My Psalm 19:1 challenge

Strathos · May 19, 2014

This is in regards to astrophysics/deep time. For creationists who deny astronomical evidence showing the universe to be billions of years old, and make claims like God created the light en-route, or the physics were/are different in different times and places and give false results, or age is somehow "embedded" into the universe when it's not actually that old, how do you reconcile this:

Psalm 19:1 said:
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

If God is hiding the true nature and age of the universe, then wouldn't that make this verse false?

I maintain that when astronomers and cosmologists study the universe and find its size, age, and beginning in the Big Bang, this is exactly what God meant for them to find. It's a testament to His work and the processes He used to create it all.

AV1611VET · May 19, 2014

Strathos said:
If God is hiding the true nature and age of the universe, then wouldn't that make this verse false?

No.

If you look at these things as "easter eggs," rather than attempts to deceive, then the paradox clears up.

Let's take a look at one.

David, holding a rock in his hand, may say that the rock couldn't be older than 4000 years old, based on the genealogies of the Scriptures.

But David would be wrong -- a fact that would not come out for thousands of years to come, when radiometric dating discovers this major "easter egg."

It's not that God "hid the age" of the rock from David -- it's that David didn't have the tools or the know-how to ascertain the rock's age in the first place.

Make sense?

Paul of Eugene OR · May 19, 2014

Strathos said:
This is in regards to astrophysics/deep time. For creationists who deny astronomical evidence showing the universe to be billions of years old, and make claims like God created the light en-route, or the physics were/are different in different times and places and give false results, or age is somehow "embedded" into the universe when it's not actually that old, how do you reconcile this:

If God is hiding the true nature and age of the universe, then wouldn't that make this verse false?

I maintain that when astronomers and cosmologists study the universe and find its size, age, and beginning in the Big Bang, this is exactly what God meant for them to find. It's a testament to His work and the processes He used to create it all.

The whole universe is a great thought in the mind of God. That's all it is, and it is all of that. God of course has thoughts other than our universe, perhaps other universes as well, but who knows.

Anyway, in order for the grand appearance of age we see . . . with all the details worked out so perfectly . . . clearly, the whole past seen by science for millions and billions of years back was also worked out in the mind of God.

So if the whole past was worked out in the mind of God, and all things are also merely a work of the mind of God, in what way can we possibly assert that the past beyond 6000 years ago is in any way less real? Its all in there, after all, in the mind of God.

Strathos · May 20, 2014

AV1611VET said:
No.

If you look at these things as "easter eggs," rather than attempts to deceive, then the paradox clears up.

Let's take a look at one.

David, holding a rock in his hand, may say that the rock couldn't be older than 4000 years old, based on the genealogies of the Scriptures.

But David would be wrong -- a fact that would not come out for thousands of years to come, when radiometric dating discovers this major "easter egg."

It's not that God "hid the age" of the rock from David -- it's that David didn't have the tools or the know-how to ascertain the rock's age in the first place.

Make sense?

Not at all.

Paul of Eugene OR said:
The whole universe is a great thought in the mind of God. That's all it is, and it is all of that. God of course has thoughts other than our universe, perhaps other universes as well, but who knows.

Anyway, in order for the grand appearance of age we see . . . with all the details worked out so perfectly . . . clearly, the whole past seen by science for millions and billions of years back was also worked out in the mind of God.

So if the whole past was worked out in the mind of God, and all things are also merely a work of the mind of God, in what way can we possibly assert that the past beyond 6000 years ago is in any way less real? Its all in there, after all, in the mind of God.

Yes, but I'm addressing people who claim that any evidence that shows the universe being older than 6000 years is false.

Kylie · May 20, 2014

AV1611VET said:
No.

If you look at these things as "easter eggs," rather than attempts to deceive, then the paradox clears up.

Let's take a look at one.

David, holding a rock in his hand, may say that the rock couldn't be older than 4000 years old, based on the genealogies of the Scriptures.

But David would be wrong -- a fact that would not come out for thousands of years to come, when radiometric dating discovers this major "easter egg."

It's not that God "hid the age" of the rock from David -- it's that David didn't have the tools or the know-how to ascertain the rock's age in the first place.

Make sense?

But it's still wrong. If radiometric dating tells us the rock has existed for millions of years, yet it hasn't, then what science says is wrong. Likewise, if astronomy tells us the stars have existed for billions of years, and they haven't then what we learn from the heavens is false, and the passage is incorrect.

SkyWriting · May 20, 2014

Strathos said:
This is in regards to astrophysics/deep time. For creationists who deny astronomical evidence showing the universe to be billions of years old, and make claims like God created the light en-route, or the physics were/are different in different times and places and give false results, or age is somehow "embedded" into the universe when it's not actually that old, how do you reconcile this: If God is hiding the true nature and age of the universe, then wouldn't that make this verse false?

I dunno.

Heaping oppression upon oppression, and deceit upon deceit, they refuse to know me, declares the LORD.

New International Version
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

New Living Translation
So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.

English Standard Version
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

New American Standard Bible
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

TLK Valentine · May 20, 2014

AV1611VET said:
No.

If you look at these things as "easter eggs," rather than attempts to deceive, then the paradox clears up.

Let's take a look at one.

David, holding a rock in his hand, may say that the rock couldn't be older than 4000 years old, based on the genealogies of the Scriptures.

But David would be wrong -- a fact that would not come out for thousands of years to come, when radiometric dating discovers this major "easter egg."

It's not that God "hid the age" of the rock from David -- it's that David didn't have the tools or the know-how to ascertain the rock's age in the first place.

Make sense?

It would, except according to you, the rock was only created 4000 years ago, so David's right and the "easter egg" is false.

Under your "embedded age" idea, the "glory" is God's ability to "embed" things that never happened.

AV1611VET · May 20, 2014

TLK Valentine said:
It would, except according to you, the rock was only created 4000 years ago, so David's right and the "easter egg" is false.

David would be wrong ... saying the rock cannot be more than 4000 years old, when he is holding a rock that is say, 50,000 years old would be wrong.

If David were to say that the rock has been in existence not more than 4000 years, then he would be correct; and the easter egg stands.

TLK Valentine said:
Under your "embedded age" idea, the "glory" is God's ability to "embed" things that never happened.

And what do you think I think didn't happen?

Embedded age is "maturity without history" -- so nothing happened.

Heissonear · May 20, 2014

Strathos said:
This is in regards to astrophysics/deep time. For creationists who deny astronomical evidence showing the universe to be billions of years old, and make claims like God created the light en-route, or the physics were/are different in different times and places and give false results, or age is somehow "embedded" into the universe when it's not actually that old, how do you reconcile this:

If God is hiding the true nature and age of the universe, then wouldn't that make this verse false?.

.

There is nothing to reconcile, Psalms 19:1 is clear to what you just presented.

What He did was like with Adam and Eve, they had apparent NATURAL age. That is a very clear example of the first man and woman on earth.

As a life long geologist I'm aware of a multitude of natural artifacts about this earth. But you lack what I once lacked, how God does not let natural man find Him through his intelligence, nor own search and discovery in nature. That is how He set things up, through His foreknowledge and purpose. It was His intention that man could only find Him through the Holy Spirit.

In the natural realm God designed and made it natural, so when people like you and I "try to find God" in nature we do not. If you trip right here than it is His intentions, you want to be merely physical, of the five senses, in truth. To date you have not become aware of the Spiritual Realm, even the Holy Spirit working in you to turn to Him by your freewill. It has been your choice but in accordance to as He purposed and Has set up this present existence.

Again, if you could go up to Eve the day after she was made and ask her how old she is, when she said one day you would have called her a liar. I'm a geologist, but one who has met Him in no uncertain way. For typical Naturalists and Evolutionists this young earth is a stumbling block, plain and simple. Seeking Him through your five senses has made you call this young earth a liar.

.

lesliedellow · May 20, 2014

People who think God would deliberately plant false clues, to make us think the universe is older than it is, have got a pretty strange conception of God anyway.

It just shows how far people will go, in an attempt to hang on to nonsense.

TLK Valentine · May 20, 2014

AV1611VET said:
David would be wrong ... saying the rock cannot be more than 4000 years old, when he is holding a rock that is say, 50,000 years old would be wrong.

If David were to say that the rock has been in existence not more than 4000 years, then he would be correct; and the easter egg stands.

I guess the real "easter egg" is buried in God's petty semantics -- oh, wait, those are yours.

And what do you think I think didn't happen?

Embedded age is "maturity without history" -- so nothing happened.

The problem is that age is a measure of history, not maturity -- take it out of the equation, and your "age" is false.

Heissonear · May 20, 2014

KTS said:
........... If radiometric dating tells us the rock has existed for millions of years, yet it hasn't, then what science says is wrong. Likewise, if astronomy tells us the stars have existed for billions of years, and they haven't then what we learn from the heavens is false, .......

.

KTS, I've taken a selected portion of what you stated - because of what you state without the add ons is correct - God has made everything have an apparent age from an "only scientific and Naturalistic viewpoint."

The error is in saying science and the natural realm in and of themselves gives the final answer to this existence. In that specific conclusion of "ad on - what gives the final answer" - such conclusions are not true, is not the case, in accordance to what God has purposed in this Creation. God has the final say between what is true and false, right from wrong, good from evil. He has the final word. That is who and how He is.

As mentioned before, I'm a geologist and was made aware of our natural realm long before believing in a God. Through my five senses and scientific inquiry I was lead to be a Naturalists and a Naturalist I became. But God knew I had stumbled, and continued through His Spirit to work in turning me to Him, again not through my five senses and evidence within the physical world. He kept saying there is far more, and it is Me you are missing. Well, after seeking to determine if He was, and after experiencing the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I knew what I had been missing, and not only I but others on the same five senses path of Naturalistic living.

.

KWCrazy · May 20, 2014

Strathos said:
If God is hiding the true nature and age of the universe, then wouldn't that make this verse false?

Who determines what is true? Does truth lie with the perceptions of man or with the nature of God?

How could you determine age without a definite beginning? God waving His hand and saying, "Let there be a universe" is no more impossible than any other theory of origination. As we read in Genesis, all things were created in their mature form. That included the stars whose light shone on the earth though they were many light years away. God, who created everything including natural law, is not bound by the need to wait for things to happen naturally. What would take man a billion years He can do in an instant. How then are we, who are not capable of even comprehending the infinite power of God, to ascribe long ages to something He created with the simple command, "Let there be...?" Beyond that, how can we have such faith in the creation and so little in the Creator to say that the apparent age of the creation means the Creator lied to us about the process?

Truly, the Heavens declare the glory of God. Some, however, are not capable of hearing that declaration.

TLK Valentine · May 20, 2014

Heissonear said:
As mentioned before, I'm a geologist and was made aware of our natural realm long before believing in a God.

And since you now maintain that everything you knew before was wrong, being a (former) geologist doesn't mean much, does it?

AV1611VET · May 20, 2014

TLK Valentine said:
I guess the real "easter egg" is buried in God's petty semantics -- oh, wait, those are yours.

Again, the easter egg in this case is the age of the rock.

TLK Valentine said:
The problem is that age is a measure of history, not maturity -- take it out of the equation, and your "age" is false.

Only because you are thinking unilaterally.

To you, age is a product of the aging process -- nothing more.

But God can take this noun (age), and insert it into His creation.

KWCrazy · May 20, 2014

TLK Valentine said:
And since you now maintain that everything you knew before was wrong, being a (former) geologist doesn't mean much, does it?

No personal offense intended to the poster, but that's the most profoundly ignorant post I've read in some time.

FORMER geologist? So if a person finds the Lord they lose their credentials? Let me quote what was written. "As mentioned before, I'm a geologist..." So this person has studied geology, knows the science, has worked in the field professionally, and now given his experience and insight he discovered that everything was created by God. I'd wager to say that he knows more about geology than most atheists and more about God than ALL atheists.

This is why naturalists give science a bad name. They only believe in the science that supports their position, and they renounce all interpretations of science that come to a different conclusion. In short, they're dishonest. They proclaim that anyone who looks at the same evidence and comes to a different conclusion must be less informed, poorly educated or just simple minded.

How sad.

Sasquatchit · May 20, 2014

KWCrazy said:
Who determines what is true? Does truth lie with the perceptions of man or with the nature of God?

How could you determine age without a definite beginning? God waving His hand and saying, "Let there be a universe" is no more impossible than any other theory of origination. As we read in Genesis, all things were created in their mature form. That included the stars whose light shone on the earth though they were many light years away. God, who created everything including natural law, is not bound by the need to wait for things to happen naturally. What would take man a billion years He can do in an instant. How then are we, who are not capable of even comprehending the infinite power of God, to ascribe long ages to something He created with the simple command, "Let there be...?" Beyond that, how can we have such faith in the creation and so little in the Creator to say that the apparent age of the creation means the Creator lied to us about the process?

Truly, the Heavens declare the glory of God. Some, however, are not capable of hearing that declaration.

How true!

However, at the same time, it's so sad to find so many people so closed minded.

AV1611VET · May 20, 2014

KWCrazy said:
No personal offense intended to the poster, but that's the most profoundly ignorant post I've read in some time.

FORMER geologist? So if a person finds the Lord they lose their credentials? Let me quote what was written. "As mentioned before, I'm a geologist..." So this person has studied geology, knows the science, has worked in the field professionally, and now given his experience and insight he discovered that everything was created by God. I'd wager to say that he knows more about geology than most atheists and more about God than ALL atheists.

This is why naturalists give science a bad name. They only believe in the science that supports their position, and they renounce all interpretations of science that come to a different conclusion. In short, they're dishonest. They proclaim that anyone who looks at the same evidence and comes to a different conclusion must be less informed, poorly educated or just simple minded.

How sad.

Psalm 19 is my favorite Psalm.

It's in two parts:

The first part tells the reader to look to God's creation as a display of His handywork -- what we call general revelation.

The second half tells the reader to look to God's words for enlightenment -- what we call specific revelation.

What is being revealed is what we call apocalyptic truth.

An apocalyptic truth is a {truth, fact, data point} so well-hidden, that only the holder of this truth knows what it is.

For example, I'm thinking of a number right now between one and ten ... what is it?

You don't know it, but I do, and only I can enlighten my audience as to what it is: (seven).

BL2KTN · May 20, 2014

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

The firmament is the imagined, invisible dome that holds back the rain waters. It doesn't exist, and any cosmological statement the author has to convey is as pertinent to science as fairies raising the sun each day.

AV1611VET · May 20, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

The firmament is the imagined, invisible dome that holds back the rain waters. It doesn't exist, and any cosmological statement the author has to convey is as pertinent to science as fairies raising the sun each day.

The firmament in Psalm 19:1 is what we call second heaven.

You know it as outer space.

It is a containment area, populated by planets, moons, stars, etc.

My Psalm 19:1 challenge

No one important

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Finally Old Enough

No one important

Defeater of Illogic

The Librarian

I've already read the books you want burned.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Geochemist and Stratigrapher

Member

I've already read the books you want burned.

Geochemist and Stratigrapher

Newbie

I've already read the books you want burned.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Newbie

Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Scholar, Author, Educator

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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