The True Meaning of Romans 9-11

eclipsenow said:

DESTROYED is not fine, as biblically speaking you and I are Israel.

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And what about the Israel over there surrounded by its sworn enemies.. is that make believe Israel?

One of the students here just wrote that the land promise to Israel is forever. That means it will miss the new earth, because there won't be any more distinctions.

As shown before "forever" in hebrew is always in relation to the audience and what could matter to them. It is not an infinite eternity.

Old Timer said:

And what about the Israel over there surrounded by its sworn enemies.. is that make believe Israel?

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That's a secular state. It's about as important, biblically speaking, as Libya, or NSW. (Comparable sizes).

But we are Israel now. That's why Jesus chose 12 apostles, Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is near, why Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to make us witnesses in Jerusalem & Judea & Samaria and the ends of the earth (which we basically see unfold in Acts), etc. We're the kingdom of God: both Jew and Gentile converted in Christ.

There is no 'Israel' other than us theologically speaking. To suggest so is to destroy the gospel and raise questions about 'other ways' to God.

eclipsenow said:

That's a secular state. It's about as important, biblically speaking, as Libya, or NSW. (Comparable sizes).

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Oh.. so we're Israel and the Israel over there in the midst of its enemies doesn't mean squat.. OK..

But we are Israel now. That's why Jesus chose 12 apostles, Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is near, why Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to make us witnesses in Jerusalem & Judea & Samaria and the ends of the earth (which we basically see unfold in Acts), etc. We're the kingdom of God: both Jew and Gentile converted in Christ.

There is no 'Israel' other than us theologically speaking. To suggest so is to destroy the gospel and raise questions about 'other ways' to God.

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Oh so what was Paul speaking of here lest we become wise in our own conceits..?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

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How can we be Israel and be blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES come in?

Why did the LORD say that JERUSALEM shall be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the GENTILES be fulfilled?

When is that?

Interplanner said:

One of the students here just wrote that the land promise to Israel is forever. That means it will miss the new earth, because there won't be any more distinctions.

As shown before "forever" in hebrew is always in relation to the audience and what could matter to them. It is not an infinite eternity.

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I just read that Solomon was promised his throne forever. I kings 9, i think. That promise didn't last very long or ekse had spiritual fulfillment.

Some interesting stuff connecting mt of olives (zech 14 & Ez 1111:23) with 1 kings 11:7 & 2 kings 23 13!!!

Rom 9-11 has a prior foundation in whats being taught in Rom 2. The qay of the law is replaced/fulfilled by righteousness unto God through faith in his son. The law never could bring righteousness and truth, either mosaic law or garden law. But now a righteousness apart from the kaw is manifest through (the law of) faith that is in/through Christ Jesus.

Since he's making this proclamation, he now reinforces it in rom 9-11 with an apologetic and defense saying; I'm not lying.... (they are iutside of righteousness with God) ...... and thus is why he himself wishes he were cut off for his bretherens sake.

PAul's referal to the experiences of the patriarchs is to show how they foretyped the faith in the future seed of the woman (gen 3:15; the oracles of God;ch 2 ) which is now fulfilled in Christ.

Notrash said:

I just read that Solomon was promised his throne forever. I kings 9, i think. That promise didn't last very long or ekse had spiritual fulfillment.

Some interesting stuff connecting mt of olives (zech 14 & Ez 1111:23) with 1 kings 11:7 & 2 kings 23 13!!!

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Bump for edit if verse quoted. Its 1 kings 9, not 2 kings 23:13, though that has significance with abominatiin of desolation.

Old Timer said:

Oh.. so we're Israel and the Israel over there in the midst of its enemies doesn't mean squat.. OK..

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I think that's the first time you've actually demonstrated that you understand my replies. Not that you agree, of course, but that you even comprehend it!

Oh so what was Paul speaking of here lest we become wise in our own conceits..?

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sorry, I'm not sure how this response undoes the whole sweep of Biblical Theology?

How can we be Israel and be blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES come in?

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Because Paul switches from using 'Israel' to speak of ethnic Jews and us as Gentiles and then says "ALL ISRAEL" to mean both Jew and Gentile. As he says elsewhere, there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free... etc.

Why did the LORD say that JERUSALEM shall be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the GENTILES be fulfilled?

When is that?

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Because that's the rather poetic way they speak of the outward sweep of the gospel.

On a more scientific note, have you studied the genetic claims of modern Jews? It's a highly controversial issue, and I don't mean to sound anti-semitic here, but what is a Jew? If you're putting quite significant theological significance onto the modern state of Israel, are you confident that they are even 'Jews': that they really are the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Notrash said:

PAul's referal to the experiences of the patriarchs is to show how they foretyped the faith in the future seed of the woman (gen 3:15; the oracles of God;ch 2 ) which is now fulfilled in Christ.

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Well said!

eclipsenow said:

I think that's the first time you've actually demonstrated that you understand my replies. Not that you agree, of course, but that you even comprehend it!

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It's not like it's complicated or anything like that.

sorry, I'm not sure how this response undoes the whole sweep of Biblical Theology?

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It doesn't.. it undoes the false notion and deception that the church is Israel. Ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel results in one certainty.. becoming wise in your own conceits.

Because Paul switches from using 'Israel' to speak of ethnic Jews and us as Gentiles and then says "ALL ISRAEL" to mean both Jew and Gentile. As he says elsewhere, there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free... etc.

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Strange, you just quoted how there's neither JEW or Greek, and yet we're all JEWS according to you?

Because that's the rather poetic way they speak of the outward sweep of the gospel.

On a more scientific note, have you studied the genetic claims of modern Jews? It's a highly controversial issue, and I don't mean to sound anti-semitic here, but what is a Jew? If you're putting quite significant theological significance onto the modern state of Israel, are you confident that they are even 'Jews': that they really are the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

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To not believe the vast OT prophecy concerning Israel is one thing.. to doubt that that God's word speaks the truth today is another matter entirely..

The LORD Himsef says that when He comes in His glory and then sits upon the throne of His glory.. that His Apostles (all Jewish) shall sit upon thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

Do you believe that or question its simple truth because you doubt if there are Israelites today... even though you consider yourself to be one..

OT,
the last item is very simply resolved. The "thrones" were the places of leadership in the church. That's why persecution was part of the package. Look more closely.

Obviously the two Israels Paul spoke of means there are two kinds of Jews. That has its basis in Rom 2 and elsewhere.

Interplanner said:

OT,
the last item is very simply resolved. The "thrones" were the places of leadership in the church. That's why persecution was part of the package. Look more closely.

Obviously the two Israels Paul spoke of means there are two kinds of Jews. That has its basis in Rom 2 and elsewhere.

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No, you look more closely. The thrones are undeniably connected to the coming of Christ.. now if you'd like to pretend that Christ has already come then go right ahead.. nobody is going to take you seriously anyway.

Old Timer said:

No, you look more closely. The thrones are undeniably connected to the coming of Christ.. now if you'd like to pretend that Christ has already come then go right ahead.. nobody is going to take you seriously anyway.

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Take a step back a bit: why did Jesus choose 12 disciples in the first place?

eclipsenow said:

Take a step back a bit: why did Jesus choose 12 disciples in the first place?

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Maybe because there are twelve sons of Jacob... the twelve tribes of Israel..

Just a wild guess..

Regardless.. it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that Christ has come again.. it's ridiculous at best to think that THIS is the regeneration.. when the Son of man shall sit upon the throne of His glory with His apostles also sitting upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. go there if you must.. but don't expect to be taken seriously.. as if that matters anyway right..

Old Timer said:

Maybe because there are twelve sons of Jacob... the twelve tribes of Israel..

Just a wild guess..

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Therefore, we are to see Jesus as setting up the new kingdom of God. Doesn't that follow?

Regardless.. it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that Christ has come again.. it's ridiculous at best to think that THIS is the regeneration.. when the Son of man shall sit upon the throne of His glory with His apostles also sitting upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. go there if you must.. but don't expect to be taken seriously.. as if that matters anyway right..

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You're boring me with your strawman attacks. I'll respond to relevant points only.

eclipsenow said:

Therefore, we are to see Jesus as setting up the new kingdom of God. Doesn't that follow?

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How does that follow? The LORD said that His kingdom is not of this world...

Read Luke 22 where the LORD plainly says that He shall not eat of the Passover again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.. He then ties this to His Apostles sitting upon thrones and ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel.. when HE COMES...

You're boring me with your strawman attacks. I'll respond to relevant points only.

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Call it what you will.. although I agree it's pretty sad that talking about the future has to be pointed out so often in an eschatology forum.

Old Timer said:

How does that follow? The LORD said that His kingdom is not of this world...

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That's right: we're only the 'kingdom of God' as far as we reflect the eventual reality of God's complete rule in heaven. That's what it means to be in eschatological tension.

Read Luke 22 where the LORD plainly says that He shall not eat of the Passover again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.. He then ties this to His Apostles sitting upon thrones and ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel.. when HE COMES...

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INDEED, JESUS NOT ONLY BRINGS THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL, HE *IS* ISRAEL!

This next verse is a great example of how the New Testament sometimes makes a profound theological point by allegorising an Old Testament prophecy.

It's from Matthew 2.
14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

It's a fairly unremarkable prophecy until one looks it up and realises the verse isn't talking about Jesus at all, but about Israel.

It's from Hosea 11
1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

In case you are tempted to say this is all about Jacob (Israel) when he was younger, consider this. The man Jacob was led by God into Egypt to save the line of Jacob from the famine. This usually told from the perspective of his son Joseph. But the point here is that God saved Israel the man by leading him into Egypt; God saved Israel the nation by leading them out of Egypt.

In case there is any doubt the next verse of Hosea speaks of them in the plural.

2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.

Anyway, Jesus lived as the perfect Israel! He lived as the perfect Kingdom of God here on earth: as perfect and sinless as Israel should have been. Jesus not only brings us into the Kingdom of God in his death and resurrection, Jesus lived as the perfect Kingdom of God in this world. He lived the flawless life of a perfect Jew, a perfect 'Son of God' (in this case referring to him as a human being), and ultimately the alternative to Adam and his rebellion. Jesus *was* the Kingdom of God here on earth, *created* the Kingdom of God in the church, and *brings* the Kingdom of God to its final consummation and safety in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Imagine the shape of an hourglass. There's that narrow neck in the middle that all the sand must pass through to get where it's going. Jesus is that neck. After the Kingdom of God is established in Israel, and Israel rebels, there seems to be this winnowing down of the faithful remnant. The Kingdom splits and the ten northern tribes are gone. Then they are exiled. Then Jerusalem is attacked. More of Judah is gone. Then eventually all of it is removed and carried off into exile. The prophets talk about a faithful remnant that continue to live for the Lord, but the number seems to be shrinking daily. Finally we come to Jesus and Simeon announces he has seen the salvation of the Lord! Jesus appoints the 12 disciples representing the new 12 tribes of Israel. Then it comes time for his execution.

The disciples flee.

Jesus, the perfect Israel that God rescued out of Egypt, hangs on a cross alone. After living as the perfect Kingdom of God, he dies for that Kingdom.

And rises again, fulfilling all our eschatological hopes for salvation from sin, redemption as a people of God, and guaranteeing the perfect future Kingdom's final consummation. The Holy Spirit is given to the church and Peter announces it is the last days in his theologically and eschatologically loaded sermon in Acts 2! Three thousand people are added to the church that day, and the hourglass starts to grow out again!

Never forget that Jesus lived as the perfect Israel, as this is a profoundly important theological key to understanding End Times theology!

Right, Jesus is Israel.. That's why Paul writes that Israel is blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in..

So according to you, Jesus is blinded in part..

Makes sense..