I Challenge all Believers to...

Ana the Ist

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Go one year without attending church or praying. I'll explain...

Another poster on this forum made a similar thread where he challenged all non-believers to attend church one Sunday. I think that he thought it important for everyone to step out of their comfort zone and test their beliefs. What he didn't anticipate, me course, is that most non-believers have been to church and in some cases...they still do. It made me wonder just how many believers would be willing to try something similar?

Something I used to see a lot on other forums where flaming and personal attacks are more common, is a situation where atheists and christians will end up accusing each other of being "close-minded". The christians will claim that the atheists are unable to comprehend some aspect of christianity (faith, miracles, prayer, god, etc.) because they are too close minded. Likewise, the atheists will accuse the christians of being too close-minded to understand evolution or the big bang, or a system of morality without god.

To me, "close-minded" means that someone has literally closed their mind to understanding an idea or concept. That person chooses to remain ignorant about something, the reasons "why" may vary, but ultimately they will not challenge a belief they hold with the possibility it may be wrong or at least not entirely correct.

So obviously, I cannot ask a believer to try to not believe in god for awhile and see how it goes. It's not as if belief is a switch you can merely turn off at the moment of your choosing. So instead, I'm going to ask you to challenge the notion that prayer and/or worship genuinely affect your life. It's quite simple really...stop going to church and praying for a year and see if your life changes in any significant way. Why a whole year? You get better results that way...a week or a month may not be sufficient time to notice any change (if there is a change)...I figure a year would be enough time.

Now keep in mind, I have no doubt that prayer/church does affect you in some way. I just happen to believe that the ways they affect you are entirely in your head. An example would be a good feeling you get after a Sunday morning at church. Another example would be you pray for something (say a solution to money problems) and three days later you get a callback about a job. IMO the callback would've happened regardless of whether you prayed or not...but the believer may well believe their prayer was answered. You, as the believer, will simply have to do your best to make sure that any changes are actual changes...not some perceived result of not praying or attending church. It could help to look up the term "self fulfilling prophecy" if you're not already familiar with the idea.

So what do you think? Any takers?
 

znr

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What are you hoping will happen if I / we stop praying for a year? That's a bit of a committment to ask another. (I don't really attend church much because I'm skittish around people, but I'm open to attending at some point.)

When I pray for something, I must accept whatever answer comes like it or not, good or bad. If it's a yes, and the something hoped for arrives, I assume that it's an answer, but I don't assume that it was "God's will" in the sense that God is the author of every specific answer. In a way, that sort of prayer (the genie in a bottle prayers) is a bit like going to a psychic and asking to know the future. As a believer I'm compelled to accept the worst case scenario where the answer may be silence. I can't speak for others, but personally I've found it pretty hard to know precisely which answers are a direct result of prayer, but I make the assumption that whatever the result of prayer is, it's the correct one for that time.

If I'm not qualified to get a job and I get it (because I pray all the time, not always so specifically) I thank God for it, but I don't neccesarily believe that God intends that I view all answers as a result of my prayer; I rather think that God simply wants to get my attention in all cases as a means of fellowship.

When I pray I believe that all things are working out together for good. Maybe the guy hiring that day needed a body, and I was it. In that case, I'm grateful and thank God for the job, but when the job suddenly ends a few weeks later, I'd like to think that too was some type of answer, like no.

Hmmm, well let me sum my thoughts up with this: Proverbs 3:6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.. It simply states that when we submit ourselvles to God that answers will come, which ones, we can't be sure of 100% of the time nor can we really link the action of prayer to the result of the answer as often as we'd like to believe...again, in my opinion anyway, that's a bit like going to a psychic and hoping to be told the future, or worse yet, putting a few prayers in a vending machine. To live this way, always expecting a prayer to be answered in the way you've described above often leads to disappointment when the prayer goes unanswered, and a lot do. I found long ago I didn't care much for this type of prayer. It's too much drama, being so up when I get what I want, then down when I don't. I'd rather just distance myself from the process and trust that I'm going to get what I need at some point.

Praying, for me, it's is like communion with God; the best bits are unanswered prayers where I just feel a sense of peace that transcends whatever need may be pressing. I wouldn't be able to not pray for a year, but the type of prayer you're challenging people to go on a sabbatical from isn't how I pray anyway.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I agree with znr, the two challenges are different - "Do X, because I believe God will move you in mysterious ways" vs. "Stop doing X, because it's the opposite of the other challenge". The first one had a specious logic to it, this one... doesn't.
 
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Ana the Ist

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What are you hoping will happen if I / we stop praying for a year? That's a bit of a committment to ask another. (I don't really attend church much because I'm skittish around people, but I'm open to attending at some point.)

When I pray for something, I must accept whatever answer comes like it or not, good or bad. If it's a yes, and the something hoped for arrives, I assume that it's an answer, but I don't assume that it was "God's will" in the sense that God is the author of every specific answer. In a way, that sort of prayer (the genie in a bottle prayers) is a bit like going to a psychic and asking to know the future. As a believer I'm compelled to accept the worst case scenario where the answer may be silence. I can't speak for others, but personally I've found it pretty hard to know precisely which answers are a direct result of prayer, but I make the assumption that whatever the result of prayer is, it's the correct one for that time.

If I'm not qualified to get a job and I get it (because I pray all the time, not always so specifically) I thank God for it, but I don't neccesarily believe that God intends that I view all answers as a result of my prayer; I rather think that God simply wants to get my attention in all cases as a means of fellowship.

When I pray I believe that all things are working out together for good. Maybe the guy hiring that day needed a body, and I was it. In that case, I'm grateful and thank God for the job, but when the job suddenly ends a few weeks later, I'd like to think that too was some type of answer, like no.

Hmmm, well let me sum my thoughts up with this: Proverbs 3:6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.. It simply states that when we submit ourselvles to God that answers will come, which ones, we can't be sure of 100% of the time nor can we really link the action of prayer to the result of the answer as often as we'd like to believe...again, in my opinion anyway, that's a bit like going to a psychic and hoping to be told the future, or worse yet, putting a few prayers in a vending machine. To live this way, always expecting a prayer to be answered in the way you've described above often leads to disappointment when the prayer goes unanswered, and a lot do. I found long ago I didn't care much for this type of prayer. It's too much drama, being so up when I get what I want, then down when I don't. I'd rather just distance myself from the process and trust that I'm going to get what I need at some point.

Praying, for me, it's is like communion with God; the best bits are unanswered prayers where I just feel a sense of peace that transcends whatever need may be pressing. I wouldn't be able to not pray for a year, but the type of prayer you're challenging people to go on a sabbatical from isn't how I pray anyway.

Well let me ask you this then...if you think prayer affects your life in some way (in any way really) do you think not praying would change your life in some way? Do you think that not praying would have a result?

Maybe now you see where I'm going with this? If you answer, "no...my life wouldn't change at all." then it seems like you think prayer really has no effect on your life. If you answer, "yes...my life would change in some way, even if I'm not entirely sure in which ways it will change." then why not stop praying and find out for sure? See if you know. You can always go back to praying...can't you?

The part about not going to church is really just to avoid praying. I would imagine it would be rather difficult and awkward to be going to church but not praying. Of course, if you believe church has some measurable or noticeable effect on your life (I'm not just speaking about a sense of community here either...what I mean is some "supernatural" effect) then I would encourage you to see if that effect remains, disappears, or changes in some way as well.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I agree with znr, the two challenges are different - "Do X, because I believe God will move you in mysterious ways" vs. "Stop doing X, because it's the opposite of the other challenge". The first one had a specious logic to it, this one... doesn't.

Go ahead and read my response to znr...maybe that will clarify the OP for you. I didn't mean for this to be "the opposite" of the other thread, I only mentioned it because it was the inspiration for the OP.

When you think about it, they aren't even remotely similar. The other thread was hoping to get people to change their beliefs...which, frankly, is a bit ridiculous of an expectation of church. I want believers to try a little experiment to examine whether or not something they believe in is true. I doubt I could count all the believers here on CF who genuinely think that prayer has some noticeable effect on their life...but how many are willing to find out if it really has an effect or not?
 
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grasping the after wind

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Would you agree to ignore and cut off all communication with someone you have an extremely close and loving relationship with for a year just as an experiment for the amusement of a stranger on the internet? I guess, No I would not.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Would you agree to ignore and cut off all communication with someone you have an extremely close and loving relationship with for a year just as an experiment for the amusement of a stranger on the internet? I guess, No I would not.

That's not really the same.
 
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juvenissun

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Go one year without attending church or praying. I'll explain...


So what do you think? Any takers?

I have done that. I stopped to attend church worship for about 3 years. It only made me desperately want to go back to it.

It does not work.
 
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Albion

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When you think about it, they aren't even remotely similar. The other thread was hoping to get people to change their beliefs...which, frankly, is a bit ridiculous of an expectation of church. I want believers to try a little experiment to examine whether or not something they believe in is true.

The "problem" is, I think, that it wouldn't test if something is true so much as it would test how well you could do without something that churchgoers consider close to essential. They do not see "church" as just an emblem, like hanging a crucifix on one's wall or wearing green on St. Patrick's Day. An atheist who attends church against his preference is just annoyed by it. While it might possible change something in the way he thinks, he's not compromising his belief system by being there...but the churchgoer who cannot attend worship services is.
 
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brightlights

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So what do you think? Any takers?

This would be a terribly detrimental thing for a believer to do. We call church involvement, prayer, bible reading, etc "means of grace". God's presence with us is easy to forget or close our "spiritual eyes" to because it's not physically sensible. The church, prayer, scripture, and sacrament are the ways that believers get a sense of God's actual presence. They maintain and sustain faith. If we were to dispense of them then our faith would shrivel up and die.
 
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juvenissun

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You stopped praying too?

Yes, I stopped the format of praying.
I did not really care about that.

Your point is not valid. If a Christian turned into a non-Christian due to the lack of religious formalities, then the person is probable never a Christian. Human's recognition does not change so easily. There are many people who were not Christians for tens of years and become Christian suddenly or gradually.

A true Christian never go backward regardless the living environment. I could live in Lhaza many years. But I will go right back to a church when I left there.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You obviously don't know Christian struggle, and that isn't an insult. Perhaps you do.

I haven't been to church since I was eight. I abhor hypocrisy - not that the entire church is hypocritical, but that the ones I have been to have been less than transparent in spirit. That is just my personal experience.

I have doubts, and have had doubts. I am a scientist, and was a scientist before I became Christian. Sometimes I don't consider myself Christian even because of circumstances. There is very little difference between the atheist and believer - I think that gets ignored. Even God Himself said that being an acolyte to law does not fulfill His will. There is a lot that goes into believing. I have to give up my supposed "knowledge" and trust Him on everything. That is hard - especially for a physicist. And, yet it was physics that solidified my knowledge in Him. I cheated, because I know He exists.

Now, believing Him is a completely different thing. How wretched is it to know, and have doubts of belief? It reminds me of The Matrix:



Christians have very difficult trials in trusting God, believing that everything is according to His will, for a greater purpose. After all, humans usually believe they are the gods of their own lives. Am I ready to submit my "godhood" for a Greater God - trusting Him to rule my life? Logically, that is ludicrous. I am a god! Why would I submit myself? Does Poseidon submit himself to Hades? Does Parameshwara submit himself to Narayana?

As far as prayer goes, supposedly it is just conversation - not a request list. In the same way parents want their children to call them not because they need something, but just to talk, God wants us to just talk to Him. Sure, He may grant prayer requests, but He would rather us talk to Him for "no reason." So, prayers aren't about working so much as they are about communication. What do they say: relationships are founded and held by communication.

To me, religious people aren't close minded at all. It takes a lot of submission of logic and reason to believe in something you have never seen, breathed, experienced, and heard. People die for it. Perhaps zealotry is a better word, but close-minded is not. I have personally had my angry moments with God - still do. I have gone a significant time without giving credence to Him. Guess what? I come back around full circle. Why I do not know. But, when I am foolish I can feel that in the end I will be 1) reproofed, 2) comforted if I allow it, 3) substantiated in the Word, 4) moved in a Godly direction.

Faith, belief and trust are some very, very strong alignments. Many Christians have gone more than a year without God, only to come back to Him. It isn't trite a relationship with God. Leaving Him when you have accepted Him previously punches a huge hole in your heart and mind.

Perhaps I should've been more specific then in the OP. I meant prayer as a request/wish/hope. I had to look up the word to see that it could also just mean casual conversation. I don't want any believer to stop this....just stop requesting things of god. You can even still attend church if you can avoid doing this (which I imagine would-be very very hard). Surely this isn't too much to ask? End your wish lists to god for a year?
 
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