The End Time King of Judah

Shocker · May 10, 2014

Interplanner said:
He ate a piece of matzah with him in real Judean 1st century space and time....

Show me where Jesus Christ calls Judas the son of perdition by name.

Please son, if you are gonna get on here and type out lies all day, at least support your evidence.

You do know what scriptural evidence is, don't you son?

Biblewriter · May 10, 2014

Douggg said:
James, where in the four gospels is "the beast", the central antagonist figure of the end times, prophesied?

The gospels are not even about this subject.

Douggg · May 10, 2014

Biblewriter said:
The gospels are not even about this subject.

You have not referenced the gospels, agreed, but you have listed the biggest antagonists of the end times, who Jesus will have the two main ones - the beast and false prophet - cast into the lake of fire.

The point I am making is that you have approached the subject of the 5 main characters (in your opinion) as being different individuals.

Which that approach is erroneous concerning the little horn, the king of fierce countenance, the prince who shall come, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the beast (first beast of Revelation), as they are all the same person, and is the another that Jesus told Nicomdemus they, the Jews would accept coming in his own name. ....but you have no connection with your hypothesis of the Roman Leader major antagonist with the gospels and end times Jesus spoke about. There is no connection between the Roman beast you have described and with any person Jesus described in the gospels.

Also, what you have neglected among other things is that the person will have tremendous ego and will be getting his power from occultic resources and craft, and that is his connection to Satan and eventually being convinced in his heart that he has achieved God-hood.

James, I don't think you are aware that in Kabballah, a craft understanding dark sentences, there is a belief that the praticitioner, which in Jewish Kabballah must be a Jew, that they can control angels into carrying out their own agenda. I have done a lot of research into the Kaballah in the past. If you read back over Daniel 8:23-24-25, about the King of fierce countenance's use and practice of "craft" - what do you think it is talking about when it says "craft" ?

Biblewriter · May 10, 2014

Douggg said:
You have not referenced the gospels, agreed, but you have listed the biggest antagonists of the end times, who Jesus will have the two main ones - the beast and false prophet - cast into the lake of fire.

The point I am making is that you have approached the subject of the 5 main characters (in your opinion) as being different individuals.

Which that approach is erroneous concerning the little horn, the king of fierce countenance, the prince who shall come, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the beast (first beast of Revelation), as they are all the same person, and is the another that Jesus told Nicomdemus they, the Jews would accept coming in his own name. ....but you have no connection with your hypothesis of the Roman Leader major antagonist with the gospels and end times Jesus spoke about. There is no connection between the Roman beast you have described and with any person Jesus described in the gospels.

Also, what you have neglected among other things is that the person will have tremendous ego and will be getting his power from occultic resources and craft, and that is his connection to Satan and eventually being convinced in his heart that he has achieved God-hood.

James, I don't think you are aware that in Kabballah, a craft understanding dark sentences, there is a belief that the praticitioner, which in Jewish Kabballah must be a Jew, that they can control angels into carrying out their own agenda. I have done a lot of research into the Kaballah in the past. If you read back over Daniel 8:23-24-25, about the King of fierce countenance's use and practice of "craft" - what do you think it is talking about when it says "craft" ?

You are simply assuming that the great attacker that Jesus spoke of is "the Beast." But you cannot show even one scripture anywhere that ever says that "the Beast" will attack Judah. The only attacker that is named is "the Assyrian," who is also "the king of the north" and the "little horn" of Daniel 8. As this "little horn comes "out of one of" the four horns that resulted from the breakup of Alexander's kingdom, (Danel 8:9) This "little horn" cannt even possiby represent either the Roman ruler (the beast) of the Russian ruler (Gog) for Alexander's kingdom did not include Rome or any part of Russia.

Douggg · May 10, 2014

Biblewriter said:
You are simply assumong that the great attacker that Jesus spoke of is "the Beast."

Actually, I don't know what bible passage you are referring to in regards to an "the great attacker" that Jesus spoke of is "the Beast".

But you cannot show even one scripture anywhere that ever says that "the Beast" will attack Judah.

I have never said that the beast attacks Israel. the actual country over there - or Judah in your concept of the country over there.

The only attacker that is named is "the Assyrian," who is also "the king of the north" and the "little horn" of Daniel 8.

Where in Daniel 8 do you get that the little horn is the Assyrian? And where do you get that the little horn in Daniel "attacks" Israel in Daniel 8?

I have taken neither of those positions.

As this "little horn comes "out of one of" the four horns that resulted from the breakup of Alexander's kingdom, (Danel 8:9) This "little horn" cannt even possiby represent either the Roman ruler (the beast) of the Russian ruler (Gog) for Alexander's kingdom did not include Rome or any part of Russia.

James, Daniel 7, then Daniel 8, then Daniel 9 is about the Antichrist rise to becoming thought of by the Jews as their messiah. It is not about him attacking Israel in Daniel 8:9.

Daniel 8:9 is just telling where he grows strong from, in heading down to Israel - not to attack Israel, but to stave off the Gog/Magog pending invasion. It's where he will stage his army, in similitude like it says in Revelation that they gathered their armies together at Armageddon.

The little horn is the king of fierce countenance in Daniel 8:23, that stands up in the latter time of the kingdom of the transgressors - which is the EU, ten leader final form of the government over there. That he stands up is an idom for preparing for war, but it is not against Israel, but to stave off Gog/Magog allied with the Russians. He's the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6, the perceived hero of the hour.

The little horn will already be in power as the leader of the EU, and will stage and assemble his army in Greece, one of the break up kingdoms (Cassandra), and head down to Israel from there, but arrives after God supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog.

The arriving little horn Antichrist, nonetheless, a Jew and also descended from the Julio-Claudians will be perceived by the Jews (based on what they believe about the messiah fighting the battles of God in defending Israel) as their messiah - promised great King of Israel, Son of David. Having a supreme ego, he will fancy himself as such, and will oversee the commemorative reading on the temple mount of Moses Instructions to in essence confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant every 7 years (Deuteronomy 31:10-11).

So I don't where you are getting that I think the little horn is going to attack Israel.

An Assyrian does attack Israel - which is either part of the Gog/Magog invasion. Or another possibility is that when the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin in the middle part of the 7 years, attacks Israel and the Antichrist in particular to kill him - which you may want to look at God's re-action against the Antichrist when he goes into the temple and claims to be God in the flesh, Ezekiel 28:1-10.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. [The Mortally wounded head, James?]
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. [He finds himself in hell in Isaiah 14]

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

The Antichrist will be a Jew (and of the Julio-Claudians) from Europe. The Assyrians, whatever middleeastern group that is, would be strangers to him.

Biblewriter · May 11, 2014

Douggg said:
Actually, I don't know what bible passage you are referring to in regards to an "the great attacker" that Jesus spoke of is "the Beast".

I have never said that the beast attacks Israel. the actual country over there - or Judah in your concept of the country over there.

Where in Daniel 8 do you get that the little horn is the Assyrian? And where do you get that the little horn in Daniel "attacks" Israel in Daniel 8?

I have taken neither of those positions.

James, Daniel 7, then Daniel 8, then Daniel 9 is about the Antichrist rise to becoming thought of by the Jews as their messiah. It is not about him attacking Israel in Daniel 8:9.

Daniel 8:9 is just telling where he grows strong from, in heading down to Israel - not to attack Israel, but to stave off the Gog/Magog pending invasion. It's where he will stage his army, in similitude like it says in Revelation that they gathered their armies together at Armageddon.

The little horn is the king of fierce countenance in Daniel 8:23, that stands up in the latter time of the kingdom of the transgressors - which is the EU, ten leader final form of the government over there. That he stands up is an idom for preparing for war, but it is not against Israel, but to stave off Gog/Magog allied with the Russians. He's the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6, the perceived hero of the hour.

The little horn will already be in power as the leader of the EU, and will stage and assemble his army in Greece, one of the break up kingdoms (Cassandra), and head down to Israel from there, but arrives after God supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog.

The arriving little horn Antichrist, nonetheless, a Jew and also descended from the Julio-Claudians will be perceived by the Jews (based on what they believe about the messiah fighting the battles of God in defending Israel) as their messiah - promised great King of Israel, Son of David. Having a supreme ego, he will fancy himself as such, and will oversee the commemorative reading on the temple mount of Moses Instructions to in essence confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant every 7 years (Deuteronomy 31:10-11).

So I don't where you are getting that I think the little horn is going to attack Israel.

An Assyrian does attack Israel - which is either part of the Gog/Magog invasion. Or another possibility is that when the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin in the middle part of the 7 years, attacks Israel and the Antichrist in particular to kill him - which you may want to look at God's re-action against the Antichrist when he goes into the temple and claims to be God in the flesh, Ezekiel 28:1-10.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. [The Mortally wounded head, James?]
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. [He finds himself in hell in Isaiah 14]

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

The Antichrist will be a Jew (and of the Julio-Claudians) from Europe. The Assyrians, whatever middleeastern group that is, would be strangers to him.

There seems to be a miscommunication between us. I got the idea that you were saying that "the Beast" attacks Israel in the middle of the seventieth week.

What I am saying is that Daniel 7 and 8 are about two entirely different individuals. The little horn of Daniel 7 comes out of the fourth kingdom, which was unquestionably the Roman Empire.

But the little horn of Daniel 8 comes out of the Grecian empire of Alexander the great, as is particularly proved by Daniel 8:8-9:

"Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land."

This also clearly shows that this horn will attack "the glorious land," which cannot mean anything other than Israel, or more scripturally accurately, Judah.

Daniel 9:27 shows that this attack will come in the middle of the seventieth week. The attacker is not identified in that passage. BUt he is identfoed as "the king of the north" in Daniel 11:40. He comes at the same tome as "the king of the south," but he is the one that will "enter the Glorious Land." (Daniel 9:41)

In the parallel thread titled "The Neglected Individual in End Time prophecy I gave the reasons for concluding that "the Assyrian" and "the king of the north" represent the same end time individual, and also why this individual is the "little horn" of Daniel 8.

And no scripture anywhere associates any of these kings with Gog, either as coming with him of defending against him.

Douggg · May 11, 2014

Biblewriter said:
There seems to be a miscommunication between us. I got the idea that you were saying that "the Beast" attacks Israel in the middle of the seventieth week.

I have not said the Beast attacks Israel in the middle of the 70th week.

James, I have a completely different end times scenario than you have - so don't presume there is only a slight variations from your view.

My view is based on the Antichrist's rise and then his fall - from becoming the Anti-messiah, the illicit, promised King of Israel, son of David. And after his fall, he becomes the beast who will meet Jesus on the day of Jesus's return.

The Antichrist will already be in Israel from day 1 of the 70th week as their perceived illicit king... his EU army will also be occupying the middle east oil rich fields. There will not be any fighting on their part necessary as God will supernaturally destroy Gog/Magog right before they arrive. The Antichrist arrives there peaceably.

The Antichrist in the middle of the week, already having been enthroned as their king, will reveal himself as the man of sin - because being into the occult and relying upon craft for his success all along, will be convinced by Satan that he has achieved God-hood. He goes into the temple, operating at the time with the animal sacrifices and daily oblation, sits and shows that he is God in the flesh.

The Jews will be mortified and will impeach him as their king. Drawing his ire and anger. The rest of the world will be shocked as well. Which God's reaction (in Ezekiel 28:1-10) will be to bring strangers (which could be the Assyrian and his army) to kill him. The Jews, the 7 or 8 raised men leaders, will have to defend themselves against the Assyrian and his army who will be invading their land.

But the Antichrist will be killed. He finds himself in hell, mocked in Isaiah 14. Then in Isaiah 14:19-20 , because he is a Jew and God is totally disgusted with him, God casts him out of the grave likening him to the abominable branch, who destroys his land and his people (Israel and the Jews) by his connection to Satan and the occult.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

It is then, when he is cast out the grave, brought back to life, formerly the 7th king of the Roman empire, in collusion with Satan, receives the spirit of the beast coming out of the bottomless pit - which is Nimrod's disembodied spirit - he beomes the eight king, the beast.

He will persecute the Jews, who after seeing their huge error in embracing the little horn coming out of EU, thinking that he was their messiah, will turn to Jesus at that time. His persecution though is not be by him invading Israel in Daniel 8:9, because he and his army will already be occupying the middle east and Israel.

It is for the second half of the seven years, that the Antichrist is referred to as the beast, because of his being possessed. The world will believe his coming back alive as confirmation that he is God in flesh, having overcome death - it is the strong delusion that God sends, when God brings him back to life to prosecute him right away into the lake of fire.

What I am saying is that Daniel 7 and 8 are about two entirely different individuals. The little horn of Daniel 7 comes out of the fourth kingdom, which was unquestionably the Roman Empire.

I get that much, James. But they are not two different individuals. The little horn in both chapters is the same person. In Daniel 7, it is about his first emergence as a political figure in the EU, once that ten leader government develops over there.

In Daniel 8, is after he has been the leader of the EU (Daniel 7) for a while. Daniel 8:23 and 8:9 is about his standing up, getting ready to come down to Israel with a great army. You are presuming that it is to attack Israel. But that is wrong. He is coming as the rider on the white horse, the hero of the day. That's why the Jews will think that he is their messiah (the Anti-messiah) and will embrace him as the promised King of Israel, son of David.

But the little horn of Daniel 8 comes out of the Grecian empire of Alexander the great, as is particularly proved by Daniel 8:8-9:

"Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land."

You have presumed wrong in thinking that is where the little horn emerges from. And to attack Israel. It is only talking about where he will be coming from with strength. The little horn emerges back in Daniel 7.

Daniel 8 is after he has been the ruler of the EU, over the ten kings, for a while.

This also clearly shows that this horn will attack "the glorious land," which cannot mean anything other than Israel, or more scripturally accurately, Judah.

No, it clearly shows that you presume he is coming to attack the glorious land. It is definitely Israel. But he is not coming to attack Israel - but to stave off Gog/Magog militarily empowered by their ally Russia - which you should be able to see the pre-makings of that conflict between the EU and the Russians right now over what is going on in the Ukraine.

Daniel 9:27 shows that this attack will come in the middle of the seventieth week. The attacker is not identified in that passage. BUt he is identfoed as "the king of the north" in Daniel 11:40. He comes at the same tome as "the king of the south," but he is the one that will "enter the Glorious Land." (Daniel 9:41)

No, it doesn't. In Daniel 9:27, there is no mention of any attack. It is only that the prince who shall come violates the covenant which was confirmed for 7 years - which he will oversee the commemorative reading of Moses's law, the every 7 years requirement - acting in the role of being Israel messiah.

The battles in Daniel 11, are near the end of the seven years, after the Antichrist has entered the beast stage of his career. The Antichrist is not the king of the north in the latter verses in Daniel 11, but King of the West which is the end times Roman Empire.

In the parallel thread titled "The Neglected Individual in End Time prophecy I gave the reasons for concluding that "the Assyrian" and "the king of the north" represent the same end time individual, and also why this individual is the "little horn" of Daniel 8.

Well, you start out with a misunderstood premise about the Antichrist - so it would take a book on my part just to dissect your scenario.

The king of the north designation and king of the south, and kings of the east - in Daniel 11:40-45 are not the same connotation at the Seleucid s and the Ptolemy's of the historic parts of Daniel 11.

In the end times, the king of the north, the south, the east, and west - are global leaders over the four quardrants of the compass. All of the nations of the world, their armies brought into the middle east, before the peeling away of the cosmos and the world seeing Jesus in heaven before the throne of God, sickle in hand, to carry out judgment.

And no scripture anywhere associates any of these kings with Gog, either as coming with him of defending against him.

I agree with that. Gog/Magog is immediately before the 7 years. The Antichrist will arrive in Israel, as the rider on the white horse, immediately after, with his EU army to occupy all of the middle east oil fields, and he himself will be embraced by the Jews as their King messiah.

The 7 years are nestled (not written in the text) between Ezekiel 39:16 and 17. Ezekiel 39:17 is the aftermath at the end of the 7 years of the Armagddon destruction, and Jesus having return to this earth, setting his glory among the heathen. Take another look at it, James.

Biblewriter · May 11, 2014

Douggg said:
I have not said the Beast attacks Israel in the middle of the 70th week.

James, I have a completely different end times scenario than you have - so don't presume there is only a slight variations from your view.

My view is based on the Antichrist's rise and then his fall - from becoming the Anti-messiah, the illicit, promised King of Israel, son of David. And after his fall, he becomes the beast who will meet Jesus on the day of Jesus's return.

The Antichrist will already be in Israel from day 1 of the 70th week as their perceived illicit king... his EU army will also be occupying the middle east oil rich fields. There will not be any fighting on their part necessary as God will supernaturally destroy Gog/Magog right before they arrive. The Antichrist arrives there peaceably.

The Antichrist in the middle of the week, already having been enthroned as their king, will reveal himself as the man of sin - because being into the occult and relying upon craft for his success all along, will be convinced by Satan that he has achieved God-hood. He goes into the temple, operating at the time with the animal sacrifices and daily oblation, sits and shows that he is God in the flesh.

The Jews will be mortified and will impeach him as their king. Drawing his ire and anger. The rest of the world will be shocked as well. Which God's reaction (in Ezekiel 28:1-10) will be to bring strangers (which could be the Assyrian and his army) to kill him. The Jews, the 7 or 8 raised men leaders, will have to defend themselves against the Assyrian and his army who will be invading their land.

But the Antichrist will be killed. He finds himself in hell, mocked in Isaiah 14. Then in Isaiah 14:19-20 , because he is a Jew and God is totally disgusted with him, God casts him out of the grave likening him to the abominable branch, who destroys his land and his people (Israel and the Jews) by his connection to Satan and the occult.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

It is then, when he is cast out the grave, brought back to life, formerly the 7th king of the Roman empire, in collusion with Satan, receives the spirit of the beast coming out of the bottomless pit - which is Nimrod's disembodied spirit - he beomes the eight king, the beast.

He will persecute the Jews, who after seeing their huge error in embracing the little horn coming out of EU, thinking that he was their messiah, will turn to Jesus at that time. His persecution though is not be by him invading Israel in Daniel 8:9, because he and his army will already be occupying the middle east and Israel.

It is for the second half of the seven years, that the Antichrist is referred to as the beast, because of his being possessed. The world will believe his coming back alive as confirmation that he is God in flesh, having overcome death - it is the strong delusion that God sends, when God brings him back to life to prosecute him right away into the lake of fire.
I get that much, James. But they are not two different individuals. The little horn in both chapters is the same person. In Daniel 7, it is about his first emergence as a political figure in the EU, once that ten leader government develops over there.

In Daniel 8, is after he has been the leader of the EU (Daniel 7) for a while. Daniel 8:23 and 8:9 is about his standing up, getting ready to come down to Israel with a great army. You are presuming that it is to attack Israel. But that is wrong. He is coming as the rider on the white horse, the hero of the day. That's why the Jews will think that he is their messiah (the Anti-messiah) and will embrace him as the promised King of Israel, son of David.

You have presumed wrong in thinking that is where the little horn emerges from. And to attack Israel. It is only talking about where he will be coming from with strength. The little horn emerges back in Daniel 7.

Daniel 8 is after he has been the ruler of the EU, over the ten kings, for a while.

No, it clearly shows that you presume he is coming to attack the glorious land. It is definitely Israel. But he is not coming to attack Israel - but to stave off Gog/Magog militarily empowered by their ally Russia - which you should be able to see the pre-makings of that conflict between the EU and the Russians right now over what is going on in the Ukraine.
No, it doesn't. In Daniel 9:27, there is no mention of any attack. It is only that the prince who shall come violates the covenant which was confirmed for 7 years - which he will oversee the commemorative reading of Moses's law, the every 7 years requirement - acting in the role of being Israel messiah.

The battles in Daniel 11, are near the end of the seven years, after the Antichrist has entered the beast stage of his career. The Antichrist is not the king of the north in the latter verses in Daniel 11, but King of the West which is the end times Roman Empire.

Well, you start out with a misunderstood premise about the Antichrist - so it would take a book on my part just to dissect your scenario.

The king of the north designation and king of the south, and kings of the east - in Daniel 11:40-45 are not the same connotation at the Seleucid s and the Ptolemy's of the historic parts of Daniel 11.

In the end times, the king of the north, the south, the east, and west - are global leaders over the four quardrants of the compass. All of the nations of the world, their armies brought into the middle east, before the peeling away of the cosmos and the world seeing Jesus in heaven before the throne of God, sickle in hand, to carry out judgment.

I agree with that. Gog/Magog is immediately before the 7 years. The Antichrist will arrive in Israel, as the rider on the white horse, immediately after, with his EU army to occupy all of the middle east oil fields, and he himself will be embraced by the Jews as their King messiah.

The 7 years are nestled (not written in the text) between Ezekiel 39:16 and 17. Ezekiel 39:17 is the aftermath at the end of the 7 years of the Armagddon destruction, and Jesus having return to this earth, setting his glory among the heathen. Take another look at it, James.

I gave you the scriptural details that clearly show that the little horn of Daniel 7 is the end time ruler of Rome. And I gave you the scriptural detail that conclusively proves that the little horn of Daniel 8 cannot even possibly be the end tome leader of Rome.

As for the rest, I am aware that your end time scenario is totally different from mine. That is because yours is based on interpretations of the meanings of symbolic statements, and mine is based on careful examination of the fine details of the wording of expressly stated prophecies.

Interplanner · May 11, 2014

BW, did you know everyone claims to have watertight reasons? You don't need to repeat that each time as though you were unique!

Biblewriter · May 11, 2014

Interplanner said:
BW, did you know everyone claims to have watertight reasons? You don't need to repeat that each time as though you were unique!

The difference is that my conclusions are based upon scriptures that clearly state coming events, while the opposing conclusions are based upon interpretations of the meanings of scriptures.

Douggg · May 12, 2014

Biblewriter said:
I gave you the scriptural details that clearly show that the little horn of Daniel 7 is the end time ruler of Rome. And I gave you the scriptural detail that conclusively proves that the little horn of Daniel 8 cannot even possibly be the end tome leader of Rome.

No, you did not. You gave your opinion on what a few verses in Daniel's vision mean, but not synchronized with the angel's explanation afterward - which will show that your opinion of the vision is in error.

Start by going to the angel's explanation of Daniel's vision, Daniel 8:23 and follow the colors as the verses are synchronized.

If you want to prove your point, begin by identifying the kingdom of the transgressors.

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Right now, the ten kings (leaders) of the EU have not formulated. The EU began as the EEC and has grown and gone through changes since it's inception.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

In Ezekiel 28:1-10,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

In 2thessalonians2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In Daniel 11:
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

In Revelation 13:

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

As for the rest, I am aware that your end time scenario is totally different from mine. That is because yours is based on interpretations of the meanings of symbolic statements, and mine is based on careful examination of the fine details of the wording of expressly stated prophecies.

No! I have a different end times scenario, because I understand who the messiah is prophesied as the King of Israel, Son of David. And that the Anti-messiah is the end times, illicit version of the messiah. His rise and then his fall from it.

And because in my scenario the major end times prophecies in both the old testament and new testament, regarding that illicit version of the messiah, are synchronized! By what is written in the text, as I have provided above in color coded highlights linking the synchronized text of the old and new testament prophecies together. Precept upon Precept.

You haven't done that. You have a scenario with a faulty foundation - of the false prophet, the second beast, as being the Anti-messiah, which being a prophet is not even the fundamental concept of the messiah. He has to be a king.

Bible2 · May 13, 2014

Douggg said in post 71:

Right now, the ten kings (leaders) of the EU have not formulated.

Note that the 10 kings could include some leaders outside of the EU. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Douggg said in post 71:

In Ezekiel 28:1-10,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

In 2thessalonians2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In Daniel 11:
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

In Revelation 13:

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Great connections (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

For if Ezekiel 28:2 has application to future events because of its similarity to the never-fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then the prince of Tyre could be the future human ruler commonly called the Antichrist (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-18). If that's the case, then the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12) could be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon), who will empower the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Lucifer, before his fall and man's fall, could have been placed as a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

There's a curious correlation between the prince and the king of Tyre on the one hand (Ezekiel 28), and the use of the name Hiram in the mystical teachings of a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation. For Hiram was the name of the human king of Tyre at the time of the building of King Solomon's temple (1 Kings 5). Also, Hiram was the name of another person from Tyre, the human master workman who helped Solomon build the temple (1 Kings 7:13-14). If the king and the prince of Tyre addressed in Ezekiel 28 are Lucifer and the Antichrist, then the name Hiram would be a perfect code name (not the actual name) for both of them, a name by which their identity within the Gnostic Luciferian teachings of the worldwide secret society could be kept secret from all but its highest-level initiates. Just as the human workman named Hiram built a temple to God in which all the world was to worship (1 Kings 8:41-43), so the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), when the Antichrist gains power over the earth (Revelation 13:7).

The Antichrist's future Luciferian rule over the earth could be pictured by the most common, publicly known symbol for the worldwide secret society, in which a drafting/measuring compass, an instrument shaped like the two legs of an "A" (as in "Antichrist"), is sometimes shown standing on top of a globe of the earth. And beneath, as in support of the "A" is a drafting/measuring square, an instrument shaped like an "L" (as in "Lucifer"). Also, found within the "L" is the letter "G", which could ultimately stand for the (false) "Gnosis" (knowledge) of Gnosticism (cf. the original Greek of 1 Timothy 6:20b), which the secret society (mistakenly) thinks can be found in Lucifer. The Antichrist will teach the ancient Gnostic lie that YHWH God is evil (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and the ancient Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

--

Ultimately, the power behind the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). And there could also be a secret cabal of human world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to deceive the world into the open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Douggg said in post 71:

I have a different end times scenario, because I understand who the messiah is prophesied as the King of Israel, Son of David. And that the Anti-messiah is the end times, illicit version of the messiah.

"Anti"-Messiah/Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Note that nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a), promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

--

That is, in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Keachian · May 13, 2014

Searching for that which already came in King Jesus, why do you hate him so?

Nanopants · May 13, 2014

One has to wonder why some of the Jews were so eager to paint Jesus as casting out demons by Beelzebub... here something that was mentioned by Daniel comes to mind, that only those with wisdom will understand (12:10).

Biblewriter · May 13, 2014

Douggg said:
No, you did not. You gave your opinion on what a few verses in Daniel's vision mean, but not synchronized with the angel's explanation afterward - which will show that your opinion of the vision is in error.

Start by going to the angel's explanation of Daniel's vision, Daniel 8:23 and follow the colors as the verses are synchronized.

If you want to prove your point, begin by identifying the kingdom of the transgressors.

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Right now, the ten kings (leaders) of the EU have not formulated. The EU began as the EEC and has grown and gone through changes since it's inception.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

In Ezekiel 28:1-10,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

In 2thessalonians2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In Daniel 11:
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

In Revelation 13:

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

No! I have a different end times scenario, because I understand who the messiah is prophesied as the King of Israel, Son of David. And that the Anti-messiah is the end times, illicit version of the messiah. His rise and then his fall from it.

And because in my scenario the major end times prophecies in both the old testament and new testament, regarding that illicit version of the messiah, are synchronized! By what is written in the text, as I have provided above in color coded highlights linking the synchronized text of the old and new testament prophecies together. Precept upon Precept.

You haven't done that. You have a scenario with a faulty foundation - of the false prophet, the second beast, as being the Anti-messiah, which being a prophet is not even the fundamental concept of the messiah. He has to be a king.

You are trying to "line up" various prophecies by assuming that because the same thing is said in more than one prophecy, they must be about the same individual.

But in doing so, you are ignoring the explicit statements in these prophecies that conclusively prove they cannot be about the same individual.

In Daniel 7, we are explicitly told that "Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth." (Daniel 7:17) Then, in verse 19- 21 the ten horns and then the little horn come up on "the fourth beast." There can be zero doubt that the fourth great kingdom that came up after the days of Daniel was the Roman Empire. So this beast must, orf necessity, represent the Roman Empire.

But in Daniel 8, we are just as explicitly told that "the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power." (Daniel 8:21-2) But the little horn in this chapter came "out of one of" the four horns. (see verse 9) Since Alexander's kingdom did not include Rome or any part of Russia, this conclusively proves that the little horn of chapter 8 cannot represent the same end time individual. This is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of express statements of scripture.

Biblewriter · May 14, 2014

Douggg said:
James, show evidence in Revelation of the two tribe southern kingdom of Judah.

I missed this one earlier.

The Revelation is not mainly about the middle east, it is mainly about Europe. Most of its scenes take place in Europe, not the middle east. So it does not go into detail about who will be in the land now called Israel at that time. To know the answer to this question we have to go the the very many scriptures that specifically deal with that land and its people.

Biblewriter · May 18, 2014

Someone posted:

"He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed."

theWaris1 said:
It's my opinion that this has already happened though I don't hold a preterist view of Daniel or all of revelations.

I believe there is much confusion over modern Israel and Judah of old and they not necessarily one in the same people.

Where and how do you see this as having been fulfilled?

Douggg · May 19, 2014

Biblewriter said:
You are trying to "line up" various prophecies by assuming that because the same thing is said in more than one prophecy, they must be about the same individual.

But in doing so, you are ignoring the explicit statements in these prophecies that conclusively prove they cannot be about the same individual.

I am not ignoring an single word in the verses, James. It is the same individual. You are not understanding Daniel 8:9 correctly.

In Daniel 7, we are explicitly told that "Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth." (Daniel 7:17) Then, in verse 19- 21 the ten horns and then the little horn come up on "the fourth beast." There can be zero doubt that the fourth great kingdom that came up after the days of Daniel was the Roman Empire. So this beast must, orf necessity, represent the Roman Empire.

Yes, the fourth empire is the Roman Empire. And in the end times the Roman Empire of the clay and iron of Daniel 2, some parts of it strong, some parts of it weak, is the EU. The little horn will emerge out of the EU.
I don't know exactly what country. It could be one of the Balkan countries like Romania or Macedonia, if I were to guess.

The little horn will become the leader of the EU, after the ten ruler government over there is formed. It does not exist now. Those ten rulers are the same ten toes in Daniel 2. And the same ten kings in Revelation 17.

In Daniel 7, he emerges. In Daniel 8:23, it is after he has been the leader of the EU for awhile, and "stands up" out of that ten leader kingdom. Daniel 8:9 is just identifying location where he will stage his army and head down to Israel. Daniel 8:9 is not saying that he will be a king of one of the breakup kingdoms - which are long gone to history.

But in Daniel 8, we are just as explicitly told that "the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power." (Daniel 8:21-2) But the little horn in this chapter came "out of one of" the four horns. (see verse 9) Since Alexander's kingdom did not include Rome or any part of Russia, this conclusively proves that the little horn of chapter 8 cannot represent the same end time individual. This is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of express statements of scripture.

The Ram is the Persian/Medes. The goat is the Greek empire. The large horn is Alexander. The four horns coming after are the four breakup kingdoms. Okay, I don't think you will disagree with any of that.

In Daniel 8:9, it is not saying that the little horn is a king of one the breakup kingdoms. It is saying that's where he waxes strong from. It is identifying a location. Greece happens to be the eastern frontier of the EU. It is also the territory of one of the four breakup kingdoms - that of Cassandra. That breakup kingdom also included what is today the country of Macedonia. In Greece, there is a region of Greece also called Macedonia.

That's why I say the Antichrist may come out of the country of Macedonia, although that is not what Daniel 8:9 is about. It is giving the location where the little horn will stage his army and head down to Israel.

The little horn IN THE EXPLANATION BY THE ANGEL in Daniel 8:23 refers to him as the king of fierce countenance. And I made all those synchronized connections with the other verses in the bible regarding his understanding dark sentences, his ending by being defeated by Jesus, etc.

And there is one I left out. In Daniel 7, the little horn is more stout than the other ten kings. That ties to his appearance of having a fierce countenance in Daniel 8:23.

I have asked you what is the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23 ?
Please give a response. The temple will be desolated by reason of transgression.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

In Revelation 17, the ten kings give their kingdom to the beast, which the beast enacts the desolation. The transgression of desolation, is the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation, an image of the beast.

The little horn in Daniel 8 will ultimately become the beast. Daniel 7, then Daniel 8, then Daniel 9 is the Antichrist's rise to becoming the illicit King of Israel, Son of David.

Then when he reveals that he is the man of sin, deeply into the occult, understanding dark sentences, practicing craft for his success, until being convinced in his heart that he has obtained God-hood.... he falls from that place of being thought of as the King of Israel messiah.

And ultimately ends up as the beast in Revelation.

It's all the same person, James, but at different stages of his career.

btw, I am not saying Russia, Gog or Magog is anywhere in Daniel 8. What I am saying is that when the little horn stands up in Daniel 8:23, it will be to stave of Gog/Magog, by bringing his army into the region (Israel). It is from a collection of other scriptures, and understanding of the requirement for the Jewish messiah, I have come to that conclusion. There is nothing in the bible that makes a direct statement in that regard.

Douggg · May 19, 2014

Biblewriter said:
I missed this one earlier.

The Revelation is not mainly about the middle east, it is mainly about Europe. Most of its scenes take place in Europe, not the middle east. So it does not go into detail about who will be in the land now called Israel at that time. To know the answer to this question we have to go the the very many scriptures that specifically deal with that land and its people.

James, what happened to Revelation 12 in your bible? The woman is the twelve tribes. She will flee into the wilderness to avoid the flood sent out by Satan to destroy her, after he has been cast down with a time, times, and half time left. It is not Judah. It the unified nation of Israel, all twelve tribes, in Revelation 12.

Biblewriter · May 19, 2014

Douggg said:
I am not ignoring an single word in the verses, James. It is the same individual. You are not understanding Daniel 8:9 correctly.
Yes, the fourth empire is the Roman Empire. And in the end times the Roman Empire of the clay and iron of Daniel 2, some parts of it strong, some parts of it weak, is the EU. The little horn will emerge out of the EU.
I don't know exactly what country. It could be one of the Balkan countries like Romania or Macedonia, if I were to guess.

The little horn will become the leader of the EU, after the ten ruler government over there is formed. It does not exist now. Those ten rulers are the same ten toes in Daniel 2. And the same ten kings in Revelation 17.

In Daniel 7, he emerges. In Daniel 8:23, it is after he has been the leader of the EU for awhile, and "stands up" out of that ten leader kingdom. Daniel 8:9 is just identifying location where he will stage his army and head down to Israel. Daniel 8:9 is not saying that he will be a king of one of the breakup kingdoms - which are long gone to history.

The Ram is the Persian/Medes. The goat is the Greek empire. The large horn is Alexander. The four horns coming after are the four breakup kingdoms. Okay, I don't think you will disagree with any of that.

In Daniel 8:9, it is not saying that the little horn is a king of one the breakup kingdoms. It is saying that's where he waxes strong from. It is identifying a location. Greece happens to be the eastern frontier of the EU. It is also the territory of one of the four breakup kingdoms - that of Cassandra. That breakup kingdom also included what is today the country of Macedonia. In Greece, there is a region of Greece also called Macedonia.

That's why I say the Antichrist may come out of the country of Macedonia, although that is not what Daniel 8:9 is about. It is giving the location where the little horn will stage his army and head down to Israel.

The little horn IN THE EXPLANATION BY THE ANGEL in Daniel 8:23 refers to him as the king of fierce countenance. And I made all those synchronized connections with the other verses in the bible regarding his understanding dark sentences, his ending by being defeated by Jesus, etc.

And there is one I left out. In Daniel 7, the little horn is more stout than the other ten kings. That ties to his appearance of having a fierce countenance in Daniel 8:23.

I have asked you what is the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23 ?
Please give a response. The temple will be desolated by reason of transgression.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

In Revelation 17, the ten kings give their kingdom to the beast, which the beast enacts the desolation. The transgression of desolation, is the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation, an image of the beast.

The little horn in Daniel 8 will ultimately become the beast. Daniel 7, then Daniel 8, then Daniel 9 is the Antichrist's rise to becoming the illicit King of Israel, Son of David.

Then when he reveals that he is the man of sin, deeply into the occult, understanding dark sentences, practicing craft for his success, until being convinced in his heart that he has obtained God-hood.... he falls from that place of being thought of as the King of Israel messiah.

And ultimately ends up as the beast in Revelation.

It's all the same person, James, but at different stages of his career.

btw, I am not saying Russia, Gog or Magog is anywhere in Daniel 8. What I am saying is that when the little horn stands up in Daniel 8:23, it will be to stave of Gog/Magog, by bringing his army into the region (Israel). It is from a collection of other scriptures, and understanding of the requirement for the Jewish messiah, I have come to that conclusion. There is nothing in the bible that makes a direct statement in that regard.

If you read the OP of the current thread, "The Timing of Ezekiel 38 and 39," you will see that the Bible indeed makes no less that five direct statements that prove that the Gog/Magog attack cannot be before Daniel's seventieth week.

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Senior Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Senior Member

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