is difficult, as only the first word, "tohu," appears to have any independent meaning.

There is evidence that the sentence And the earth was without form and void (tohu vbohu) indicates destruction, not simply primitive creation. This phrase is rendered more strongly elsewhere (i.e., in other ancient versions). For example, the Chaldee Version has But the earth had become desert and empty, the Septuagint has But the earth had become unfurnished and empty, and the Aramaic has And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited.

Again, this is not something I've looked into deeply, which is why I indicated it was speculation when I mentioned it. But there would seem to be some evidence. It's rather interesting, is all I can say.

brinny · May 22, 2014

Kylissa said:
Ugh - Hebrew .... I am NOT GOOD with this, LOL.

If you search online for that phrase "earth became void" you will turn up discussions on it.

The ASV and a few other translations allude to it:
American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I believe it is in the word "waste" which implies something having been destroyed or made desolate?

Young's Literal Translation is also good to check in questionable matters, as I find it very good and accurate, but it's hard to understand.

Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Again, only an implication, I know ...

The Hebrew is תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ וְחֹ֖שֶׁךְ

From Wikipedia:

Tohu wa bohu (תֹ֙הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הו&#1468 is a Biblical Hebrew term found in the Book of Genesis 1:2. Numerous interpretations of this phrase were made by various theological sources, though it is usually translated as "waste and void," "formless and empty," or "chaos and desolation." It describes the condition of the earth before God said, "Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). Precise translation of the phrase is difficult, as only the first word, "tohu," appears to have any independent meaning.

There is evidence that the sentence And the earth was without form and void (tohu vbohu) indicates destruction, not simply primitive creation. This phrase is rendered more strongly elsewhere (i.e., in other ancient versions). For example, the Chaldee Version has But the earth had become desert and empty, the Septuagint has But the earth had become unfurnished and empty, and the Aramaic has And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited.

Again, this is not something I've looked into deeply, which is why I indicated it was speculation when I mentioned it. But there would seem to be some evidence. It's rather interesting, is all I can say.

Interesting...as i read it here, it appears to be saying that before the earth was formed at all, it was "without form and void" until God formed it.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void;

~Anastasia~ · May 22, 2014

brinny said:
Interesting...as i read it here, it appears to be saying that before the earth was formed at all, it was "without form and void" until God formed it.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void;

I think the reason they call it the "Gap theory" (which I am not conversant on, but I think it fits into this) is the opposite.

1. God created the heavens and the earth.

(Implied - stuff happened - Satan being cast down onto God's earth?)

As a result ...
2. The earth had become desolate (was without form and void).

I'm not trying to argue for it or against it, it's just an idea. And not mine.

But I see it (right now) as one possibility.

brinny · May 22, 2014

If you can point out in the Bible anything about a gap theory i'd like to read it.....

just wonderin' what the theory of the gap theory would be based on.....hahaaaaa that's a tongue twister

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 22, 2014

The gap theory is VERY controversial for those who argue the 6 day creation and those who reconcile old earth.

brinny · May 22, 2014

maid in His image said:
The gap theory is VERY controversial for those who argue the 6 day creation and those who reconcile old earth.

6 day creation? Old earth?

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 22, 2014

brinny said:
If you can point out in the Bible anything about a gap theory i'd like to read it.....

just wonderin' what the theory of the gap theory would be based on.....hahaaaaa that's a tongue twister

Here's some verses that you could look up

God rebuked Satan, "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries" (Ezek. 28:18). So, the heavens and the earth were also judged by God. Job 9:5-7 says that God overturned the mountains in His anger, shook the earth out of its place, commanded the sun not to rise, and sealed the stars. When did God do this? We cannot find a record of such an event in human history. It must have happened before the Adamic world, at the time God judged the heavens and the earth due to the rebellion of Satan and his followers. Because of God's judgment, the heavens did not shine. The earth was covered by darkness. The fact that the earth, after being judged by God, was buried under the deep water proves that God must have judged the earth by flooding it with water. So, "the earth became waste and empty," buried under deep water, and covered with darkness (Gen. 1:2).

Isaiah 45:18 tells us, "God created the earth not a waste" (Heb.). Job 38:4-7 shows that God created the earth in good order. It says that when God "laid the foundations of the earth," "laid the measures thereof," and "stretched the line upon it," "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God [the angels] shouted for joy." When God laid the foundations of the earth, He laid the measure upon it and stretched the line upon it. This means that He created it in good order. So, when the morning stars saw it, they were excited and sang, and when all the angels saw it, they shouted for joy. When did this happen? It must have happened in Genesis 1:1, not in Genesis 1:2. How could the morning stars sing and the angels shout for joy when the earth became waste and empty?

Whenever these two words "waste" and "empty" are used together in the Old Testament, they always denote a result of judgment. We see this in Jeremiah 4:23 ("without form, and void" should be "waste and empty," Heb.), in Isaiah 24:1, and in Isaiah 34:11 ("confusion" should be "a waste," Heb.). Whatever has been judged by God becomes waste and empty. The earth became waste and empty because it was judged by God.

The darkness which was upon the surface of the deep was also a sign declaring that the universe of that age was judged, because darkness comes from God's judgment (cf. Exo. 10:21-22; Rev. 16:10).

Thus, the earth mentioned in Genesis 1:2 was not in the same condition as when created by God originally. It was created by God in a good order, but it "became" waste and empty. The word "became" is the same word as used in Genesis 19:26 which says that Lot's wife "became a pillar of salt." She was not a pillar of salt, but she became one. In the same principle, the earth originally was not waste and empty, but it became so.

brinny · May 22, 2014

maid in His image said:
Here's some verses that you could look up

Thanks.....

interesting.....the only judgement that i've seen mentioned in the Bible is the one to come...that is when the judgement of God happens and the destruction of Satan comes....

for example in this verse:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27

Interesting theory, but i don't see how that theory developed from these Bible verses used, unless there's something else in the Bible i missed....

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 22, 2014

brinny said:
6 day creation? Old earth?

Those who believe the earth is 6 thousand years old and those who believe there is a gap between it being created and recreated for mankind. Obviously the verses were provided to explain the gap. I have no idea how those verses about Lucifer fit with other beliefs. Not sure how satan's judgement and earth's judgement tie in either :sorry:

brinny · May 22, 2014

hahaaaaa i dunno either, but it is interesting......never saw anything about a "gap" in the Bible and it's interesting that there are different theories about all of it....

the only new heaven and new earth written about anywhere in the Bible is in Revelation, as far as i know.....and this is when the fer-ever and ever begins with no more sin in the picture, ever...

don't see anything about "re-created" anywhere....

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 22, 2014

ya let me know when you find the words trinity and rapture too ^_^

brinny · May 22, 2014

maid in His image said:
ya let me know when you find the words trinity and rapture too

hahaaaaa never much thought about it...they're not in the Bible?

~Anastasia~ · May 22, 2014

Gap theory (which I'm not arguing for or against) came about when they decided the earth had to be more than 6000 years old, but they wanted to believe in a 6-day creation with the genealogies of the Bible as listed, with their ages. The ages take you back to roughly 6,000 years ago.

So, they figured the earth was created (so older than 6,000 years) - and had to develop a reason why it was destroyed so that Adam and Eve and this creation were 6,000 years ago (if created in a literal 6 days).

At least that's supposedly the reason behind the theory, if it didn't exist before recent times. I'm not sure if that was the first suggestion of it or not, particularly since the Septuagint and Aramaic versions of the Creation say what they supposedly say.

If you want to read more about it, there's tons of stuff online I'm sure, if you google "Gap theory". Just as a comparison, you might want to check wiki for competing theories like "day-age theory" and so on.

They all have "holes" imo, but some more than others.

I wouldn't go basing any major theological thought on any of it. It's more of an interesting diversion, I'd say, which is why I have not studied it more indepth. I got what I needed from all of it and have left it alone since then, which was some years back.

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 22, 2014

brinny said:
hahaaaaa never much thought about it...they're not in the Bible?

no and I don't know how far back tradition goes on those either. They all are taken from scripture and expounded on over the years to come to our present understanding of them......great topic btw :wave:

~Anastasia~ · May 22, 2014

maid in His image said:
no and I don't know how far back tradition goes on those either. They all are taken from scripture and expounded on over the years to come to our present understanding of them......great topic btw

I have no idea about the rapture, but the idea of the Trinity goes WAY back. It is clear in both the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed.

~Anastasia~ · May 22, 2014

Apostles' Creed

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

From CCEL

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 22, 2014

Kylissa said:
I have no idea about the rapture, but the idea of the Trinity goes WAY back. It is clear in both the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed.

There tradition may be clear but as to the subject of this thread not so clear

btw how can you tell I know nothing of traditions hehe except the codes by which Christians live

Citizen of the Kingdom · May 22, 2014

Kylissa said:
Apostles' Creed

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

From CCEL

Thank you I'm quite familiar with the Christian codes that make for orthodox teaching. I wasn't meaning to infer that. I was simply pointing out that the words rapture and trinity are no more words of scripture than gap or recreate.
:o

Just wonderin'.....

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