The leader of website left Bapism out od the Plan of Salvation!

I voted what was absent. No becase the Bible says No. Romans 10:13 says "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Jesus repeatedly asked people to believe and they were saved. Paul preached that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works (Eph 2:8-9). Salvation results in justification, and Paul says "having been justified by faith." (Romans 5:1) I guess I would ask you to consider those verses regarding your position on baptism.

i agree fully with Athlon4all.

this thread has been moved to a more appropriate forum.

If you are going to add, "I stand with the Bible, yes which says baptism is needed!", as a choice, then you will also have to add, "I stand with the Bible, yes which says baptism is not needed!"

Otherwise, this comes off as a push-poll. Don't believe for a second that those who do not believe baptism is required for salvation, are not heavily steeped in scripture.

online bible debator,

how do you address the fact that all through the bible men and women have been saved without ever getting baptised?

if you want to take this to scripture then so be-it, it is my joy to divide the scriptures and prove the truth of God.

first of all id like to raise the fact that paul said that he had no other will in his life, except that people be saved. that was his mission in life and his one of his greatest desires, he wished even our perfection. he longed for people to be saved, and he commited his entire life and death to his cause.
but he said something astounding, in 1st corinthians 1.17
he said that christ never sent him to baptise, but to preach the gospel.
why?
becuase the power of God, given to save people is one thing, the gospel of christ. by which we hear and have faith unto his message, not water baptism.
the only 2 ritchuals we are told by Jesus to keep are baptism and communion, both of which are only a symbol and picture of what has already taken place in us. communion does not save the soul, but it only pictures what really saved us and what really happened.
going underneath water, and coming back out, never saved a man either, only the work that jesus does in us saves us, and baptism is only a picture of that.
the same as the old covenant had pictures and types of christ, sacrifices and things, none of that saved anyone. only what they represented saves, the real inner work of jesus.

there is no thing we can do with our hands or feet that can save us. not dipping ourselves under water, nor eating bread and grape juice, nor sacrificing an animal for our sins, only believing in jesus christ and making him our lord and saviour in our hearts.
then we are to be baptised, and show what has taken place.

could a sinner go into a pool and go under the water, and come back out, and be saved?
no. and he isnt halfway their either, becuase that physical action does nothing really.
then what really saves the christian who gets baptised?
the work of jesus christ, made effectual by our faith and asking him to come into our lives and save us.

if baptism is dead outside of the work of jesus inside us, then the power that saves us jesus inside us.

the only actions of our body that we must do, to be saved is to withhold our body from sin, but even that is simply to continue in salvation, the salvation has already taken place.
paul who might be called one of the greatest men of God who ever walked on the earth, said he was never sent to baptise, and he didnt even baptise any one at the church of corinth except a few people. 

answer these 2 questions for me.

1. if the gospel can be preached to save men, but the preacher isnt obligated to baptise, what then? why is baptism neccesary for salvation? or isnt this great foolishness if we can preach, but not half to baptise if baptism is needed?

we need baptism, but it isnt needed for salvation.
same as communion is not, the only over sacrament we are to keep.

2. why have their been people throughout all ages that have saved, but never baptised?

*old testament salvations*
people in the old testament were saved and even born again, but no one was ever baptised in the old testament.
ill prove both these facts by galations 4.28,29
(paul is speaking to the galations about trusting in the grace of God and not in works of the law, and he goes back to references from the old testament to prove this is how God worked then and still does now, he primarily uses the story of abraham and his 2 sons, one son of the promise of God, and one son of fleshly works, that was just to give context)

v28
now we brethren, as isaac was, are the children of promise.
v29
BUT AS THEN, he that was born after the flesh, persecuted him that was born after the spirit, even so it is now.

(its making a very clear reference to isaac and his time, he said that even is isaac's day, people who were born after the spirit, were perscuted by he was born after the flesh, this proves that even in the old testament, there was a second birth, a birth of the spirit, a being born again)
this happened like it did for abraham, he wasnt saved by works but by faith, and was counted righteous.
this is a whole new area in theology but anyway, people in the old testament were born again, but never baptised.
baptism is never spoken of in the old testament.

*john the baptist and others were filled with the spirit, before baptism*
john was filled with the spirit without baptism, could anyone be filled with the spirit, without being saved?
john was filled with the spirit from his mothers womb. luke 1.15
elizabeth was filled with the spirit, without baptism luke 1.41
his father zacharias was filled, and prophicied... luke 1.67
simeon had the holyspirit on him and was led by the spirit, luke 2.25-27

*christ forgave sins without baptism*
christ himself never baptised anyone, if this was so needed he would have atleast had a hand in seeing that it was done, but he didnt.
he forgave sins more than once, and we have no reason to believe these people were baptised.

if these things could have happened, which must mean these people were saved, before baptism was ever instituted, then salvation is not by baptism.

*baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh*
1st peter 3.21
baptism does not save us, it is no good in putting away the filth of the flesh or making us born again, but it is only the answer of a good conscience toward God, it is only an answer to God through the goodness that has already been rought in us by salvation.
it is only a like figure of what really saved us. it is clearly said that baptism puts away the filth of no mans flesh.






 

1. if the gospel can be preached to save men, but the preacher isnt obligated to baptise, what then? why is baptism neccesary for salvation? or isnt this great foolishness if we can preach, but not half to baptise if baptism is needed?


we need baptism, but it isnt needed for salvation.
same as communion is not, the only over sacrament we are to keep.

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1 CORINTHIANS 1:12-17
This passage proves beyond doubt that baptism is necessary in order to be saved. It has often been overlooked, however, as a key to proving its necessity.
In verse 13 Paul set down an undeniable truth. He mentions two things that are necessary to belong to Paul, Cephas, Apollos, or Christ. (1) That person must have been crucified for you; (2) you must have been baptized in the name of that person.
Paul said, "Was Paul crucified for you?" In other words, was Paul crucified so you could be forgiven of your sins? Secondly, "Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" "In the name of" in this passage means that a person baptized in someone's name assigns them to that person. Thus, if any were baptized in the name of Paul they were assigned the name of Paul. They would become "of Paul." This is where the proof resides. In order to be assigned to Christ, a person must be baptized "in the name of" Christ. Gal. 3:27 makes it clear that "As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." If a person belongs to Christ, Christ was crucified for him, and he must also have been baptized into Him.
Notice further that Paul was thankful that he didn't baptize many people. The reason was because he feared that some may say they had been baptized in his own name. Again, this overwhelmingly affirms that one must be baptized in the name of Christ to be "of Christ!"
Some will argue that Paul was saying that baptism wasn't important when he said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (V17). This simply is not true. Again, Paul was thankful he did not baptize many because of his fear that some would say they were "of" him.
Paul would have been disregarding Christs' clear command to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them ...." (Mat. 28:19). Paul was either disregarding this explicit instruction given by Jesus, or he must have not meant that baptism was not important. Further, if "Christ sent me not to baptize" means that Paul was forbidden to baptize, then he disobeyed Jesus, because he says that he did baptize Crispus and Gaius.
The word "sent" (Greek, APESTALEV) involves the meaning of "made me an apostle." Jesus made Paul an apostleprimarily to preach. Anyone can baptize, but only a select few had the privilege to be an apostle of Christ.
It would be impossible for Paul to mean that baptism was not important. He was baptized himself (Ac. 22:16). He emphasized that baptism was a burial; (Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:121; he said that it cloths a person with Christ (Gal. 3:27); and that it put's a person into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
Some try to put the gospel at opposite ends with baptism. In other words, some say that baptism is not a part of the gospel of Christ. Jesus said, however, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mk. 16:16). Clearly Jesus said that baptism is a part of the gospel. If baptism is not a part of the gospel then Peter, John, Paul, and Phillip were all preaching something other than what Jesus commanded them to preach. Phillip "preached unto him Jesus" (Ac. 8:35) yet the Eunuch somehow learned that he needed to be baptized. Peter cried, "Repent and be baptized..." in response to the Jews question, "What shall we do?" (Ac. 2:37-38). Clearly baptism is a part of the gospel of Christ. And this being so, those who don't obey the gospel will have vengeance taken upon them at Christs' second coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

2. why have their been people throughout all ages that have saved, but never baptised?

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You fail to understand convenants. What you need to show is where someone was saved without baptism on this side of the cross from the bible. The new convenant did not come into effect until Jesus died on the cross. His blood went backwards and forwards and those that had died under the law were judged by the law.

1st peter 3.21
baptism does not save us, it is no good in putting away the filth of the flesh or making us born again, but it is only the answer of a good conscience toward God, it is only an answer to God through the goodness that has already been rought in us by salvation.
it is only a like figure of what really saved us. it is clearly said that baptism puts away the filth of no mans flesh.

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1 Pet. 3:21 -- Having affirmed that salvation in the days of Noah was through the water of the flood, Peter now draws a comparison with the water of baptism: "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The ASV says that this is "a true likeness." Salvation offered through water in the days of Noah is exactly parallel to salvation offered through water baptism. Baptism is the antitype of the waters of the great flood.

The water itself had no saving power in the flood, nor does it have any saving power today. The saving power for Noah was his obedience to God's Word. Eight souls obeyed God and prepared an ark, and God saved them through water. Today people obey the gospel plan of salvation culminating in water baptism, and God likewise saves them through water. The power of salvation is in God, rather than in the water.

The likenesses are seen in the similitude of the salvation through water in the days of Noah and water baptism in the Christian age. The waters of the flood bore the ark up and thus separated those in the ark from those outside the ark. Those in the ark were saved, and those outside perished. The flood also purged Noah's world of the sin that had been so prevalent and so deadly.

Water baptism in like fashion provides salvation through water to those inside the church, which is the spiritual ark of God today. Baptism separates the godly from the ungodly, because those who are Scripturally baptized kill off the old man of sin and bury it in the waters of baptism, to be resurrected a new man who no longer serves sin (Rom. 6:3-4). Thus, the old man is purged from sin never to serve sin again.

In order to insure that there are no misunderstandings concerning Peter's meaning of water baptism, he makes it clear in this verse that he is not talking about washing dirt from the physical body.

The baptism Peter is discussing in this verse is an interrogation of a good conscience. The word interrogate means "to inquire seriously or question." Baptism is not some outward, meaningless act. Baptism involves honestly and sincerely coming to God on His terms, seeking to be reconciled to God. A good conscience helps in the process of bringing one to Christ in gospel obedience. When one hears the Word of God, a person who has a good (properly functioning) conscience will be convicted of sin. The conscience convicts of sin, and thus leads a person to repent of sin and to be baptized for the remission of sin, first confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

Our salvation upon being baptized is "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Without the resurrection of Christ the gospel plan of salvation and everything connected to it would be meaningless. There would be no means by which we could be saved! Baptism saves now only because Christ not only died on the cross for our sins, but also because He was resurrected on the third day.

thankyou sir, for taking this to scripture.
wow, i must say i am honored to discuss this with you. you certainly are a well of great knowledge.

i agree that trusting in pauls death for you would make you of paul, and i agree that being baptised in the name of paul would make you of paul, but i dont thinks this is saying that one must have both happen in order to be of them. becuase the effects of the new testament gospel were put into effect many times without baptism being recorded in the incidents history.
i call for the evidence of the women caught in adultery, Christ simply forgave her of all her sins, and at that moment she was trusting in him for her salvation.
and Christ also forgave the crippled man who was lowered through the roof, of all his sins. this man was also trusting in Christ for his salvation. these 2 people were OF christ, without baptism.

now the reason i again raised evidence from before Christs death,
is becuase i dont believe the new covenant waited untill then to be put into effect.
i believe it was put into effect anytime it was preached, primarily the preaching of John the baptist.
the gospel was preached by John, i believe that is when it was effectual, and that is when the new terms of covenant were effectual. he preached to repent of sin, and trust in one who was greater than him, Jesus. Abraham was saved by faith far before even the old covenant was made.
but anyway, enough of that.

acts 10 and 11.
peter is sent by God to cornelius' house. to tell him how he may be saved. 11.14 he wasnt already saved.
yet peter preached to him and while he was yet preaching the holyspirit fell upon them and they all spoke in tongues.
they heard the message, they believed it and they got saved, and even fill with the holyspirit and spoke in tongues, before they were baptised.
i agree that paul did command them to be baptised, but they had already been saved, becuase they were filled with the holyghost, and even worked in the gifts of the spirit, theres no way they werent saved.
yet they werent baptised yet.

that is one example of people after the death of Christ, being saved without baptism. they were eventually baptised, but they got saved without it. and that is undeniable.

we do need to be baptised, as we need to do many things christ commanded us to do, baptism is a part of the gospel message, but salvation has occurred without, so its clear it isnt needed for salvation, but we are commanded to do many things that one doesnt need to do to simply be saved. becuase we get saved in altar calls, before weve had the chance to partake of communion, read our bibles, pray, or any of the other commandments of Jesus.

before i try to answer your evidence, ill ask this.
does your church hold baptismal services everynight and baptise every new convert the moment they confess him as lord and savoir lest they die without it?
if not, is that person not really saved yet?
if he died before he had the chance to be baptised, would he go to hell?
i believe not.

i agree,
that men must be baptised in Christ, in order to be saved, but this isnt speaking baptism into water but intoChrists body. this happens upon salvation, we are immerses into christ. and we must be to be saved, but i dont believe this is water baptism.
i believe in 3 baptisms. water, Christ, and the holyspirit.

the reason paul was thankful he didnt baptise much was because he feared people trust in him, this doesnt prove one must be baptised, but one must not be deceived into thinking he can trust in baptism into another.
i still say that if one is truely obligated to baptise people, that there surely would not anykind of thankfullness for not doing it.
and that he would have had a greater hand in seeing it done.
and why did Jesus himself not even baptise if it was so neccesary?
there would have been no wrong thinking in that, he could have baptised anyone and never have gone wrong.
but that in itself is evidence that the new covenant was working before his death, becuase he was putting that commandement into play.

well, whatever paul would have been doing in not baptising, he still simply did not baptise everyone he preached to. and we have no reason to say he was wrong for this. he was even thankful he did not, for whatever reason it was, he still did not baptise everyone he preached to, or even partake of that much at certain churches.
this does illustrate his lack of priority of baptism, becuase if baptism was such a big priority, he would have done it whether men think wrongly from it or not.

i never claimed it meant he was forbidden to baptise, i say it means it was not at the top of his priorities.

the things you say are done by baptism, i do not agree with.
those things are done by baptism into Christ, but that is not the same thing as baptism in water. it simply means one is baptised into, or immersed into, Christ when your saved, it doesnt have to refer to water baptism. the bible teaches that faith saves a man, that anyone who calls upon him shall be saved. it doesnt always add water baptism to it.

just becuase the eunech asked to be baptised by seeing the command of it in the gospel, does not mean its neccesary for salvation.
you say baptism is a trying or interrogation of the heart, well phillipp did not not baptise him untill he was sure the man was already true. it wasnt a proving of the truth, he wouldnt baptise the man without the man being true first.

yes baptism is a true likeness, but thats all it is, it is an outward portrayal of what has already taken place. since when has the likeness of something ever saved anyone?
the likeness is never powerful or of substance, only what it is a likeness of.

again, many people are saved, and not baptised immediatly today, is this diffrent in any church?
are these new converts not truely saved untill the pastor has an oppurtunity to immerse them in water?

before i try to answer your evidence, ill ask this.
does your church hold baptismal services everynight and baptise every new convert the moment they confess him as lord and savoir lest they die without it?
if not, is that person not really saved yet?
if he died before he had the chance to be baptised, would he go to hell?
i believe not.

i agree,
that men must be baptised in Christ, in order to be saved, but this isnt speaking baptism into water but intoChrists body. this happens upon salvation, we are immerses into christ. and we must be to be saved, but i dont believe this is water baptism.
i believe in 3 baptisms. water, Christ, and the holyspirit.

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Really quick. Yes we keep our baptistry full at all times and when someone is ready to become a christian and they are ready to baptized into christ they are baptized no matter what time or day it is. Of course it does not have to be the water at the church it could be any source of water that is deep enough for the person to be fully immersed. Lets say just for a moment that I am correct that one does not enter into Christ or have there sins washed away until they are water baptized. If a person dies before he or she makes it to the water they did not have their sins washed away so what do think the answer is? It would be very rare for something like this to happen anyways. So according to the word of God I would say they were lost. If God however looked into the heart and seen that they were headed to be baptized it would be left up to him decide in these special cases but the real question is what does that have to do with you? Are you on your way to be baptized? Is something hindering you from from following the command to be water baptized?

Please elobrate on what you mean to be imersed in Christ and how that differs from water baptism and HS baptism.

Now I know this might be lazy on my part but I have already had a hugh debate on this very topic and I have covered everything you have broght up. So if you dont mind would you please go and read my post #406 to the end of the thread which is all on one page and let me know if you have any addtional questions or comments. Thanks Cougan
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=592741#post592741 #406 to the end

so you say theyd be lost, well no, i dont find that acceptable, becuase it says anyone who calls upon him in faith shall be saved, and theyve done that. i dont believe it would be true that anyone who called upon him could be saved if they did so, and died before they were baptised and were lost for it.

being baptised into christ.
being baptised into water.

is the same as,
being immersed into christ.
being immersed into water.

they are 2 very diffrent things, becuase people go to the ocean everyday and are immersed into water. yet none of them are immersed into christ by that action.

when the bible speaks of being immersed into christ, it is simply refering to being submerged into, or immersed into christs body, the person of christ, because thats all it says.
it doesnt say anything about water.
though the term baptism is used for both, becuase they both refer to immersions into something, but they dont speak of the same immersion.

just becuase you can be immersed in christ, and immersed into water, does not mean or give any reason to think it means, they are refering to the same thing.

becuase many people have been immersed into water, and never came anywhere near salvation or being immersed into Christ.

the fact that you can do one, without having the other happen, means they arent same thing.

ok i tried to read your other post but couldnt follow some it and got pretty confused,

i understand that you can quote verses where people said repent and be baptised and you will saved.
and i think pretty much all you did was use a pre-assumption that one must be baptised to say those verses meant that.

and if i could not find examples of
1.people being forgiven and born again
2.God saying people were forgiven
4.God saying peoples names were written in heavon
5.people being filled with the holyghost
6.people working in the gifts of the spirit

before baptism, i would probly have to agree that most of the evidence leans toward you.

but in light of those facts, i cannot agree that the bible teaches salvation by baptism. yet i do agree the bible teaches we all are to be baptised.

im sorry, i never read where you addressed the history of cornelius being saved, filled with the holyspirit, working in the gifts of the spirit, without being baptised.
i did see where you addressed the statement of peter and how he and others had believed, and how it didnt refer to cornelius, and how you talked about mary's gift, but none of that means anything to the history of cornelius' achievements in the spirit that are clearly defined and recorded, without water baptism.

just to pick your brain, if baptism is for remmision of sins, then why was jesus baptised who knew no sin?
and you cant just say "it was too fullfill all righteousness"
i agree it had to be done to fullfill all righteousness, but that doesnt tell why it had to be done.
jesus knew no sin, it wasnt for remission of sins.
there was some other reason, the true reason why we are baptised.

9th February 2003 at 05:03 PM Online Bible Debator said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=642882#post642882)

Yes I just wanted to say I've seen many types of plans of salvations or ways to God. If your not Blood bought by Christ then your not going to have any prayer answered. I wanted to see what kind of site this was so i seen the How to become a christian at the Bottom. I just wanted to say I know you most likely ment to leave Baptism out. But without Baptism nobody will get to heaven I can post all the scriptures you want. Because the Bible backs up Baptism not praying and getting salvation through a prayer.

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The Pharisees had a very legalistic God; Christians generally don't.

Today at 11:53 AM endure said this in Post #10

so you say theyd be lost, well no, i dont find that acceptable, becuase it says anyone who calls upon him in faith shall be saved, and theyve done that. i dont believe it would be true that anyone who called upon him could be saved if they did so, and died before they were baptised and were lost for it.

being baptised into christ.
being baptised into water.

is the same as,
being immersed into christ.
being immersed into water.

they are 2 very diffrent things, becuase people go to the ocean everyday and are immersed into water. yet none of them are immersed into christ by that action.

when the bible speaks of being immersed into christ, it is simply refering to being submerged into, or immersed into christs body, the person of christ, because thats all it says.
it doesnt say anything about water.
though the term baptism is used for both, becuase they both refer to immersions into something, but they dont speak of the same immersion.

just becuase you can be immersed in christ, and immersed into water, does not mean or give any reason to think it means, they are refering to the same thing.

becuase many people have been immersed into water, and never came anywhere near salvation or being immersed into Christ.

the fact that you can do one, without having the other happen, means they arent same thing.

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Ok I want to keep this as simple as I can without going into long explantions. First of all it seems to me that you are not sure what it means to be immersed into christ or how it differs from HS and water baptism.

It seems to me that with your understanding that a person must be imersed in CHrist  before they are saved. You would have to conclude that one must be immersed into Christ before they are saved. The question is how and when does a person become immersed into Christ? If you will please put the following in order so I can see clearly where you view is at.

Grace, Faith, Repentence, Confessing Jesus as Lord, immersion into christ, immersion into water, immersion of the HS, Saved/sins removed.

Again, if you would please tell me with your understanding is Mat 28:19 water baptism, Immersion into Christ or HS baptism? Please answer the same thing for acts 2:38 and 1Peter 3:21 and one more acts 22:16?

I want to try and focus on just a few things at time this time. When we start discussing multiple points I beleive that confusion sets in. I will say this that being immersed in water is not magical and it is not the water that saves. It is however the point at which God through our obedience of faith unites us together with Christ washing away our sins adding us the the church which is christ body. This is very similar to Naamen in the OT. He belived that God could heal him and he was told what to do to be able to be healed. The gift of healing was provided by God but Naamen had his part to do. He had to dip himself 7 times in the Jordan and it wasnt until he came up that 7th time that his healing occured. All through out the bible God has provided grace or a free gift but man always had his part to obtain the free gift by being obedient to the faith. This does not mean that man earns this gift but instead is just being an obedient servant because he loves his master and will obey his commands. When one is baptized they must know what it is they are doing and they should put their faith in the operation of God and know that they are being immersed with Christ in the water grave of baptism, that there old man is dieing and there sins are being washed away and that they are being raised up a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with <I>Him </I>through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

So you see ones heart&nbsp;must be in the right place they must understand what is happeing in their water baptism other wize they are just getting wet. The above verses clearly show your faith working with your water baptism where you are immersed into Christ.

This is already getting longer than I wanted it to be and I apologize for that but one more thing. You say that when someone calls on him they will be saved. Please note in the great speech that Peter gave at the birth of the church he quoted an OT scripture, Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass <I>That </I>whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' Please note that this does not mean some vocal call as we can see from Matthew 7:21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Then we see clearly from the rest of the story in acts 2 that calling on the name of the lord involved at least faith, repentence and baptism.

37 Now when they heard <I>this, </I>they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men <I>and </I>brethren, what shall we do?"38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I could go on and on but I will stop now so I dont get to many arguements going at once. Please take the time to answer the questions from the begining so we can reason from the scriptures somemore. I have intentional let out references to book chapter and verse in alot of what I have presented because I want to bring them out at latter time.

Thanks,

Cougan


&nbsp;

Today at 12:18 PM endure said this in Post #11

ok i tried to read your other post but couldnt follow some it and got pretty confused,

i understand that you can quote verses where people said repent and be baptised and you will saved.
and i think pretty much all you did was use a pre-assumption that one must be baptised to say those verses meant that.

and if i could not find examples of
1.people being forgiven and born again
2.God saying people were forgiven
4.God saying peoples names were written in heavon
5.people being filled with the holyghost
6.people working in the gifts of the spirit

before baptism, i would probly have to agree that most of the evidence leans toward you.

but in light of those facts, i cannot agree that the bible teaches salvation by baptism. yet i do agree the bible teaches we all are to be baptised.

im sorry, i never read where you addressed the history of cornelius being saved, filled with the holyspirit, working in the gifts of the spirit, without being baptised.
i did see where you&nbsp;addressed the statement of peter&nbsp;and how he and others had believed, and how it didnt refer to cornelius, and how you talked about mary's gift, but none of that means anything to the history of cornelius' achievements in the spirit that are clearly defined and recorded, without water baptism.

just to pick your brain, if baptism is for remmision of sins, then why was jesus baptised who knew no sin?
and you cant just say "it was too fullfill all righteousness"
i agree it had to be done to fullfill all righteousness, but that doesnt tell why it had to be done.
jesus knew no sin, it wasnt for remission of sins.
there was some other reason, the true reason why&nbsp;we are baptised.

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I really did'nt want to deal with this post as yet but lets stop it with this one and focus in on a few arguements at once. I really need you to use book chapter verse when you make your points like in the 6 you have provided. We have to examine the timeframe and the context of the verses that are giving you problems accepting that water baptism is essention for salvation. I went and found where I wrote about Cornelius and I will just paste it below so you can read it right here. Please note That it will be addressing a person name Ben from the thread I posted it in.

Now let us examine this event one last time. This event is talked about in act 10 and 11. The first thing I want to point out is that Chapter 11 is told in order of what happened and 10 is more general. This indeed was a very special event as about 7 years has passed since the day of Pentacost and here is when God decides to let the world know that Gentiles can also become Christians as well. God prepares Peters mind with a vision for what is fixing to take place. Cornelius and his house hold were God fearing people they BELIEVED in him and prayed to him always. God decides to use these God fearing Gentiles to open the door for the rest of us Gentiles. You can imagine the excitment of Cornelious and his household when angel told them in 11:14 that Peter would tell them the WORDS BY WHICH they would be saved.&nbsp;Peter shows up and act 10 tells us what he general said and then he says WHILE he was still speaking those words the HS fell on them. 10:14. Chapter 11 being in order gives us even more infomation. We find out in vrs 11:15 it says As he BEGAN to speak the HS fell on them. When you look at the greek word here for began you see that it denotes that something just started but it was intrupted by something else. Peter did not have time to tell them the words they needed to be saved by before the HS fell on them. We see that Peter and his friends were shocked to see the gentiles get the HS directly from heaven like the apostles did on the day of Pentacost. If things would of went as normal Peter would of preached them the message, then they would of received the message been water baptized then Peter would of laid his hands on them so the could receive the HS. The last time someone had been HS baptized directly from heaven&nbsp;was the day of Pentacost and Peter confirms this in 11:16-17 because he had to remember back to when it happened last and he remembered back to the day of Pentacost. If this HS had been happeing to everyone like Ben claims Peter could of sure recited another instance that happened before 7 years eariler. We do know that after Corneilus household had the HS fall on them that Peter finishished telling them the words by which they needed to be saved. I do not lable this as a 2nd Pentacost but it was at this time that God poured out his spirit on these Gentiles to prove or show to the Jews there including Peter that they could now be a part of his kingdom. Thats why Peter in 11:17 says he could not withstand God. Then we clearly see that these words that they need to here to be saved included the command of water baptism. Peter not wanting to resist God raised the question can any forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the HS just as we have. In other words God has accepted them as equals with us who are we to forbid them from being baptized in the name of Jesus having their sins washed aways and being added to the church/kingdom. Then Peter commanded them to be water baptized.

1st I want you to notice no where in this context does it say that they were saved when the HS fell on them.

Now Ben says that someone cannot receive the HS baptism that is in unbeliver. Thats not entirely true. I showed you in Luke 1:15 that John was filled with the HS even from the womb. Now surely you cant say that he belived in the womb. Luke 1:41 John mother was filled with the HS as well. I could show you others if you like but this is enough to make my point. You have to remember that Corneilus household were not unbelivers in God but were big time belivers in God. They did not have to know the message about Jesus to have the HS poured out on them. It also did not mean that they were saved when the HS fell on them. No doubt under the old law they were apparently pleasing to God as he listened to their prayers. The HS was contantly revealing stuff and this was another instance where he was revealing to the Jews that the Gentiles could now be water baptized into the body.

Why did Jesus get baptized? If I wasn't so tired I would deal with&nbsp;this question myself in more detail. First of all he did do it to fullfill all righteousness Mat 3:15. Jesus was being obedient to the father as he was obedient unto death. Phip 2:8. This was also the time that Jesus began his ministry and the point where it was made know to John that Jesus was truely the son of God. John 1:32-34. Even though he had no sin and did not need to repent he was baptized as an example to us to be obedient to the father and to do his will.

This will echo some of my same thoughts as above but here a short writting on this subject from the denton commentaries.

&nbsp;Matt. 3:13 -- Jesus came to John for the purpose of being baptized by him.&nbsp; He came the 70 to 80 miles from "Nazareth of Galilee" (Mark 1:9) because He needed to be baptized by John, but not for the reason others did.&nbsp; Unlike others, He needed no repentance, He had no sins to confess, and He could offer no fruits showing repentance.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Matt. 3:14-15 -- The conversation between John and Jesus in Matt. 3:14-15 is peculiar to Matthew's account.&nbsp; The expression "John forbad him" in the KJV is translated "John would have hindered him" in the ASV. John knew that, though a prophet, he himself had sins for which he needed forgiveness.&nbsp; He recognized that Jesus was his moral and spiritual superior, and if one was going to baptize the other on this occasion, Jesus should baptize him.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yet Jesus requested that John allow Him to be baptized.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; He gave one reason: It was fitting and proper for "us (the two of them) to fulfil all righteousness" (Matt. 3:15).&nbsp; "Righteousness" comes from the word dikaiosune and is defined as "the character or quality of being right or just ... right action."&lt;4&gt;&nbsp; It is often used "in the sense of fulfilling the divine statutes."&lt;5&gt;&nbsp; Other reasons for Jesus' baptism may be inferred from various Bible passages and principles.&nbsp; First, the baptism of John was from Heaven, given by the authority of God. When Jesus asked the chief priests and elders whether the baptism of John was from Heaven or from men, they understood the implications of admitting that it was from Heaven.&nbsp; Jesus asked them why they did not believe John (Matt. 21:24-27).&nbsp; What if the enemies of Christ could have pointed to Jesus and said, "All right, if John's baptism is from Heaven, why haven't you submitted to it?"

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Second, Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3), and it behooved Him "in all things to be made like unto his brethren" (Heb. 2:17). Third, Jesus' baptism may have been intended to serve as an example for us. Peter wrote that Christ left "us an example, that ye should follow his steps" (1 Pet. 2:21).&nbsp; Fourth, Jesus' compliance may be an indication of one way in which He "learned obedience" so He could be the Savior of those who obey Him (Heb. 5:8-9).&nbsp; He could not expect others to obey Him if He did not obey the Father.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Finally, I suggest that Jesus was baptized because it was time to enter into His ministry.&nbsp; This served as the occasion of validating John's message and gave him specific, promised proof of His being the "Lamb of God," as John was preaching (John 1:29-34).&nbsp; In this manner, Jesus was helping to bring John's Heaven-authorized work to a successful conclusion.

One last thing I seem to recall you saying something like the new convant began before the cross. If you did say this I can show you really quick that the new covenant did not begin until the death of Jesus.
HEB9:16 For where there <I>is </I>a testament, there must also of necessity be the <B>death </B>of the <B>testator.</B>
17 For a testament <I>is </I>in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

This is really simple to see. Before the new covenant could come&nbsp;into effect Jesus had to die first. When he died on the cross not only did the new convanant come into effect the old one was nailed to the cross and made obsolete Heb 8:13. Then it began at the day of Pentacost&nbsp;when the commands and words of the new covanant began to be probated that we are to go by today.

I hope this helps.

Cougan

well, what i believe is that being immersed into christ, is the same action as becoming saved. it is what makes you saved. christ coming into you, you coming into christ, it is same thing as the happening of salvation.
i dont think its write to say one must be immersed BEFORE salvation, but it is the point at which your saved.

like christ living in you is what saves you.
yet christ doesnt come into you before your saved.
being saved and having him in you are speaking of the same thing, when one happens, the other is happening also.

im trying to make it simple.

you being immersed into christ, and christ coming into you, are not seperate happenings either, christ said he was in them, and they were in him.

uhmm if you can make these all seperate happenings this is how id say they go,
Grace, Faith, Repentence, Confessing Jesus as Lord, immersion into christ, Saved/sins removed.

HS baptism.
first off when i speak of the holyspirit baptism, i am not speaking of the time when the holyspirit first enters a persons life. but the time when they are BAPTISED in the holyspirit, such as the happenings on the day of pentecost. one can have the holyspirit living in them and be saved,&nbsp;yet not be baptised in the holyspirit&nbsp;nor be filled with the holyspirit either.

HS baptism could be placed anywhere in the order of those things named, except before salvation.

immersion in water can be placed anywhere on that list before or after salvation, but is not effective untill after salvation in what it is meant for.

MATT 28.19
this is water baptism, it is something the disciples were told to do.
this is the only baptism that a man can do with his hands, but no man can save you (baptise you into Chrsit)&nbsp;or baptise you in the Spirit, God does those. becuase those are not physical and cannot be done with fleshly hands.

1ST PETER 3.21
this is water baptism, as v20 makes clear.
also becuase this not does put away the filth of the flesh, as baptism into Christ does. becuase anyone who is IN Christ, is a NEW creature 2 cor 5.17.
to be baptised in Christ is to be a new creature. but to be baptised in water does not change you.

ACTS 2.38
this is water baptism also.
becuase it is an act that is done by you in the name of the Lord Jesus, you do not baptise yourself into Christ in the name of Christ, God does this for you, its&nbsp;not something you can do with your hands as water baptism is.

ACTS 22.16
this water baptism also.

being buried with him in baptism is not talking about water baptism.&nbsp;but it is talking about being baptised into Christ.
romans 6.3
know ye not, that so many of us as were baptised INTO JESUS CHRIST, were baptised into his death.
(speaking of the happening you quoted from col. 2.12,13)
this being buried and raised with him, happens at the point of salvation by faith, when a person is immersed by God into Christ.
the moment we call on him by faith, we are saved.
and at that moment we are immersed by God into Christ.
(simply speaking of you now being in him, the union of you and him that saves you by his power)
at the moment we are immersed into Christ, the significance of "being buried and raised with him" takes place.
simply saying the benefits of Christs life, death&nbsp;and ressurection take place the moment your saved by faith, or the moment your immersed into Christ. but this can happen without water baptism, as it surely did for cornelius.

i agree that calling on the name of the lord isnt simply vocal.
but the fact that a person is able to call upon him with disobedience in their life and not be heard, is no evidence to say a person cant be saved the&nbsp;moment they call on him.

but it is clear, any person, anywhere, can call upon God and be saved, even if that man is alone in the desert miles from water and&nbsp;with no man to baptise him&nbsp;and cannot be baptised.
it would not be true anyman could call upon him and be saved, if he had to be baptised, becuase baptism isnt always possible.

no, i do not agree that calling upon the name of the lord involves baptism, becuase they are spoken as 2 diffrent actions and one can do either without the other.
yet they were told to be baptised also.

acts 2.37,38

i know peter told them to repent and be baptised for remission of sins and they would receive the gift of the holyspirit.

but i think the point he was making was that they had to be baptised in the name of Jesus, becuase doing this was an outward sighn of them throwing off judaism.
and i understand you could take that to mean the bible teaches that one must be baptised also before hes really saved.
but that would mean if a person is not in a place to be baptised, then no matter how contrite his heart is, he cant be saved and hes doomed and no matter how mighty and loving God is, he cannot help this man whos come to him. but the bible says his hand is not shortened that it cant save, and hell by no means cast out anyone who comes to him. (with the right heart that is, but a person can have the right heart without&nbsp;and before baptism)
i simply dont accept that.
i believe it simply means they were commanded to be baptised, but it was the repenting that truely saved them. the baptism was an outward display and confession of what was already true on the inside.

ok, now i see your aregument about cornelius,
i disagree with&nbsp;some of your fundamental basics&nbsp;of this story.

ok, first ill point out that believing in God, and fearing God do not save you. that is no reason to believe they were already saved.
becuase many have believed in the existence of God, and even had a fear of God, and even pray to God, yet not be saved, becuase the message of the cross,&nbsp;and faith in it, and obedience to&nbsp;it,&nbsp;is what saves us, you can&nbsp;believe in God, and fear him, and pray&nbsp;yet not know the message of the cross or be in union with it.
so what the cornelius did is no evidence to say he was already saved.
and it is clear that they were not already saved, becuase the angel spoke and told them were would soon learn how to be.
if there had been any other purpose, the angel could have said so but did not and he even gave a false meaning of why paul would come.

next,
i do not agree that the thing he could not withstand was simply water baptism of cornelius, but rather simply the working of God in gentiles. so he did baptise them.

i greatly disagree, i do not believe it&nbsp;is possible to have the holyspirit come upon you and even manifest the gifts of the spirit, without you ever being saved. (the gift of speaking in tongues for example&nbsp
in 1 cor 12 it says these gifts of the holyspirit are given to us by God v4 and they are an outworking of the God who is working IN us v6. theres no way they worked in the power of God and yet not have God in them. this means your saved. how can God be dwelling in you, and you not be Gods?

speaking in tongues, is one of the gifts of the spirit.
what the gifts of the spirit are, are gifts that make up the working of the body of Christ. people who are in the body of Christ work in these gifts, and through this the body of Christ works.
12.12
you dont work in these gifts if your not in the body of Christ, meaning your saved. becuase paul said gifts of the spirit could be called the diffrent members of the body of Christ, so how can a person who isnt in the body of Christ work in them?
and if your in the body of Christ your saved.

no, i dont agree that an unbeliever can be filled with the holyghost.
and i dont agree that John in the womb being filled with the holyghost is proof that it one can be.
it does aww me that one could be filled in the womb, and i do respect your reasoning and understand why you would think that.
but the fact that the gifts are given to the church and body of Christ, are reason enough for me that one can be saved in the womb and becuase john was filled with the holyspirit.

i know this will sound far out, and thats ok if you think so.
ill try to keep this simple, it is not impossible for God to know&nbsp;a person in the womb, and it is not impossible for a person still in the womb to have alteast some amount of intellect. the child comes out of the womb knowing certain things, he knows pain, he knows diffrent stimulations, he is not completely void of knowledge and intellect, the brain is working becuase the child is alive.
im simply saying it isnt unreasonable to say a child even in the womb can have some sort of intellect and "know" certain things.
it would not be impossible for an allpowerful, allwise God to make himself known unto a child in the womb, becuase that child can know things even if they may be the most base of things.
i dont see it as unreasonable for a child in the womb to realise God and have some sort of action that allows him to&nbsp;get in touch with God on atleast some level.


ok, about your denton commentary.
pretty much everything said about the baptism of Jesus, and its motive was said with the assumption that it was for a diffrent reason than why we get baptised. i see no proof of this.
and the theory of why John tried to forbid him isnt proven to me either.
i do not agree that those could have been the only reasons why John forbade him.
it could have been because John felt so inferior to this man.
not because Jesus did not need it for some of the same reasons we need it.
since i dont agree that baptism takes away sin and dont see proof of it in scripture, i dont agree that the purpose of baptism for us is to simply cause remission of sins.
this is why i dont agree that John&nbsp;forbade him souly becuase Jesus had no sin. so i dont agree that why we get baptised and why Jesus got baptised are extremely diffrent points. so i dont agree or see any reason to believe we get baptised to get saved.
it still goes back to me seeing no proof of it in scripture.

i do read of places where the commandments to be baptised, and to repent and call on God and be saved were placed together.
but i believe the baptism is simply the outward showing of what has already happened becuase of the repenting and faith.
becuase of times that it appears to me that one was saved, before baptism.
and i see no real evidence that proves one could not be saved and still be filled with the holyghost, which is a theory you raised to say the things happening before baptism are no proof one was already saved&nbsp;before baptism.

becuase the gifts of the spirit are only actions by the body of Christ. no sinner is in the body of Christ, i dont think you could say one could be filled with the holyghost and work in the gifts of the spirit and not be saved.

well,
to show you&nbsp;i am not be hostile or prejudice toward your belief.
i salute you in God, you have surely done your research and i honor you for that, if i did not have a few reasons of my own, i would most likely say you are in the truth and have proved me wrong. it is an honor to discuss this with you.

Lee myers.

hey, disregard that smiley face that got inserted in there.
it makes me look arrogant and overconfident, i didnt mean to put it there.

WOW! OHH MY GOSH! thankyou thankyou!
I HAD NEVER SAW THAT BEFORE, you are correct then.
the new covenant was not in effect untill after Jesus died.
i am glad to come to any new truth. i hope this is proof that i am willing to hear anything you have to say, i really do listen to everyones posts and if i dont agree its becuase i have a reason, not becuase i just dont want to.

I wonder if it had occurred to anyone, that if baptism was not neccessary, God would not have placed it in the Bible so as to avoid confusion. After all God is not the author of confusion is He?

I don't see God placing redundant statements in His word.

The "Gospels" are not really part of the "New testament" as they contain narratives of Jesus' life &amp; ministry that occurred before his death &amp; resurrection. This all took place under the O.T. Law, as this is what he came to fulfil. &nbsp;His ministry contains all the instructions that pertain to everlasting life, that was to take place on the day of Pentecost. That is the day the Church was started, not a moment before.

A "testament" is the legacy left by someone that dies, therefore the "testament could not possibly have been in effect until after his death, and as we see Peter's statement on the day of pentecost, the pouring out of the Spirit was the fulfilment of the "promise" or the last "will &amp; testament" of Jesus the Christ.

Peter's statement to the gathered crowd about repentance, baptism &amp; receiving the Holy Spirit is as valid today as it was then.

The question should be better asked this way,

Does baptism save you?

The answer would have to be no, as baptism by itself cannot save you, but Baptism in the overall context of salvation is indeed neccessary.

uhmm if you can make these all seperate happenings this is how id say they go,Grace, Faith, Repentence, Confessing Jesus as Lord, immersion into christ, Saved/sins removed.

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Ok let me take another try at this. First of all I am in total agreement with the order that you put these events in. Where are disagreement lies is how and when is one immeresed into Christ. I am also in agreement that immersion into Christ and salvation occur at the same time after all that is when your sins are removed. We would both agree that one must be immersed into Christ to be saved. I am still not for sure from you explaination of what being immersed in Christ means to you. Are you saying that you say a sinners prayer and ask him into you heart then you are saved or something like that?

HS baptism.
first off when i speak of the holyspirit baptism, i am not speaking of the time when the holyspirit first enters a persons life. but the time when they are BAPTISED in the holyspirit, such as the happenings on the day of pentecost. one can have the holyspirit living in them and be saved,&nbsp;yet not be baptised in the holyspirit&nbsp;nor be filled with the holyspirit either.

HS baptism could be placed anywhere in the order of those things named, except before salvation.

immersion in water can be placed anywhere on that list before or after salvation, but is not effective untill after salvation in what it is meant for.

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Ok heres where things get complicated but lets try and simply this ok. It appears to me that that you belive that there are&nbsp; 3 baptism today. baptism into Christ, HS baptism, and water baptism. You have also stated that HS baptism occurs after salvation. Then you say that water baptism can occur before or after salvation but fort it to BE EFFECTIVE it must be after salvation. If water baptism is not part of salvation how can it be effective if its just some ritual that is a outward sign for an inward change?

Here come the big delima. You state that there are 3 baptism but when Paul wrote the book of Eph their only remained 1 baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

The way I see it your going to have to narrow your baptism down to one. There is only one that saves. From the best I can tell from what you wrote you agree that HS baptism is not what saves a person. In fact not one single verse states that one is saved by being HS baptized. Now we are down to 2 which I belive is really only 1.

Let me makes some logical points here. Lets take a look at some of those things found in Christ Jesus.

Every spiritual blessing Eph 1:3,
Redemption and forgiveness of sin Eph 1:7,
No Condemantion Rm 8:2,
New Creation 2 Cor 5:17,
Grace 2 Tim 2:1
Salvation 2Tim 2:10
and eternal life. 1Jn 5:11.

I think that we would both agree that a person needs to be in Christ to be saved. We only have&nbsp;2 passages that tell us how we get INTO CHRIST.

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It becomes very clear that one must be baptized into christ in order to be saved and to have all the things that are found in Christ. Now let me offer more proof.

Eph4:4 <I>There is </I>one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

The one body mentioned here is the church and the church is the body of Christ. So when one is baptized into Christ one is put into the body which is the one church. There is only one baptism that puts you into the one body.

Colossians 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Ephesians 1:22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

As you can clearly see the above verses proclaim loudly that the one body is the church which is Christ body. We see from 1Cor 12:13 that we must be baptized into the one body which is equivalant to being baptized into Christ in Rom 6:4, Gal 3:27. You will also please take note that this passage says BY one Spirit&nbsp;which&nbsp;means&nbsp;by the guidence of the HS as accomplished through the word Eph 6:17.&nbsp;Again, we want to be found in that one body because Jesus is the savior of the body.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

So let it stand by the word of God that whatever this baptism is in all of these passages wheather water baptism,&nbsp;immersion in Christ, or HS baptism it must take place before one enters into Christ and is saved.

I would suspect that we are still in total agreement so far but now while we keep the above in mind let continue on. I really do hope that you stay with me here and think about this stuff logically.

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, <I>even </I>to the end of the age."
You agree that this is talking about water baptism here and rightly so. First point through this teaching and water baptism was how disciples were made. Second baptism is "into the name" the Father,Son, HS. "into the name" signifies to come into the possession of another. So at the point of water baptism a person enters into a special relationship with God which does not occur before one is water baptized. Third with in the context here teaching and water baptizing people making them disciples was to continue until the end of the world/age. It seems very clear that water baptism is that one baptism in Eph 4:5 which puts you into Christ.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Once again you agree that this is water baptism. First I want to point out in Peter great sermon in verse 21 And it shall come to pass <I>That </I>whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' The people there head this but we find them wanting to know what they need to do in verse 37 Now when they heard <I>this, </I>they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men <I>and </I>brethren, what shall we do?" Then we see the answer in acts 2:38. We can clearly see that calling on the name of the Lord includes faith, repentence, and water baptism within this context. The verse could not be any clearer that it is. Peter tells them to REPENT AND be (WATER) BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus FOR&nbsp; the remmison of sins. It just does'nt get any more simple than this. But watch as we continue down the chapter.
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added <I>to them.</I>

47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Here we have the great commission in Mat 28:19 taking place. The apostle taught the word of truth and those that received it or accepted were water baptized. Those that were water baptized were added to them in other words they were made disciples. Within context we see that through this water baptism these people were being added to the church by the Lord those who were being saved. Do you not see how easy this is to understand. You seem to have the idea&nbsp;that if a man baptizes someone that somehow he is saving the person he is baptizing. This simple is not the case. He is only there to assist the person into the water and out of the water. To show you this with clarity I point you to the following verse.

Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with <I>Him </I>through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.


You see when you go under the water by your&nbsp; faith in the working of God you are being buried with Jesus into his death. Your sins are being washed away this is a spiritual cleasing and not some physical cleansing 1eter 3:21 By your faith in the working of God you are being united with Christ Rom 6:5 being raised a new creature in Christ as you are raised from the water grave. You are added to the one body/church by God and not man. This is done out of your obedience to the faith Rom 6:17. It is those that obey that have salvation. Heb 5:9. I belive it to be very important for you to be water baptized for the right reason. If you are being water baptized because you are already saved then its not a vailid baptism. You must know what it is that you are puting your faith into and what is happeing during this act of obedience. Lets move on.

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1Peter 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while <I>the </I>ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Again, you agree this is water baptism. Here is a passage that clearly says that (water) baptism saves us. Now think about this one logically. If the bible says that (water) baptism saves us, doesnt it make sense that it is part of salvation? The bible says we are saved by hope Rom 8:24, Grace and Faith eph 2:8. Now the bible never says grace, faith, hope, or baptism ALONE. It is all of these things working together that puts one into a saved conditon. Of course I did'nt mention the others such as repenting and confessing but it takes them all because they all save. But baptism is the last step if you will that you do that puts you into Christ. Its when your sins are removed acts 2:38. Peter very clearly here is pointing out that this water baptism is not the removal of dirt from the skin but it is a spirtual cleansing. The Jews would dip themselves to clean their outer bodies before they entered into the temple and Peter here I belive is delclairing what water baptism is not. In submitting to water baptism, we are appealing to God for a good conscience. The geniune good conscience cannot be enjoyed prior to this act of of obedience.

Literally, the salvation of Noah is a type, a true likeness of our salvation, and antitype from sin. The flood waters bore the ark from the corrupt wicked world to a purfied world. So likewize today water baptism takes us from world and into Chirst. Please notice how the Noah and the ark compares to today.

One Ark Gen 6:14 One Church Mat 16:18, col 1:18
One door Gen 6:16 One Door John 10:9 14:6
One window Gen 6:16 One light Psm 119:105
One kind of Material Gen 6:14 One kind of Material Acts2:37-41,47
One Family Gen 7:7 One Family Eph 3:15, 1:22-23
Salvation inside 1eter 3:20 Salvation inside Isa 46:13, Heb 12
Destruction outside Gen 7:23 Destruction outside 2Thes 1:7-9


Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Once again in my amazement you agree that this is water baptism here. The text clearly says that Pauls sins were washed by (water) baptism just like acts 2:38 tells us. It is important to remember that at this Point Paul belived in Jesus, repented, and confessed Jesus as lord yet he was still in his sins. He had been fasting and praying to God for 3 days while he waited for further instructions. Again, we have him praying yet he is still in his sins. Then Ananias comes to him and tells him to Arize and be baptized,(this is in the middle voice which would mean "have yourself immersed" See Vine,63:Robertson, 391. In his New Testament Greek Grammer 1965:132, W.E. Vine stated that the aorist tense and the middle voice froms here emphaisize "a decisive and immediate" action, and that Saul had to make the arrangment for himself to be immersed. This is consistent with the concept that baptism is a personal decision. This also rules out the baptism here being HS baptism since Paul would not to arize or prepare anything because HS baptism could occur lieing down, sitting or standing up. I have established that the baptism mentioned here in this verse is not HS baptism and based off all the above we can conclude that it is water baptism.

I have labored hard to try and show you that water baptism is the point you are immersed into Christ. Just add a few more points I want you to remember in act 8 that Philip followed the great commission. He taught the people at Samaria they accepted the word and were water baptized. They did not receive the HS until after the apostles came and laid hands on them. They were saved when they were water baptized. The enunch in the same chapter heard the word accepted and saw a pool of water on the side of the road and was very urgent to be water baptized. WHY? Because its at the point of water baptism your sins are washed away.&nbsp;The enunch rejoiced after he was water baptized. In acts 19 Paul re-water baptizes some men that had been baptized with John baptism. In Acts 16 after the apostles taught the word to the jailer household they did not wait they were water baptized in the middle of the night. WHY? Because its at the point of water baptism your sins are washed away.

Then finally Cornelius household. When Peter saw that the HS had fell on them directly from heaven instead of them receiveing it from the laying on of hands by the apostle he knew without a doubt that God now granted the gentile repentence unto life. He had to tell them the words that they needed to be saved by and he was interuptued before he had a chance to do this. The out pouring of the HS on these Gentiles were not for the Gentiles themselves but a sign to the Jews to show that the Gentiles could now be saved. Peter continued telling them the words they had to hear to be saved by and then he commaned them to be water baptized.

You seem to have a problem with accepting that someone that was not saved would have the HS work in them. I would agree with you that after the day of Pentacost that the only people that received the gift of the HS only did so through the laying on of the hands by the apostles and that they only laid their hands on those that had received the word and were water baptized. Thats is why Peter and his compainions were so shocked when they seen the gentiles had received the HS directly from heaven like the last time it happend on the day of Pentacost. Again its not like the Gentiles were unbelivers but the feared the Lord greatly and prayed and fasted and God heard their prayer. He used them to show Peter and his companions without a doubt that they could now be saved. He also showed this to Peter in a vison before he even made it to Cornilus house. You must remember that no where in scriputer does it say that HS baptism saves you. The HS was alway revealing new things and it was always confirmed by a miracle or sign. That is exactly what we have here with Cornelious household. I used John being filled with the HS from the womb as one example. What you don't seem to understand is that people were filled with the HS even the OT times. Let me add a few more in the NT that had to of had the HS involved. There was Pilate wife she suffered bad dreams because of Jesus. in John 11 we have&nbsp;Caiaphas the high priest prophesying about Jesus who was an enemy to Christ. Theres you 2 more example of the HS working in unbelivers. I am not even going to touch on your maybe a baby could belive concept. Well thats it for now. I hope that this is of benfit to you and that you would seriously consisder what I have said. I have tried to lay everything out it a simple to understand fashion.

God Bless,

Cougan