German exchange student killed

Armoured said:

Nor assuming that anyone entering their property is a burglar.

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It appears that he entered the garage without legal authority to do so, which makes him a burglar.

The entry also occurred at a rather unusual time of night, which lends credence to the belief that a reasonable property owner would conclude that he is a burglar.

Why does no one want to address the fact that the garage was specifically set up as a deer blind, specifically to entice and kill a person for sport?

OllieFranz said:

Why does no one want to address the fact that the garage was specifically set up as a deer blind, specifically to entice and kill a person for sport?

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How exactly would a deer blind entice a person to enter the garage?

Panzerkampfwagen said:

It appears that he entered the garage without legal authority to do so, which makes him a burglar.

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Your house must be an absolute riot around halloween

The entry also occurred at a rather unusual time of night, which lends credence to the belief that a reasonable property owner would conclude that he is a burglar.

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A conclusion that, again, wouldn't have been needed had the home owner asked who was there or, you know, locked the garage like a normal person.

Armoured said:

Your house must be an absolute riot around halloween

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Except you'd be expecting a lot of kids trying to get candy on Halloween, so I fail to see the argument you are trying to make...

Armoured said:

A conclusion that, again, wouldn't have been needed had the home owner asked who was there or, you know, locked the garage like a normal person.

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He also could have forgotten to close his garage door (which normal people sometimes forget to do).

GarfieldJL said:

He also could have forgotten to close his garage door (which normal people sometimes forget to do).

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Indeed. Normal people do. Normal people also walk into open garages for any number of reasons that don't include burglary.

But again, this whole situation could have been avoided with a simple "halt, who's there?" Heck, have you're gun all primed and ready to shoot before you issue the challenge, if you're that paranoid. I really can't see any justification for this "shoot first, question later" attitude.

Further, as has already been commented a number of times now... even if the kid WAS there intending to steal anything, that's hardly an offence worthy of summary execution, is it?

TheOtherHockeyMom said:

Both shot first without verifying identity. The actions and motives were the same, only the outcomes were different. Oscar Pistorous did the same thing too.

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I have my doubts that Pistorous made a mistake.

Hetta said:

I have my doubts that Pistorous made a mistake.

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I agree with you there.

GarfieldJL said:

He also could have forgotten to close his garage door (which normal people sometimes forget to do).

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But he admitted that he set and baited a trap specifically to shoot someone. The open garage door and the open purse were deliberate.

kermit said:

Do you know what else is good manners? Asking what someone is doing. This kid is dead because this guy took a "shoot first, ask questions later attitude".

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! I know that people have shot family members because they didn't bother to look before shooting. I live in Montana, and they have arrested a couple of people who they believe were committing the burglaries in that neighborhood. From what a fellow exchange student who was with the one who was killed, they may have been looking for a beer. Is it really worth killing someone because they want to steal a beer? Personally, if they wanted the beer, I would let them have it. I have enough to answer to God for--I don't need to add killing another human being to that list. From what I've been reading, there may be some serious consideration about changing the "castle doctrine" law in the State of Montana.

GarfieldJL said:

How exactly would a deer blind entice a person to enter the garage?

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It was baited with the open door and the open purse.

Armoured said:

Your house must be an absolute riot around halloween

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Trick or treaters don't really like it when you tell them to rub the lotion on their skin.
</sarc>

A conclusion that, again, wouldn't have been needed had the home owner asked who was there or, you know, locked the garage like a normal person.

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Why? Even if I leave my front door wide open, if someone walks into my house, it's still burglary. Why do you want to impose a legal duty on people to stop others from breaking the law?

Do you tell women to avoid particular neighborhoods, or to not wear particular clothes, too?

OllieFranz said:

It was baited with the open door and the open purse.

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If I leave my door open and a pile of gold bullion sitting on the floor, in plain sight, if someone steps over the threshold, that's still burglary.

The bottom line is to not enter strange garages at odd hours.

If a woman walks around in revealing clothing, is she responsible for someone else raping her?

At worst, this guy is doing what's called "hunting over bait," but, you can't hunt over bait unless there is some inclination on the part of someone to take the bait.

Armoured said:

Your house must be an absolute riot around halloweenA conclusion that, again, wouldn't have been needed had the home owner asked who was there or, you know, locked the garage like a normal person.

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Very sensible question. If the incident happened in the middle of the night, why was the garage door opened. In my house, the garage door was never left opened at night!

katherine2001 said:

Very sensible question. If the incident happened in the middle of the night, why was the garage door opened. In my house, the garage door was never left opened at night!

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Are people not allowed to leave their garage doors open at night, now?

Panzerkampfwagen said:

Trick or treaters don't really like it when you tell them to rub the lotion on their skin.
</sarc>

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Why? Even if I leave my front door wide open, if someone walks into my house, it's still burglary. Why do you want to impose a legal duty on people to stop others from breaking the law?

Do you tell women to avoid particular neighborhoods, or to not wear particular clothes, too?

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I was actually involved in a thread on this very subject just recently. When a criminal makes a conscious decision to commit a crime, that is 100% his or her choice. However, the person who needlessly facilitates the crime by, say, leaving the door unlocked, also contributes to it. It's not a zero sum game. So yes, I would indeed advise women (and men) to avoid particular neighborhoods.

That said, a. I don't think walking into an open garage in and of itself constitutes burglary, b. even if, for the sake of argument, we accept that the kid was there with malice aforthought, with the intention to commit a crime like theft or trespass, most people wouldn't say that warrants summary execution. Again, what's wrong with, "halt, who's there?"

Panzerkampfwagen said:

At worst, this guy is doing what's called "hunting over bait," but, you can't hunt over bait unless there is some inclination on the part of someone to take the bait.

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You can't commit pre-meditated murder and get away with it. As Byron Smith is finding out.

Panzerkampfwagen said:

Are people not allowed to leave their garage doors open at night, now?

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Why would anyone do that? You risk your garage not only to human but also to wild creatures who can make a much bigger mess.

Panzerkampfwagen said:

Are people not allowed to leave their garage doors open at night, now?

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No one said they're not allowed to. The point is that IF you CHOOSE to leave your garage door open, it shouldn't be a total surprise when occasionally someone walks into it.

If you DON'T WANT random strangers walking into it, the simple solution is to keep it locked up. Which also removes a significant amount of ambiguity if you DO then find someone in it.

Panzerkampfwagen said:

Trick or treaters don't really like it when you tell them to rub the lotion on their skin.
</sarc>




Why? Even if I leave my front door wide open, if someone walks into my house, it's still burglary. Why do you want to impose a legal duty on people to stop others from breaking the law?

Do you tell women to avoid particular neighborhoods, or to not wear particular clothes, too?

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So I committed a crime when I accidentally walked into the wrong home?