German exchange student killed

Panzerkamfwagen

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No one said they're not allowed to. The point is that IF you CHOOSE to leave your garage door open, it shouldn't be a total surprise when occasionally someone walks into it.

Which doesn't make it any less burglary.

If you DON'T WANT random strangers walking into it, the simple solution is to keep it locked up. Which also removes a significant amount of ambiguity if you DO then find someone in it.

That ambiguity depends on where you are.

If you find someone in your garage in the dark of night, there isn't much ambiguity. Why would anyone be wandering into a stranger's garage in the middle of the night?
 
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Hetta

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If you find someone in your garage in the dark of night, there isn't much ambiguity. Why would anyone be wandering into a stranger's garage in the middle of the night?
They could be drunk.
Lost.
Confused.
The victim of an attack and hiding from the attacker.
Suffering some kind of illness, such as dementia.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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They could be drunk.
Lost.
Confused.
The victim of an attack and hiding from the attacker.
Suffering some kind of illness, such as dementia.

Intoxication is not an excuse.

There was a case in Washington State recently, where a drunk guy tried to force his way into the wrong house. No charges were filed.

Why did you omit "seeking to engage in illegal activity?"
 
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Armoured

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Which doesn't make it any less burglary.
Again, I question your definition of burglary, but even if that's what it was, it's hardly a capital offense.

That ambiguity depends on where you are.

If you find someone in your garage in the dark of night, there isn't much ambiguity. Why would anyone be wandering into a stranger's garage in the middle of the night?
I don't know. Which is why I'd ask before shooting.
 
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TheOtherHockeyMom

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Which doesn't make it any less burglary.



That ambiguity depends on where you are.

If you find someone in your garage in the dark of night, there isn't much ambiguity. Why would anyone be wandering into a stranger's garage in the middle of the night?

Neither of the shooters took the time to first even establish if the target was a stranger.
 
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OllieFranz

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If I leave my door open and a pile of gold bullion sitting on the floor, in plain sight, if someone steps over the threshold, that's still burglary.

The bottom line is to not enter strange garages at odd hours.

If a woman walks around in revealing clothing, is she responsible for someone else raping her?

At worst, this guy is doing what's called "hunting over bait," but, you can't hunt over bait unless there is some inclination on the part of someone to take the bait.

If a woman dresses like a hooker, hangs out on the corner, solicts a fellow into her crib and shoots him is she responsible for him being dead in her apartment?

A pile of gold bullion looks like a trap, a purse looks like it might have been dropped accidently. If you saw it, would you just leave it there to be purloined? Not everyone would.

One does not "hunt over bait" as you call it if one is not hunting. They knew that someone would take the bait, one way or the other, and they didn't care who or why. They just wanted to bag a body. They admitted it! And the lawyer lied about the law they are relying on for defense. The whole thing is sleazy.
 
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OllieFranz

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No one said they're not allowed to. The point is that IF you CHOOSE to leave your garage door open, it shouldn't be a total surprise when occasionally someone walks into it.

If you DON'T WANT random strangers walking into it, the simple solution is to keep it locked up. Which also removes a significant amount of ambiguity if you DO then find someone in it.

But they did want random strangers wandering into the garage. They admitted it was a ste-up.
 
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OllieFranz

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Intoxication is not an excuse.

There was a case in Washington State recently, where a drunk guy tried to force his way into the wrong house. No charges were filed.

Why did you omit "seeking to engage in illegal activity?"

Or what about seeking to safeguard the purse by moving out of direct view?
 
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Vylo

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But he admitted that he set and baited a trap specifically to shoot someone. The open garage door and the open purse were deliberate.

Baiting a criminal isn't illegal. But, you can't claim self defense initially. You can't say "I was afraid so I just turned the corner and shot him". You wouldn't bait someone if you weren't putting yourself in some danger and you have the advantage. They saw the guy on a video monitor, so they could see if he had a weapon out. No weapon out means you can put the gun on him and detain him. If he moves for a weapon, drop him.

If they saw him trying to steal something, they may have a defense within castle doctrine. Otherwise it is murder. Sorry, but with no idea why the person is there, and clear advantage over them, it is quite reasonable for you to detain the person and ask them why they are there instead of blindly shooting into a garage (I really hope the door didn't face the street, making it possible for him to have hit bystanders).


I hadn't heard that. I heard there was a baby monitor and a motion sensor alarm.

From the article:

The night of the shooting, Kaarma and Pflager heard the sensors trip and saw a figure in the garage on the video monitor,

Why? Even if I leave my front door wide open, if someone walks into my house, it's still burglary.

That's not burglary that's trespassing.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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It appears that he entered the garage without legal authority to do so, which makes him a burglar.

I think, unless he took some property, that would make him a trespasser.
eta - just entering, without intent is apparently trespass.
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/6/45-6-203.htm
Burglary requires intent to commit offense.
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/6/45-6-204.htm

Why does no one want to address the fact that the garage was specifically set up as a deer blind, specifically to entice and kill a person for sport?
How exactly would a deer blind entice a person to enter the garage? :mmh:

Here GJL, let me help.
the garage was specifically set up as a deer blind
Simile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"A simile is a rhetorical figure expressing comparison or likeness that directly compares two objects through some connective word such as like, as, so, than, or a verb such as resembles."​
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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At worst, this guy is doing what's called "hunting over bait," but, you can't hunt over bait unless there is some inclination on the part of someone to take the bait.

If law enforcement did the same thing, they'd be accused of entrapment.
 
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Vylo

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If law enforcement did the same thing, they'd be accused of entrapment.

You have to encourage someone to do something they wouldn't normally.

Law enforcement bait people all the time, they made a TV show about it (Bait Car). The line for entrapment would be something like a cop trying to push a recovering drug addict to take drugs and then busting them.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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I think, unless he took some property, that would make him a trespasser.
eta - just entering, without intent is apparently trespass.
45-6-203. Criminal trespass to property.
Burglary requires intent to commit offense.
45-6-204. Burglary.


Not quite. All that Montana requires is that a person intends to commit an offense in the structure. I can't find any Montana statutes about the inference of intent, though.

45-6-204. Burglary. (1) A person commits the offense of burglary if the person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in an occupied structure and:
(a) the person has the purpose to commit an offense in the occupied structure; or
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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If law enforcement did the same thing, they'd be accused of entrapment.

No it wouldn't. In order for something to be considered entrapment, law enforcement actually has to pressure someone to commit a crime.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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That's not burglary that's trespassing.

No, actually, it's burglary, here.

But, it depends on where you are.

If I'm reading NJ's statute right, it looks like it's burglary:

2C:18-2. Burglary.

2C:18-2. Burglary. a. Burglary defined. A person is guilty of burglary if, with purpose to commit an offense therein or thereon he:

(1) Enters a research facility, structure, or a separately secured or occupied portion thereof unless the structure was at the time open to the public or the actor is licensed or privileged to enter;
 
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OllieFranz

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All of the definitions of burglary that have been posted require the intent to commit an offense. We don't know what the victim's intent was. It may have bee to steal the purse, or it may have been to move it out of view from the street, so it would not be stolen, or it may have been something else entirely.

We do know what the intent of the shooter was. He and his girlfriend have told us, and even beforehand, according to reports, they told a friend. (Although some posters apparently feel that hairdressers are inherently unreliable as witnesses.) He was planning to kill someone. He didn't care who. He set up his garage so that someone would step over toward the purse.

If we concede that we don't know, and the victim may have been guilty of a crime, will you concede that the killer shot the victm in cold blood, and not in fear of his life? He had the gun at the ready at all times and shot as soon as the victim stepped into the garage. There is no way he was in reasonable fear of harm. That is why his lawyer deliberately left out the word "reasonable" when he quoted the statute.
 
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