Why worship?

Steeno7

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If two things have the same properties, they are not necessarily the same entity. You and I share a carbon-based biochemistry - are we one being? No. Likewise, why can there be only one being with underlings who he's made, sustained, and offered eternal life to?

Consider my hypothetical being. If there's one, there can be two. Two beings, each with underlings they've made, sustained, and offered eternal life to. Do we now have a duotheism?

Indeed, what of a being who you only thought met those properties, but in reality was a charlatan? Would you worship it then?

You're not even following your own thinking through to its logical conclusion. You have created an imaginary creature who does what only God can do, and yet you want to insist your imaginary creature is not God. That will only work in the imaginary world you have created in your own mind.

It's pointless, really.
 
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DennisTate

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Simple question - why should I worship God?

A near death experiencer gave one of the best explanations for this that I have ever read.

.near-death.com/andreason.html#a12

How does one do spiritual warfare? celebration. Why? Because celebration is the very opposite to depression which is what dark energies want us to fall into so they can tighten their grip on us.

Dark energies do not want us to celebrate and rejoice in the fact that beyond any truth … God is Love and God's Love has already won and achieved victory over any challenge that might come against us. It is up to us to open ourselves up and receive God's Love … All we must do is simply … believe!

The dark forces of challenging energy come to steal our Joy! The reason for this is because misery Loves company! Ever notice that?

People who are in the habit of being down adore it when others come and join them in their destructive pity party. Well, these "sad parties" are for the most part attended by darkened energies. Because dark energy is joyless, it wants us to become the same! However, never forget … the Joy of the Lord is our Strength!
 
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Wiccan_Child

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You're not even following your own thinking through to its logical conclusion. You have created an imaginary creature who does what only God can do, and yet you want to insist your imaginary creature is not God. That will only work in the imaginary world you have created in your own mind.

It's pointless, really.
Emphasis mine. It is exactly this assertion that I dispute. I dispute that only God can satisfy all three criteria. Obviously if only God can meet the criteria, then anyone or anything which meets the criteria is therefore God. But that's a big 'if', and I'm not convinced it's true.

Now, you could define 'God' to mean 'any being that meets all three criteria', but that seems ham-handed at best. You could also say 'only God can meet the criteria', in which case the onus is on you to show that's the case.

But look at that, we're making progress!
 
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oi_antz

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Pretty much. I'll accept that there are activities equivalent to building temples or singing praises, but to me that sort of thing is what worship is.
I would say these are acts that usually demonstrate someone who is acting in worship. But worship must be more than performing these three things. Did Jesus build any temples, sing praises or praise His name? Did Jesus therefore worship God because He did these things, or are these things a result of His living in worship?
It seems like needless hand-wringing when people start defining these terms to mean anything and everything. I was talking to a Christian friend just yesterday, and he said he believed that everyone had a god - except he was defining 'god' to mean 'the thing you hold highest'. To me, that's not at all what the word 'god' means. Gods are fundamentally concious, external, spirit-based beings, typically of unimaginable power and knowledge. That is what I think of when I hear the word 'god', and I'd wager that's what everyone else in the Anglophonic world thinks (or even a specific instance of such a being - Yahweh, Allah, etc).
Some gods can be imaginary though. Your understanding of the word seems to contradict Jesus' understanding of the word, unless you think that money is a "fundamentally concious, external, spirit-based beings, typically of unimaginable power and knowledge" (Matthew 6:24).
So it also seems like hand-wringing to define 'worship' to mean 'holding something as highest'. Because then, under these broad definitions, we end up saying things like "I worship God, inasmuch as photography is the main thing in my life". To me, the two are completely different.

So ultimately this thread is about what I consider to be worship. It never occurred to me that people might consider 'worship' so broadly (and, therefore, rob it of all utility). You're free to do so, of course, but it renders conversation moot.
I actually wanted to encourage you to understand the question you are asking, but if you don't want to, then I might indeed consider the conversation moot.
Usually. The scientist in me says "Ah, but what if they're doing it to, say, scam money or gain social clout?", in which case no, I don't think they would be worshipping God. So perhaps it's all about intent - they build temples and sing praises with the intent that this would be worship.
Then is this what Jesus is saying in Matthew 6:24?
No, it is a serious question. Is there no harm that comes from not worshipping God, or worshipping someone/something other than Him? Is there no benefit to doing it? I don't actually know the answers to this question, which is why I asked it on this thread. I do think that sometimes there is harm from worshipping someone other than Him. In fact, I think that every problem in the world would be solved if everyone did worship Him at all times. Which is a fantasy. It is every Christian's fantasy of heaven.
 
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workmx

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Only Christians, and the non-Christian OP, can post in EC threads.

Then why was I directed here from the Apologetics area?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7534063/

Dark_Lite said:
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Since there seems to be some confusion regarding this matter, let it be known that this forum is a Christians-only forum. Both the Theology and Edification sections (This forum is under Theology) are Christians-only sections. This forum is not for general apologetics debate. It is for exploration of apologetics from a Christian standpoint.

Non-Christians are not allowed to post here. If you are a non-Christian and are interested in discussing Christianity, please visit one of the following forums. Be sure to read the forum-specific rules for each of those forums, as they are not straight-up debate either.

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Wiccan_Child

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Then why was I directed here from the Apologetics area?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7534063/
In Apologetics, only Christians can post. In Exploring Christianity, only Christians and a single non-Christian (the OP) can post in any given thread.

The whole point of EC is for non-Christians to make threads posing questions to Christians about Christianity. Any Christian can post in an EC thread, but the only non-Christian who can post in an EC thread is the one who made it - the OP.

There are two sticky threads right at the top of EC, both saying the same thing:

The Exploring Christianity forum is a place where non-Christians can come and ask Christians about their faith. Non Christians are welcome here. :)

HOWEVER,

This is NOT a debate forum.

Here is how the forum works: A Non-Christian member may start a thread. Only Christians can respond to the the thread. The person who started the thread CAN ask follow-up questions.

If you are not a Christian, do not post in an existing thread. Start your own.

If you are a Christian, please do not start threads here.

If you have had a thread or post removed for review and don't know why, please re-read the above. And please, be patient during the review process. You WILL hear something eventually.

Thank you!!!

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Wiccan_Child

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I certainly have no interest in worshiping wiccan.
'Wiccan' as a proper noun refers to the Marvel superhero:

YA_Wiccan.png


What you probably mean is "I certainly have no interest in worshipping the Wiccan gods", to which my response would be - why not? I certainly have no interest in proselytising paganism, but what compels you to worship the Christian god over the pagan ones?
 
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DennisTate

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'Wiccan' as a proper noun refers to the Marvel superhero:

YA_Wiccan.png


What you probably mean is "I certainly have no interest in worshipping the Wiccan gods", to which my response would be - why not? I certainly have no interest in proselytising paganism, but what compels you to worship the Christian god over the pagan ones?

The Dr. Masaru Emoto research implies that "gratefulness", "love" and certain types of music have a truly positive effect on water…… even at the subatomic level….. and the belief pattern of the person putting out gratefulness or love doesn't seem to matter much.


masaru emoto
Observe the crystal of frozen water after showing
letters to water
Showing pictures to water
Playing music to water
Praying to water
In all of these experiments, distilled water for hospital usage produced by the same company was used. Since it is distilled twice, it can be said that it is pure water.

The result was that we always observed beautiful crystals after giving good words, playing good music, and showing, playing, or offering pure prayer to water. On the other hand, we observed disfigured crystals in the opposite situation. Moreover, we never observed identical crystals.
I published these results as photograph collections: “Messages from Water 1” (1999), “Messages from Water 2” (2002), “Messages from Water 3” (2004), and “Messages from Water 4” (2008). (All of them are published from Hado Kyoiku-Sha.)
Then in November 2001, “Water Knows the Answer” (Sunmark Publishing) was published not as a photograph collection but as explanatory book. Many of you may know that these books have become bestseller not only in Japan but also rather in overseas.
It is “beauty” if I were asked about the selection criteria of crystals.

This world is filled with wonders and mysteries that get more incomprehensible if we try to think of a reason. In a familiar situation, for example, why do dogs exist and why do cats exist? Why do mice exist and why do snakes exist? Why are there cherry blossom trees and why are there willow trees? What is a human being in the first place? As such, there are so many incomprehensible things that we cannot understand at all.

I read "Heaven is for Real" about a month ago. The book is amazing. Little Colton Burpo is an exceptionally good witness in my opinion that Rabbi Jesus/ Yeshua must have accomplished something truly significant with his life while he was human or it would seem that he would not be able to meet with so many people who have a brush with death.


Heaven Is for Real | #1 New York Times Bestseller & Major Motion Picture
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I would say these are acts that usually demonstrate someone who is acting in worship. But worship must be more than performing these three things. Did Jesus build any temples, sing praises or praise His name? Did Jesus therefore worship God because He did these things, or are these things a result of His living in worship?
I have no idea. I'd be surprised if Jesus actually worshipped God, because he is God - does God worship himself? Is that even possible?

Some gods can be imaginary though.
True, but that doesn't stop Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus from worshipping them.

Your understanding of the word seems to contradict Jesus' understanding of the word, unless you think that money is a "fundamentally concious, external, spirit-based beings, typically of unimaginable power and knowledge" (Matthew 6:24).
Jesus is entitled to his definition of 'worship' and 'god, just as I'm entitled to mine. I'm not interested in Jesus' definition - as I've tried to explain, I'm interested in mine.

The core of my question is: if I were to be convinced that the Christian God exists, that alone wouldn't make me want to worship him. If I were truly convinced he existed, I would be no more inclined to get on my knees, sing his praises, build temples, go to church on Sundays, proselytise to others, etc. So, this thread is for others to explain to me why I should do those things. Perhaps believing in him indwells a person with an urge to do those things, perhaps it is doing those things that provides a person with proof of his existence, who knows.

(A separate, but related, opinion of mine is that I would be disinclined to worship him (read: build temples, sing praises, etc), given his actions in the OT. God killed the firstborn of Egypt, I deem that wicked, so I'm disinclined to sing praises to a wicked being. But that's a discussion for a separate time, perhaps)

I actually wanted to encourage you to understand the question you are asking, but if you don't want to, then I might indeed consider the conversation moot.
I'm all for understanding the question I'm asking, but it seems people are using different definitions and coming up with all sorts of irrelevant answers.

Then is this what Jesus is saying in Matthew 6:24?
I see Matthew 6:24 as saying "You can't have two masters" - you can't live for God if you're living for money. That seems to be a naive oversimplification, but there you go.

No, it is a serious question. Is there no harm that comes from not worshipping God, or worshipping someone/something other than Him?
Depending on the situation, the answer could be yes, no, or maybe.

Religious worship has a nasty tendency to ferment literalism, fundamentalism, and extremism, which is a negative side-effect of worshipping God. It can also foster charity and goodwill, which would be a positive effect.

'Worship', as you understand it, could be either good, bad, or neutral. If you 'worship' peace or medicine or science, good things follow. If you 'worship' money or possessions or power, bad things may follow.

So, it depends.

Is there no benefit to doing it? I don't actually know the answers to this question, which is why I asked it on this thread. I do think that sometimes there is harm from worshipping someone other than Him. In fact, I think that every problem in the world would be solved if everyone did worship Him at all times. Which is a fantasy. It is every Christian's fantasy of heaven.
I think many problems in this world come from people being too hung-up on worshipping him. It is God's worshippers who rather pray than bring their kids to a doctor, who want to replace science and medicine with Creationism, who preach 'abstinence only', who encourage the prejudice, expulsion, oppression, and even murder of others just because they're gay, or brown-skinned, or non-Christian.

I am not convinced that worshipping God is always such a good thing. Even if these people are misinterpreting text X, or aren't following the true message of Christ, or whatever, it's undeniable that they are 'worshipping' God - they are holding God as highest, are they not?
 
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golgotha61

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Simple question - why should I worship God?

If we allow Jesus to inform us as to what worship should be, I think your question will be answered. John 4:24 quotes Christ as saying that in order to worship God we must worship Him in spirit and truth. One who is in the spiritual and theological position that you are in cannot worship God according to Christ's description. And any attempt would be hypocritical on your part.

So, until you submit to God's authority and will, you should not only refrain from attempting to worship Him, you cannot worship Him.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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If we allow Jesus to inform us as to what worship should be, I think your question will be answered. John 4:24 quotes Christ as saying that in order to worship God we must worship Him in spirit and truth. One who is in the spiritual and theological position that you are in cannot worship God according to Christ's description. And any attempt would be hypocritical on your part.

So, until you submit to God's authority and will, you should not only refrain from attempting to worship Him, you cannot worship Him.
OK, but that doesn't answer my question. My question isn't how do I worship him, but simply why should I worship him. Obviously I wouldn't be worshipping a being I don't believe in, but my driving point is that I see no reason to worship God even if I did.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that I believe in the god of the Bible. What then?
 
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golgotha61

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OK, but that doesn't answer my question. My question isn't how do I worship him, but simply why should I worship him. Obviously I wouldn't be worshipping a being I don't believe in, but my driving point is that I see no reason to worship God even if I did.

It does answer your question but you just don't like the answer. The answer is: you, in your spiritual and theological position, should not worship the Christian God because, and this is not how to worship but rather what worship is, you are incapable of worshiping in spirit and truth.

If you attempt such a worship, it would be hypocritical and not in truth. The truth is, you are in rebellion against God and as long as you are in that position, your worship is pointless. My driving point is that you will never see the reason to worship God as long as you are rebellious against Him.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that I believe in the god of the Bible. What then?

Assumption does not equate truth. The only way for one to understand the concept of the worship of the Christian God is to be in a relationship with Him. To assume that you are in a relationship with God, when we both know full well that you are not, is a lie in itself. So your whole premise is based on falsity and the God of the Bible demands truth. I don't engage in dialogue about Christ and God for the sake of argument. I engage in this dialogue for the sake of the lost souls.
 
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cloudyday2

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(Sorry if this has already been covered earlier.) I was thinking about the issue of worship in the context of monotheism and also atheism. It seems like a defining characteristic of a god is the idea that it should be worshiped. But what does it mean to worship? Sometimes I praise my cat and tell him how great he is and how there is no other cat like him. Isn't that worship? Isn't that a natural thing to do? How is that any different from praising God in church?

Another example: Mirra Alfassa "The Mother". Sri Aurobindo told his followers at his ashram to worship her. That seems a little creepy to me, but why should it?
Mirra Alfassa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And one more example: In Egyptian religion there was a creator god that created the other gods from his bodily saliva, etc. In Christianity there was a creator god that created angels. The only difference between an Egyptian god and an angel is that the Egyptian gods are o.k. to worship and the angels aren't o.k. to worship.
 
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oi_antz

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I have no idea. I'd be surprised if Jesus actually worshipped God, because he is God - does God worship himself? Is that even possible?
Yes, I do believe that Jesus practiced worship.

He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, “My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”

This behaviour is clearly that of someone who is worshipping God.
True, but that doesn't stop Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus from worshipping them.
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

Why are you suggesting that I think all Muslims, Sikhs and Hindu's do not worship God in spirit and in truth? Further, this implies that you think I must assume that all Christians who worship God must be worshipping in spirit and in truth. Can you explain why you have made this assumption?
Jesus is entitled to his definition of 'worship' and 'god, just as I'm entitled to mine. I'm not interested in Jesus' definition - as I've tried to explain, I'm interested in mine.
Whose definition do you consider the most authoritative, and why? Would you consider that yours might be incorrect?
The core of my question is: if I were to be convinced that the Christian God exists, that alone wouldn't make me want to worship him. If I were truly convinced he existed, I would be no more inclined to get on my knees, sing his praises, build temples, go to church on Sundays, proselytise to others, etc. So, this thread is for others to explain to me why I should do those things. Perhaps believing in him indwells a person with an urge to do those things, perhaps it is doing those things that provides a person with proof of his existence, who knows.
This is why I am encouraging you to discover the meaning of worship. If worship does truly mean that you must get on your knees, sing his praises, build temples, go to church on Sundays and proselytise to others, then you will find that Christians all over the world will object to the necessity of each of these acts to demonstrate worship, and when pressed to explain these behaviours, will say that these are acts of worship. IOW, these are acts that the person feels is useful to express the way they feel about God, which is a result of their heart being aligned to Him in worship. I might suggest a couple of words, see whether you can fit these into your definition, and whether they don't always fit into the underlying motive for the activities you have mentioned: reverance and obedience.
(A separate, but related, opinion of mine is that I would be disinclined to worship him (read: build temples, sing praises, etc), given his actions in the OT. God killed the firstborn of Egypt, I deem that wicked, so I'm disinclined to sing praises to a wicked being. But that's a discussion for a separate time, perhaps)
It is a topic for a separate thread, but I would like to know what good you think it will do to stage this protest. Is it emotionally gratifying? I am still trying to identify what worship is, rather than what someone might do to demonstrate it.
I'm all for understanding the question I'm asking, but it seems people are using different definitions and coming up with all sorts of irrelevant answers.
Is that helpful to your enquiry?
I see Matthew 6:24 as saying "You can't have two masters" - you can't live for God if you're living for money. That seems to be a naive oversimplification, but there you go.
I don't understand this comment, I find it confusing. Perhaps if you reword it I will understand what you mean.
Depending on the situation, the answer could be yes, no, or maybe.

Religious worship has a nasty tendency to ferment literalism, fundamentalism, and extremism, which is a negative side-effect of worshipping God. It can also foster charity and goodwill, which would be a positive effect.
I expect these are results of misdirected worship. Can you give an example of this happening as a result of worshipping God? Jesus is said to have come to set the captives free. He is said to have opposed religious hypocrisy and the profiteering of the institution of sacrifice. That is, to free the Jews from the misdirected worship that the religious leaders had instituted, that they can worship God in spirit and in truth. So give us an example and let's see if you are right.
'Worship', as you understand it, could be either good, bad, or neutral. If you 'worship' peace or medicine or science, good things follow. If you 'worship' money or possessions or power, bad things may follow.

So, it depends.
What does it depend on? You seem to be suggesting here that it depends on who you worship. I would suggest that it is more than that alone. When you worship medicine, you are putting your faith in the reliability of a doctor. There are many cases where a doctor's mistake has resulted in failure. Same goes with science, things explode if we are not careful enough. So medicine and science are abstractions of knowledge, not necessarily intended to be worshipped, but to be used much as a spade is used for digging. I think this demonstrates that your understanding of worship could still do with a bit of refinement.
I think many problems in this world come from people being too hung-up on worshipping him. It is God's worshippers who rather pray than bring their kids to a doctor, who want to replace science and medicine with Creationism, who preach 'abstinence only', who encourage the prejudice, expulsion, oppression, and even murder of others just because they're gay, or brown-skinned, or non-Christian.

I am not convinced that worshipping God is always such a good thing. Even if these people are misinterpreting text X, or aren't following the true message of Christ, or whatever, it's undeniable that they are 'worshipping' God - they are holding God as highest, are they not?
No they are not. Would you like me to go one by one and show you why each of these things you have mentioned are not the result of worshipping God, or at least not the result of God's commandment? People get all sorts of ideas, and for all sorts of reasons, might decide to say that God gave them that idea. If the idea did not come from God, yet they say that it did, do you say that they are worshipping God?
 
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Harry3142

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We worship God in order to maintain the vitality without which no society can survive for an extended period of time:

The attempt made in recent decades by secularist thinkers to disengage [the moral principles of Western civilization] from their [scripturally based] religious context, in the assurance that they could live a life of their own as a "humanistic" ethic, has resulted in what one writer has called our "cut-flower culture." Cut flowers retain their original beauty and fragrance, but only so long as they retain the vitality that they have drawn from their now severed roots; after that is exhausted, they wither and die. So with freedom, brotherhood, justice, and personal dignity - the values that form the moral foundation of our civilization. Without the life-giving power of the faith out of which they have sprung, they possess neither meaning nor vitality. Morality ungrounded in God is indeed a house built upon sand, unable to stand up against the vagaries of impulse and the brutal pressures of power and self-interest. (Will Herberg, Judaism and Modern Man, as quoted in Jewish Wisdom, page 291, by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin)
 
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DennisTate

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Simple question - why should I worship God?

If the Cyclic Model of the Universe is close to being true…….. as Mellen Benedict was shown during his near death experience……. then we don't want to even imagine how lousy life would have been when all that existed was fundamental energy Super Strings and Super Waves???!!!


The Void

I felt and heard several velvety sonic booms again. My consciousness, or being, was expanding to interface with the entire holographic universe and more.

As I passed into the second light, the awareness came to me that I had just transcended the truth. Those are the best words I have for it, but I will try to explain. As I passed into the second light, I expanded beyond the first light. I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond infinity. I was in the void. I was in pre-creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time - the first word - the first vibration. I was in the eye of creation. I felt as if I was touching the face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with absolute life and consciousness.

When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That's a mind-expanding thought, isn't it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event which created the universe. I saw that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by supercomputers using fractal geometry equations.(Mellen Benedict, near-death.com)
….
…..
 
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sculleywr

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I actually like this question, because it gets to the heart of the matter. Here is a short and simple response:

First, Worship is a manifestation of God's presence and action in the midst of His people. It is God who gathers His scattered people together, and it is He who reveals Himself as we enter into His presence. The Worship of the Orthodox Church very vividly expresses the truth that God dwells among His people and that we are created to share in His life.

Second, Worship is our corporate response of thanksgiving to the presence of God and a remembrance of His saving actions - especially the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Orthodox Worship is centered upon God. He has acted in history, and He continues to act through the Holy Spirit. We are mindful of His actions and we respond to His love with praise and thanksgiving. In so doing we come closer to God.

from: Worship — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
 
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twinkle2304

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I worship God because he deserves it. The love I feel for him makes me want to worship him. It is not something you can understand until you truly know him and his spirit lives inside of you. It is just this desire I have and it brings me happiness in doing so, makes me feel closer to him. Again for me it is an indescribable feeling, something you have to experience.
 
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theophilus777

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A generous gift with a host of fine print. But that doesn't make him worthy of worship - gratitude, maybe, but not worship.

The context here is about the gift of Christ Himself. I think you ask some very good questions in this thread and make some funny comments, but at the end of the day the real crux of the issue is all here in this little snippet.

What is worship? It can be defined any number of ways, but part of "being God," whatever that means, includes the idea that HIS definition of this is more important than ours. And on that point, worship is kind of like an extension of gratitude: we 'enter his gates with thanksgiving, and enter his courts with praise.' There's a trend here ... worship literally means to approach. What things will He count as worship, (in the positive sense) if all we want to do is get closer? And which things will He count as worship (of the wrong things and in the negative sense) if "all we wanted to do" was to get closer? The word is indeed a two edged sword.

You also have every right to reject Him, or even to accept Him but refuse to worship Him. We also are judged by our actions, but also on the basis of our hearts. And worship is most certainly an affair of the heart.

I'd rather thank science and modern medicine for my enjoyable Western life, than a God who deigned not to put me in impoverished Africa.

And yet a good many people living in poverty in Africa are very happy, and even joyful people. And studies are out that by every measure the happiest people in the US live in our poorest State. I merely point out the disconnect between this line of thinking and worship, or Joy as a Spiritual attribute.
 
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