Why do people fight this verse?

7sForDays

Irregular Member
Apr 23, 2014
695
19
✟1,035.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Rom 11:28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News,

and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people He loves because

He chose their ancestors
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.



Sound familiar? It should.

2Sa 9:7 David said to him, "Do not fear, for I will surely show kindness to you for the sake of your father Jonathan, and will restore to you all the land of your grandfather Saul; and you shall eat at my table regularly."








Doesnt make sense not to take this into account, no matter how much you want to discredit the Jews.

They exist, and by Gods Grace alone do they exist, in Israel no less, where Christ is going to return to.

If the Jews arent supposed to be in Israel, there is really no point for Christ to touch his feet on the Mt. of Olives.
 
Last edited:

7sForDays

Irregular Member
Apr 23, 2014
695
19
✟1,035.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
2Sa 9:7 David said to him, "Do not fear, for I will surely show kindness to you for the sake of your father Jonathan, and will restore to you all the land of your grandfather Saul; and you shall eat at my table regularly."

What did Mephibosheth do to deserve grace?

Absolutely nothing.
 
Upvote 0

John S

I'm Here - For Now
Nov 19, 2010
3,135
74
✟11,359.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Anyone who thinks that they are superior to the Jews or that God has abandoned them, are not very bright. These are the same people who foolishly think that their denomination is superior to all of the other Christian denominations.
I even read where someone here said that the Jews of the past 2000 years are in Hell. How moronic can you get? That is just plain ignorance.
 
Upvote 0

7sForDays

Irregular Member
Apr 23, 2014
695
19
✟1,035.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Anyone who thinks that they are superior to the Jews or that God has abandoned them, are not very bright. These are the same people who foolishly think that their denomination is superior to all of the other Christian denominations.
I even read where someone here said that the Jews of the past 2000 years are in Hell. How moronic can you get? That is just plain ignorance.

While I dont blame them for thinking that, the Bible says they would, but we are supposed to show the Jews the grace.


They are the reason we have salvation to begin with.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Anyone who thinks that they are superior to the Jews or that God has abandoned them, are not very bright. These are the same people who foolishly think that their denomination is superior to all of the other Christian denominations.
I even read where someone here said that the Jews of the past 2000 years are in Hell. How moronic can you get? That is just plain ignorance.
Perhaps.
That was also brought up on this other thread concerning Jews and God:

Originally Posted by 7sForDays
What about according to you?

Do you believe the Jews that died during the last 2000 years and never knew Christ are in hell?

Im not talking to a consensus, Im talking to you.

Yes or no?


Its like pulling teeth to get people to answer questions around here... Its like everyone is afraid they are going to say the wrong thing or something..




.
 
Upvote 0

Interplanner

Newbie
Aug 5, 2012
11,882
113
near Olympic National Park
✟12,847.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
That is if you change the meaning of "all" Israel at that point. He means all through time, and he means the people who believe the Gospel (not a race merely for genetic reasons) and he means the same as "us" "the remnant" "the elect" and "the objects of mercy" meant through this passage. If you timestamp a race for a certain future moment, you have just deleted those who perished in 1900 or any other earlier time.

Instead, it is a complete, working vital order at his (Paul's) time, so whatever you say must extend from that; you can't change its nature wholesale and move to the future and say it is the same offer.

Back to Abraham's day or will you just be rude and not return to it?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,766
3,418
Non-dispensationalist
✟358,838.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
the offer to include Jews in Gods mission is in Christ. It is not future. there is no dealings with whole races at a time.
Jews are not a race. They are the blood descendants of a man who's name was changed to Israel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,766
3,418
Non-dispensationalist
✟358,838.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That is if you change the meaning of "all" Israel at that point. He means all through time......

No, he doesn't. That's part of the fallacy of your argument.

All Israel means the united country, not divided into the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Paul qualifies his statement by saying when the times of the gentiles be fulfilled.

The land of Israel has been occupied by the gentiles for the 2000 year diaspora. In 1948, the Jews reformed the country, as the united country, and is no longer run by the gentile nations.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

John S

I'm Here - For Now
Nov 19, 2010
3,135
74
✟11,359.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Jews are ONE Tribe of Israel - Judah - the ONLY Tribe that would maintain its identity. There are 11 more, plus the 2 Tribes of Joseph's sons, which were adopted by Jacob.
Those "Lost Tribes" are still out there. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea and God keeps His promises.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,766
3,418
Non-dispensationalist
✟358,838.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Jews are ONE Tribe of Israel - Judah - the ONLY Tribe that would maintain its identity. There are 11 more, plus the 2 Tribes of Joseph's sons, which were adopted by Jacob.
Those "Lost Tribes" are still out there. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea and God keeps His promises.
A Jew is someone who's mother is a Jew. The tribe is based on the side of the father. Most Jews do not know what tribe they are of.

Do you know of any Jews who's name is "Levi" ? Is Levi - the tribe of Judah?
 
Upvote 0

John S

I'm Here - For Now
Nov 19, 2010
3,135
74
✟11,359.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Not that many Jews are of the Tribes of Joseph, Zabulon, Dan, Reuben, etc. When the Assyrians conquered the Kingdom of Israel, they exiled the people and they NEVER returned. They were "Lost" to history - but God KNOWS where they are - just as Jacob prophesized in Genesis 49. They are NOT Jews. More than likely, they are you, me, the entire Western Hemisphere, and plenty of other places spread throughout the world.

As I said, when God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea, He did NOT lie to him.
 
Upvote 0

riverrat

Newbie
Feb 28, 2011
2,026
49
✟17,518.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That is if you change the meaning of "all" Israel at that point. He means all through time, and he means the people who believe the Gospel (not a race merely for genetic reasons) and he means the same as "us" "the remnant" "the elect" and "the objects of mercy" meant through this passage. If you timestamp a race for a certain future moment, you have just deleted those who perished in 1900 or any other earlier time.

Instead, it is a complete, working vital order at his (Paul's) time, so whatever you say must extend from that; you can't change its nature wholesale and move to the future and say it is the same offer.

Back to Abraham's day or will you just be rude and not return to it?
You read minds instead of reading scripture and believing it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,766
3,418
Non-dispensationalist
✟358,838.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Not that many Jews are of the Tribes of Joseph, Zabulon, Dan, Reuben, etc. When the Assyrians conquered the Kingdom of Israel, they exiled the people and they NEVER returned. They were "Lost" to history - but God KNOWS where they are - just as Jacob prophesized in Genesis 49. They are NOT Jews. More than likely, they are you, me, the entire Western Hemisphere, and plenty of other places spread throughout the world.

As I said, when God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea, He did NOT lie to him.
The Assyrian captives did not return en-masse. That doesn't mean that they didn't return individually over the course of time. You have no idea of who returned and who didn't. You are just making an unfounded claim on your own whim.

Please quote and highlight the bible verse that says they were lost to God. You know from Revelation 7, that there are 144,000 of the twelve tribes central to the time of the beast, who will be involved.

The bible says that God would reunite the two sticks of Ephraim (Israel) and Judah. The country over there is the reunited country of Israel. All twelve tribes are there - because God joined the two sticks together as one nation.

A Jew is someone who's mother is a Jew. The father's side determines the tribe based on that coming out of Egypt they were told to form according to their "fathers"

Abraham is a different issue. Abraham's name was not changed to Israel. There is no nation called Abraham in the world. The many descendants of Abraham by faith are in all the nations, tribes, kindreds, people. But it is not talking about the descendants of Jacob in those verses.

His grandson, Jacob, is the one who's name was changed to Israel, and the twelve tribes originated as his sons.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
Interplanner said in post 7:

the offer to include Jews in Gods mission is in Christ.

That's right.

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
John S said in post 12:

The Jews are ONE Tribe of Israel - Judah - the ONLY Tribe that would maintain its identity.

Note that Jews include individuals from tribes of Israel other than Judah. For Paul is truly a Jew (Acts 22:3), and he's of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1). Indeed, Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history. For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. That's why later the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they're Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity, over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

--

Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they're elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

John S said in post 12:

God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea and God keeps His promises.

Amen.

God indeed promised a figurative "I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore" (Genesis 22:17). But this was already fulfilled by only about 6 million Israelites at the time of the Exodus (Deuteronomy 1:10). And so Romans 9:27 and Isaiah 10:22 can refer to only a remnant being saved out of a few million people.
 
Upvote 0

John S

I'm Here - For Now
Nov 19, 2010
3,135
74
✟11,359.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Assyrian captives did not return en-masse. That doesn't mean that they didn't return individually over the course of time. You have no idea of who returned and who didn't. You are just making an unfounded claim on your own whim.

Please quote and highlight the bible verse that says they were lost to God. You know from Revelation 7, that there are 144,000 of the twelve tribes central to the time of the beast, who will be involved.

The bible says that God would reunite the two sticks of Ephraim (Israel) and Judah. The country over there is the reunited country of Israel. All twelve tribes are there - because God joined the two sticks together as one nation.

A Jew is someone who's mother is a Jew. The father's side determines the tribe based on that coming out of Egypt they were told to form according to their "fathers"

Abraham is a different issue. Abraham's name was not changed to Israel. There is no nation called Abraham in the world. The many descendants of Abraham by faith are in all the nations, tribes, kindreds, people. But it is not talking about the descendants of Jacob in those verses.

His grandson, Jacob, is the one who's name was changed to Israel, and the twelve tribes originated as his sons.
1. Assyrian captives didn't return at all.
2.You are either lying or you can't read. I NEVER said that the Tribes of Israel were lost to God, On the contrary, I said that they were NOT lost to God. He KNOWS where they are.
3. My "unfounded claim on my own whim" is actually the prophecies of Jacob in Genesis 49.
4. Of the 144,000 members of the Elect, the one TRUE church of God, only 12,000 will be Jews - the Tribe of Judah - and the other 132,000 will be Christians.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,766
3,418
Non-dispensationalist
✟358,838.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
1. Assyrian captives didn't return at all.

Give a bible verse proving that point.


2.You are either lying or you can't read. I NEVER said that the Tribes of Israel were lost to God, On the contrary, I said that they were NOT lost to God. He KNOWS where they are.
And my proof is Isaiah 66:7-8, that all twelve tribes, Ephraim and Judah, are the nation of Israel borne in a single day. May15, 1948.
3. My "unfounded claim on my own whim" is actually the prophecies of Jacob in Genesis 49.
Genesis 49 was long before the Assyrian captivity. And doesn't mention the Assyrian captivity. Provide a bible verse following the Assyrian captivity that says - " Assyrian captives didn't return at all" - something to that effect.

4. Of the 144,000 members of the Elect, the one TRUE church of God, only 12,000 will be Jews - the Tribe of Judah - and the other 132,000 will be Christians.
:doh: Christians are not back fitted into the 12 tribes. If you are not a blood descent of Jacob, and your mother is not a Jew, you are not of any of the twelve tribes.

Go read Ezra, the entire chapters 9-10, which is right after the Babylonian captivity. The remanent caretaker fathers which did not go into the Babylonian were from the Children of Israel, but their wives were not.

Thus, the mother of their mixed marriage offspring were not Jews, and because of that the offspring were not considered of the children of Israel, although their fathers were. And they sent their children away, because they were not considered Children of Israel. Here is the verse regarding sending away their children, who's mothers were not of the children of Israel.

Ezra 10:
3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.

Christians are of all kindred's. Christians are not any of the twelve tribes, unless a person becomes a Christian who happens to also be a blood descendant of Jacob. Christians like the 12 apostles.

Revelation 8:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
 
Upvote 0