False Converts

FreeGrace2

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So, there is such a category as "false convert". Thanks.
Seems you missed my question, which was in #196:
Oh, one more thing. Since you believe there is mention of "false converts" in Scripture, though obviously not those exact words, please just define the term. So I know what you mean when you use the word. Thanks.
Would you please enlighten me as to how you define a false convert.

Or was your one-liner an agreement with what I explained?
 
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Hammster

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Seems you missed my question, which was in #196:
Oh, one more thing. Since you believe there is mention of "false converts" in Scripture, though obviously not those exact words, please just define the term. So I know what you mean when you use the word. Thanks.
Would you please enlighten me as to how you define a false convert.

Or was your one-liner an agreement with what I explained?

No need. You already believe there's false converts.
 
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sdowney717

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False converts, those who have no faith, notice v2 and v3.
May the Lord deliver us from such persons, who are of the evil one, Satan.
Satan has his schemes and one of them is to infiltrate into the church those who are in opposition to Christ and what the Word has to say and what the word teaches His children. Paul's request is prayer that the Lord deliver us from the evil one's schemes, and that word of God run swiftly (fill the earth with knowledge of the glory of the Lord) and His word be glorified in all the earth.

I consider unreasonable persons to be hardhearted, unteachable, those who lay heavy burdens on others, those who resist God.
2 Thessalonians 3
New King James Version (NKJV)
Pray for Us

1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified, just as it is with you,

2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you.

5 Now may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the patience of Christ.
 
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FreeGrace2

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False converts, those who have no faith, notice v2 and v3.
May the Lord deliver us from such persons, who are of the evil one, Satan.
Satan has his schemes and one of them is to infiltrate into the church those who are in opposition to Christ and what the Word has to say and what the word teaches His children.
I believe Paul correctly identified those as "false brethren", and as spies.

2 Cor 11:26, Gal 2:4
 
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cygnusx1

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There ya go...so if Jesus tells us we are saved by our faith, and Paul tells us we are saved by our faith, then James can't be telling us faith doesn't save. He MUST be telling us this is NOT faith, no matter what those so-called believers ARE saying. There is no other way to possibly see it.

James doesn't deny faith saves , he just distinguishes faux faith from genuine , and the false faith cannot save because it isn't accompanied by fruit . Faith works by love and how do we know we love Him if we don't keep His commands ?

James uses the illustration of demons who merely believe that God is one , and they tremble but are unchanged , they have no works that are produced by faith , their faith is incomplete . This type of faith cannot save . The person who has this faith (without works) is not alive in the Spirit or saved , yet they may believe otherwise.
 
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FreeGrace2

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James doesn't deny faith saves , he just distinguishes faux faith from genuine , and the false faith cannot save because it isn't accompanied by fruit . Faith works by love and how do we know we love Him if we don't keep His commands ?

James uses the illustration of demons who merely believe that God is one , and they tremble but are unchanged , they have no works that are produced by faith , their faith is incomplete . This type of faith cannot save . The person who has this faith (without works) is not alive in the Spirit or saved , yet they may believe otherwise.
Where do you get that a dead faith is a "faux" or false faith? The words are not interchangeable, nor synonymous.

Your question: "how do we know we love Him if we don't keep His commands ?" is from John's first epistle. Let's examine what else he said:

1 John 3:18
Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

This is exactly what James was stressing, esp given 2:15,16 which followed 2:14.

Those who love only with word or tongue are hypocrites. Loving in deed and truth is how believers should live. And in so doing, they demonstrate their faith to others.

A faith that does not demonstrate itself in actions is subject to the charge of hypocrisy. That's what James was concerned with. But the fact that he never used the word "hypocrisy" doesn't matter, because his example in 2:15,16 clearly indicates the actions of a hypocrite.

Remember, James was the half brother of Jesus. And it was Jesus who strongly emphasized the problem of hypocrisy. So it would naturally follow that James would be very much aware of Jesus' concern about hypocrisy.
 
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cygnusx1

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Where do you get that a dead faith is a "faux" or false faith? The words are not interchangeable, nor synonymous.

Your question: "how do we know we love Him if we don't keep His commands ?" is from John's first epistle. Let's examine what else he said:

1 John 3:18
Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

This is exactly what James was stressing, esp given 2:15,16 which followed 2:14.

Those who love only with word or tongue are hypocrites. Loving in deed and truth is how believers should live. And in so doing, they demonstrate their faith to others.

A faith that does not demonstrate itself in actions is subject to the charge of hypocrisy. That's what James was concerned with. But the fact that he never used the word "hypocrisy" doesn't matter, because his example in 2:15,16 clearly indicates the actions of a hypocrite.

Remember, James was the half brother of Jesus. And it was Jesus who strongly emphasized the problem of hypocrisy. So it would naturally follow that James would be very much aware of Jesus' concern about hypocrisy.

Works in the body , and fruit , these and these alone are the criteria we shall be judged upon , a faith that only believes and doesn't act upon belief is fatal.

Faux faith is that which doesn't accomplish works

A false faith is one that claims to save but by bad works or no obedience fails to save

..
 
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Hammster

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Works in the body , and fruit , these and these alone are the criteria we shall be judged upon , a faith that only believes and doesn't act upon belief is fatal.

Faux faith is that which doesn't accomplish works

A false faith is one that claims to save but by bad works or no obedience fails to save

..

So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from M e, you who practice lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:17-23 NASB)
 
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FreeGrace2

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Works in the body , and fruit , these and these alone are the criteria we shall be judged upon , a faith that only believes and doesn't act upon belief is fatal.
Where is your support from Scripture?

Faux faith is that which doesn't accomplish works
No support from Scripture, though.

A false faith is one that claims to save but by bad works or no obedience fails to save

..
The reality is that any faith is in anyone or anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ is false, and does not save.

But faith that is placed in the Lord Jesus Christ DOES result in salvation, because God has promised eternal life (salvation) to those who believe.

The issue is for believers to demonstrate their faith so that others can see it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from M e, you who practice lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:17-23 NASB)
Well, the context beginning in 7:15 is about false teachers. v.21 begins a new context about those who have placed their faith in their own works to save tham, and that is what they based their plead on.

While it is true that nature does not contradict itself (Matt 7:17), believers can and do contradict themselves, as James noted:

James 3:8
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
James 3:9
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
James 3:10
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

This supports the view that 2:14-26 is about demonstrating one's faith so others can see it, and avoid the charge of hypocrisy.

When "we" (believers) bless our Lord and Father, AND curse men, we not only contradict ourselves, but we are hypocrites, since men were created in the image of God.

It is contradictory and hypocritical to do that. Which was James' point.
 
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Hammster

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Well, the context beginning in 7:15 is about false teachers. v.21 begins a new context about those who have placed their faith in their own works to save tham, and that is what they based their plead on.

While it is true that nature does not contradict itself (Matt 7:17), believers can and do contradict themselves, as James noted:

James 3:8
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
James 3:9
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
James 3:10
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

This supports the view that 2:14-26 is about demonstrating one's faith so others can see it, and avoid the charge of hypocrisy.

When "we" (believers) bless our Lord and Father, AND curse men, we not only contradict ourselves, but we are hypocrites, since men were created in the image of God.

It is contradictory and hypocritical to do that. Which was James' point.

"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. (Matthew 12:33 NASB)
 
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FreeGrace2

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"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. (Matthew 12:33 NASB)
James 3:8
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
James 3:9
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
James 3:10
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

:)
 
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Hammster

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For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. (Luke 6:43-45 NASB)
 
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FreeGrace2

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For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. (Luke 6:43-45 NASB)
James 3:8
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
James 3:9
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
James 3:10
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
 
Upvote 0