Teen suspended after refusing to stand for Pledge of Allegiance

TheDag

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You actually see the "loss of freedom of speech" in being asked to wait an hour, and maybe move to a location better equiped for contrversial debating, so you don't disturb the rest of the group, and the distubing of the rest of the group to attempt to force a "performance" and a declaration in opposition to one's beliefs, along with the loss of freedom to speak freely, as morally and legally equivalent? Really?

(Godwin Alert!) I suppose you see no moral or legal difference between the Gestapo breaking down a door to carry away a Jewish family and a police officer politely asking a witness to a robbery for information about the perpetrator. (End Godwin Alert)
If your incapable of following the conversation you shouldn't respond. The poster I responded to said you should never be pressured to ignore your freedoms. The situation I described is one where expectation is that you would not exercise your freedom of speech right. So it is comparable.
 
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OllieFranz

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If your incapable of following the conversation you shouldn't respond. The poster I responded to said you should never be pressured to ignore your freedoms. The situation I described is one where expectation is that you would not exercise your freedom of speech right. So it is comparable.

I'm sorry, but the situation that you described is not one where you cannot exercise free speech, but simply one of good manners. I understood the point you thought you were making, but the point you were actually making was totally different. The whole point of the Godwin comparison was to point out the inappropriateness of. your comparison. If you thought, if you still think, that the two situations are equally covered by (carry the same moral weight in terms of) the other poster's statement, then so would be the Nazi statement.
 
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TheDag

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I'm sorry, but the situation that you described is not one where you cannot exercise free speech, but simply one of good manners. I understood the point you thought you were making, but the point you were actually making was totally different. The whole point of the Godwin comparison was to point out the inappropriateness of. your comparison. If you thought, if you still think, that the two situations are equally covered by (carry the same moral weight in terms of) the other poster's statement, then so would be the Nazi statement.
so good manners pressure you to to keep quiet and the person I was responding to said you should never feel pressured to keep quiet. I never said it was a situation where you can't exercise free speech so perhaps you should take more care to read properly. The person I was responding to said there was no situation where you should feel pressured to not exercise freedom of speech. I am arguing that just because you have the right does not mean you should exercise it. You know just like you said.
 
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OllieFranz

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so good manners pressure you to to keep quiet and the person I was responding to said you should never feel pressured to keep quiet. I never said it was a situation where you can't exercise free speech so perhaps you should take more care to read properly. The person I was responding to said there was no situation where you should feel pressured to not exercise freedom of speech. I am arguing that just because you have the right does not mean you should exercise it. You know just like you said.

Re-read that post of yours that I first responded to. You may have intended for it to be read as sarcastically but good naturedly pointing out the previos poster's statement was perhaps broader than he intended, but that is not how it came across. It came out in favor of no restraint, no self-control, take no prisoners
 
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ananda

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The republic for which the flag stands isn't the republic that it used to stand for. I used to put my hand over my heart and say the pledge happily. I don't say it anymore....
Neither do I.

The "Pledge", with words read from a legal standpoint, is a legal, binding pledge, not to mention being horrendously socialist (like its author), idolatrous, and repugnant to the ideals of the Republic. It should be deeply offensive to all Christians, IMO.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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Sit or stand, just don't be disruptive. The school has a duty to violate and punish. Our schools are way too liberal. Every child should have the fear of God placed into them by their teachers to recite the WHOLE Pledge of Allegiance.

Are you saying our kids should be forced to worship a flag? If so your forcing some kids to go against their religious belief. Also lets not forget other kids rights, that aren't religious .
 
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poolerboy0077

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Help me understand your fixation with giving respect to abstractions. I can understand respecting people, but respecting nations? And how are people respecting nations if such recitations are compulsory? All you're left with is a group of children coerced under threat of punishment to regurgitate lines that they don't necessarily agree with, isn't coming from the heart and probably don't even understand (which is why some very young kids will say things like "invisible" rather than "indivisible" or "for Richard Stans" rather than "for which it stands").

What does it mean to pledge your allegiance to a flag and why is that important? Shouldn't you pledge your allegiance to important values like upholding justice or civic duties that promote societal flourishing? And what use is mouthing it off every morning? Do I have to look at a picture of my mother and tell it I love her lest I forget that I'm supposed to love and care for her? This is all hocus pocus nonsense.
Still waiting for a response.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The school should lose this fight. There is no law that makes it compulsory to stand for the pledge of allegiance.
More and more, articles like this and those where teachers seize a child's Bible because they're reading it on their own time, it appears teachers and school officials need an education in matters such as these.

Think of the money they'd save. ;)

If the case where the kid has his bible taken by the teacher...he wasn't reading it on his own time. He was reading it instead of his assignment. Just fyi.
 
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Rubiks

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Would you be okay if a school with muslim teachers forced kid sto say it to Allah?

But that is religious in nature, while merely citing the pledge of allegiance is not. Unless you want to say reciting the pledge is unconstitutional?

Still, I agree none should have to recite any pledge.
 
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The point of standing for the pledge is respect. If one can show respect without standing then that is OK. I am in a wheelchair ( can walk but not over long periods.) I USED to stand up for the pledge, but do not anymore because by the time I get up it is either time to sit back down OR if we are standing for more than one thing I may not be able to stand that long.

I STILL respect this country and the people who died or fought to give me that right. If someone wants to force me to stand up repeatedly I WILL assert my rights ( legally if I must).
 
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TerranceL

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This is what happens when you hire Social Studies teachers primarily for their ability to coach sportsball.

Got a massive giggle out of this.

When I was in the 7th grade my American History teacher was also a baseball coach.

Most memorable part of the year was the two weeks it took to watch "Roots" and hearing him talk about some invention just made and sold for oil rigs that made him a millionaire and how this was his last year of teaching.
 
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TerranceL

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Maybe because there's no consequences to the teachers or administrators for "forgetting".

This reminds me of the continuing cases of people being arrested and prosecuted for photographing or filming public police activities. The police and prosecutors always, always, always lose those cases, yet they persist.

Of course! Heck it's not their money.

I like the suggestion of a civil lawsuit against the teacher.
 
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bhsmte

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Teen suspended after refusing to stand for Pledge of Allegiance | Fox News


His protest.


teachers demands.

Unless there is something not in this story, the school will lose this fight.
He is making a "silent" protest. It is not disrupting the classroom. Until the school made a federal case out of it, no one had a problem.

The Pledge of alleigence,
What good is a pledge that is mandated? It is meaningless unless spoken freely. Nothing done by threats and coercion is valid. The big brother stepping on the little guy.

I stand for the Red, white and Blue of the past. I do not support the path our country is on. It will take revolutionaries to change the path. But we must ensure everyone's rights are protected. Those we agree with, those we disagree with.

:hahaha: "You have freedom, %$@# it. Now stand up and do what government tells you to do!"

Love that, you have freedom and respect, so do what the government says even if you don't want to.

I'm surprised there are still schools using the pledge of alleigence and yes, the school will lose this battle.
 
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poolerboy0077

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The point of standing for the pledge is respect.
It's an arbitrary and artificial form of respect. Someone simply invented the ritual of standing up and reciting a pledge while doing a hand gesture. It's just an artificial human custom. It reminds me of the invented custom from my old karate studio that told us never to drop or wash our belts out of respect. Or how the Muslims find it incredibly disrespectful of a woman to not cover her head. Should non-Muslim women be coerced or simply socially pressured to appease others' abstract beliefs by conforming to their rituals? Not if we live in a free society.

That said, respect has little to no relevance on the subject of free speech. I mean, just look at the 2011 case that the Westboro Baptist Church won if you're skeptical on this point. The point of even having a free speech provision in the Constitution is to protect that speech (and omission) which others find objectionable.
 
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