Federal Judge Denies Idaho Governor's Motion To Put Gay Marriages On Hold

OllieFranz said:

I'm aware of that. But the law makes the distinction between the business and the owner, The business does not automatically inherit the owner's civil rights.

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So you're suggesting people have to give up their religious freedoms in order to own a business?

OllieFranz said:

Nice try.

The cake is delivered to the banquet hall while the participants are at the church (or wherever). He usually has to get right back to the shop. The banquet hall manager or the caterer takes over responsibility for the cake.

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That counts as participation Ollie...

OllieFranz said:

Really? If you wanted a cake to celebrate your daughter's baptism, and your favorite baker was Jewish and refused to sell you a cake, you'd be OK with that? Or if you were a baker you'd refuse to bake a cake for a neighbor's Bar Mitzvah?

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You do realize that Baptisms isn't something that is limited to Christianity right?

In any event as long as the guy wasn't a complete jerk about it, I would honor his faith.

As far as Bar Mitzvah is concerned, I wouldn't have any objection to baking a cake in the first place...

GarfieldJL said:

Considering these were small bakeries, wouldn't they have had to deliver the cakes to said weddings, and thus would therefore have been participants in said wedding.

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How is handing a cake over to a caterer participating in anything?

You'd have a good argument if we were talking about a large-scale bakery, but we're talking about small bakeries that are run by a husband and wife.

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In hiring employees, small mom-and-pop operations get a pass on anti-discrimination, because they mostly hire family. In dealing with the public they don't have that excuse

Isn't 7/11 a franchise? In order to run a 7/11 you have to agree to certain corporate policies, which is entirely different from a mom & pop shop.

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But they, too, have to adhere to certain policies called laws

Besides, would your answer have been different if it were an independent bodega instead of a 7/11?

OllieFranz said:

How is handing a cake over to a caterer participating in anything?

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They are on-site. If they were objecting to delivering generic cookiees to the wedding, I think you'd have a good argument, but wedding cakes are designed to convey a message.

OllieFranz said:

In hiring employees, small mom-and-pop operations get a pass on anti-discrimination, because they mostly hire family. In dealing with the public they don't have that excuse

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So in other words you're saying that they have to give up their religious beliefs or give up their business?

OllieFranz said:

But they, too, have to adhere to certain policies called laws

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They are also a secular company that is publicly traded...

OllieFranz said:

Besides, would your answer have been different if it were an independent bodega instead of a 7/11?

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If that were the case, I'd be wondering why you'd be selling condoms in the first place.

GarfieldJL said:

So..

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Garfield every time you begin a sentence that beings with the word "so" I can guarantee that it's a straw-man.

GarfieldJL said:

So you're suggesting people have to give up their religious freedoms in order to own a business?

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I'm suggesting that they know what the law requires. They need the proper licenses and permits. And if the law requires that a business not discriminate, and also allows the employees (including owner-employees) to opt out of certain things due to religious considerations, then the business must still arrange to meet all its obligations, even if it means contracting out.

That counts as participation Ollie..

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.

Then where are all the birthday presents my family and I never received from he bakery?

You do realize that Baptisms isn't something that is limited to Christianity right?

In any event as long as the guy wasn't a complete jerk about it, I would honor his faith.

As far as Bar Mitzvah is concerned, I wouldn't have any objection to baking a cake in the first place...

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So, your religion only counts when gays are involved? That's "special pleading."

(And I never claimed that only Christians do Baptism, but when Christians do do it it is a religious event.)

OllieFranz said:

So, your religion only counts when gays are involved? That's "special pleading."

(And I never claimed that only Christians do Baptism, but when Christians do do it it is a religious event.)

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Last I checked, there is nothing in the Bible condemning Bar Mitzvah celebrations...

GarfieldJL said:

They are on-site. If they were objecting to delivering generic cookiees to the wedding, I think you'd have a good argument, but wedding cakes are designed to convey a message.

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So are birthday cakes, graduation cakes Bar Mitzvah cakes, Ordination cakes, Anniversary cakes.... Even more presents the bakery owes us

So in other words you're saying that they have to give up their religious beliefs or give up their business?

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No, I'm saying the business, if it is a public business and not one that only services a single religious community, does not have religious beliefs.

They are also a secular company that is publicly traded...

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No, that statement was in reference to your mom-and-pop bakery. It, too, has to obey the laws.

If that were the case, I'd be wondering why you'd be selling condoms in the first place.

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To kids for water balloons?

OK, the analogy is not perfect, but that is not where the principle that breaks your logic lies. It is in the decision to choose that customer to refuse, and because he is a sinner.

GarfieldJL said:

Last I checked, there is nothing in the Bible condemning Bar Mitzvah celebrations...

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And there is nothing in the bible condemning feasts, marriage feasts or even marriage feasts for certain people.

OllieFranz said:

So are birthday cakes, graduation cakes Bar Mitzvah cakes, Ordination cakes, Anniversary cakes.... Even more presents the bakery owes us

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True, but those aren't messages that are condemned as sin in the Bible...

OllieFranz said:

No, I'm saying the business, if it is a public business and not one that only services a single religious community, does not have religious beliefs.

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Except these bakeries were known to be religious in nature, one could argue that the bakeries in question were targetted because of their religious beliefs.

OllieFranz said:

No, that statement was in reference to your mom-and-pop bakery. It, too, has to obey the laws.

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Again, there is a fine line concerning this issue.

OllieFranz said:

To kids for water balloons?

OK, the analogy is not perfect, but that is not where the principle that breaks your logic lies. It is in the decision to choose that customer to refuse, and because he is a sinner.

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I'm talking about refusing to endorse a sinful event, not choosing to not sell someone a bunch of cookiees because of their sexual orientation...

There is a fine line that divides the civil rights of person A with the civil rights of person B.

How is can a bakery be "religious in nature"??

Armoured said:

How is can a bakery be "religious in nature"??

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The same way Chick-fil-a or Hobby Lobby are religious in nature...

GarfieldJL said:

The same way Chick-fil-a or Hobby Lobby are religious in nature...

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Um... kinda making my point for me there...

Armoured said:

Um... kinda making my point for me there...

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Not really, neither of them make specialty cakes for instance...

GarfieldJL said:

True, but those aren't messages that are condemned as sin in the Bible...

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Neither is a wedding feast

Except these bakeries were known to be religious in nature, one could argue that the bakeries in question were targetted because of their religious beliefs.

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Were they or were they not open to the public? A business only has a religion if its market is exclusively to that religion.

Again, there is a fine line concerning this issue.

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And they crossed it.

I'm talking about refusing to endorse a sinful event, not choosing to not sell someone a bunch of cookiees because of their sexual orientation...

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And so was I in the bodega example. He did not sell the condoms because he did not want to endorse adultery.

There is a fine line that divides the civil rights of person A with the civil rights of person B.

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The baker's rights are not in issue, He can choose not to bake the cake. He can even choose not to deliver the cake. (He is morally wrong in both cases, but his religious freedom allows him to do so. But the bakery shop cannot so discriminate. If it makes wedding cakes and sells them, it cannot refuse to make and sell the cake because the baker does. It has legal obligations.

GarfieldJL said:

The same way Chick-fil-a or Hobby Lobby are religious in nature...

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Do they serve only a specific religious community? No.

They hire employees of all religions and of no religion. They sell to the general public

GarfieldJL said:

Not really, neither of them make specialty cakes for instance...

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I'm sorry, what?

You made a claim about a bakery possibly being specifically "religious in nature", I asked "how can a bakery be religious in nature", you said "The same way Chick-fil-a or Hobby Lobby are religious in nature", and apparently that's because "neither of them make specialty cakes for instance".

I mean, what?

GarfieldJL said:

Homosexual acts are considered sinful according to the Bible, a same-sex wedding is effectively endorsing that activity.

So despite what the Judge said, their religious freedoms were infringed on.

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Sorry, this logic fails me. Since when is a wedding required for sexual activity? A same sex wedding does not endorse anything, it is merely two people who wish to be legally (contractually) bound together -- and possibly bound in the sight (and presumably) the blessing of God.

It seems to me that Jewish and other religious weddings should be far more "offensive" to a Christian baker, after all, those are actual ceremonies involving "false" Gods (not Christ).

GarfieldJL said:

The same way Chick-fil-a or Hobby Lobby are religious in nature...

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So not at all.

Maren said:

Sorry, this logic fails me. Since when is a wedding required for sexual activity? A same sex wedding does not endorse anything, it is merely two people who wish to be legally (contractually) bound together -- and possibly bound in the sight (and presumably) the blessing of God.

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You just undermined your own argument.

Maren said:

It seems to me that Jewish and other religious weddings should be far more "offensive" to a Christian baker, after all, those are actual ceremonies involving "false" Gods (not Christ).

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You really need to brush up on your theological studies: Both Jews and Christians believe in the same God, they just disagree over whether or not Jesus was the "Son of God."

GarfieldJL said:

A marriage is an event, not a person... The bakers only objected to baking a particular cake, now if it had been a refusal to sell them any cake, then you'd have an argument.

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Yes, just like they denied Rosa Parks a particular seat, but not all seats in general. They also denied black children access to just some particular schools, not all schools. Blacks were also denied access to particular bathrooms, and particular drinking fountains, but obviously not all of them. Obviously, if they can just sit in the back of the bus, where is the harm? Right?

And surely the federal judicial system can not strike down state laws that support segregation, right?