Paul considered that Christ's resurrection was of universal salvific benefit

The Boxer said:

Don't be a wise guy.
We just see the narrative differently than you.

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For no apparent reason, either.

Btw, that the jailer sought salvation in and of itself shows that he was regenerated before believing. Unregenerated men do not seek God. They are at enmity with Him.

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Just a string of talking points. No Scripture to back them up.

That the jailer sought salvation demonstrates the ministry of the Holy Spirit in conviction of sin, per Jn 16.

From the context, we know that the demon possessed slasve girl had been following Paul and company around for "many days" shouting “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” (16:17)

So it was quite clear to all in Philippi what Paul was preaching about. And the jailer had gotten wind of it, obviously.

Your assumptions cannot be proven, or even supported by Scripture.

He was an unbeliever who was under conviction from the Holy Spirit and he knew he needed salvation.

Your view contrasts with hammster's, who acknowledges that regeneration and faith occur at the same time. We differ on "logical sequence", but we both know that they occur together.

So you think regeneration occurs some time before faith. On what basis? Your own imagination, or what? What Scripture led you to that view?

The Boxer said:

Isaac was born of the Spirit from Sarah's womb.

Gal 4:21-31
Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30But what does the Scripture say?


Note that Isaac was born of the Spirit NOT because he believed, but because he was born of the freewoman. Likewise, we are born of the Spirit NOT because we believe, but because we are born of the freewoman.

Now, let's put the question to you: Where is it taught IN scripture that one is regenerated after faith?

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Nothing here about being born by the Spririt in Sarah's womb. The Greek word for "from" means "out from". Isaac was born again outside Sarah's womb.

The teaching in Scripture of faith before regeneration comes from Eph 2:5 and 8.

In v.5, Paul equates "being made alive" with "have been saved".

In v.8, Paul indicates that faith precedes salvation. The math is easy.

Hammster said:

No that you know it was for clarification, will you answer it?

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I'm on my way out to church. But if you re-phrase your question so that what you want clarified is clarified, I will answer it when I return.

Hammster said:

That's a red herring because you changed the subject from the atonement to salvation in general. Free will is not the issue at hand, but rather the extent of the atonement. Yeah, you gave it lip service, but did not deal with my actual argument.

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You don't understand the meaning of Red Herring for you to make that accusation against me. I was directly dealing with why you can't understand the Arminian view of the atonement because of your lack of understanding of free will. My comment was directly related to what you were saying.

Yours was a false accusation.

So I'll ask you, did Jesus take the punishment for all men's sins, and if so, why would they be punished in hell for their sins?

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I've already answered those questions. You don't like my answer so you ask them again. I'm not into playing those kinds of games. If you try them again, I'll ignore your response.

FreeGrace2 said:

Nothing here about being born by the Spririt in Sarah's womb. The Greek word for "from" means "out from". Isaac was born again outside Sarah's womb.

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First, I said, "from" Sarah's womb. Second, Isaac was born of the Spirit because he was born of promise. Was Isaac of promise in or out of Sarah's womb?

The teaching in Scripture of faith before regeneration comes from Eph 2:5 and 8.

In v.5, Paul equates "being made alive" with "have been saved".

In v.8, Paul indicates that faith precedes salvation. The math is easy.

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Sorry, but Ephesians 2 is NOT about regeneration. Paul's reference to our "being made alive" refers to our legal standing. Paul said that we were made alive "WITH Christ." Christ was not regenerated. But He was "made alive" regarding the law.

I ask you again: Where is it taught IN scripture that one is regenerated after faith?

FreeGrace2 said:

For no apparent reason, either.

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I gave my reasons. Anecdotal evidence is "dubious." You need solid evidence to support it. That you keep failing to produce supporting evidence shows that you do not have it.

Just a string of talking points. No Scripture to back them up.

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Would you please tell us what scripture you are reading? The scripture I read says this,

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

The Boxer said:

Sorry, but Ephesians 2 is NOT about regeneration. Paul's reference to our 'being made alive' refers to our legal standing. Paul said that we were made alive 'WITH' Christ. Christ was not regenerated. But He was 'made alive' regarding the law.

I ask you again: Where is it taught IN scripture that one is regenerated after faith?

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Boxer, you are exactly right. Christ was not regenerated, He did not need to be. After death, there remains no more penalty. We are joined to Him in death, buried with Him in baptism, and raised with Him to newness of life, BEYOND the penalty of the Law, because we are counted as having died with Him, thereby the penalty has been satisfied. We are raised with Him because of our union with Him, which is by faith. This only applies to those who are His, by faith. All others are still due the penalty for their sins.

Hammster said:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (Ephesians 2:4, 5 NASB)

We were dead. He made us alive. Regeneration.

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John Gill:

Hath quickened us together with Christ: which may be understood either of regeneration, when a soul that is dead in a moral or spiritual sense, is quickened and made alive; a principle of life is infused....


or else this may be understood of justification; men are dead in a legal sense, and on account of sin, are under the sentence of death; though they naturally think themselves alive, and in a good state; but when the Spirit of God comes, he strikes dead all their hopes of life by a covenant of works; not merely by letting in the terrors of the law upon the conscience, but by showing the spirituality of it, and the exceeding sinfulness of sin; and how incapable they are of satisfying the law, for the transgressions of it; and then he works faith in them, whereby they revive and live; they see pardon and righteousness in Christ, and pray for the one, and plead the other; and also lay hold and live upon the righteousness of Christ, when the Spirit seals up the pardon of their sins to them, and passes the sentence of justification on them, and so they reckon themselves alive unto God;

and this is the justification of life, the Scripture speaks of; and this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him:

Ephesians 2:1 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Commentaries - StudyLight.org


We were "made alive" WITH Christ. Christ was NOT "made alive" spiritually. Christ was NOT regenerated.

The Boxer said:

First, I said, "from" Sarah's womb. Second, Isaac was born of the Spirit because he was born of promise. Was Isaac of promise in or out of Sarah's womb?

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The error is in trying to "mix and match" various concepts and trying to equalize them. Being born of "promise" was in regard to Abraham having a child PAST the age of being able. God promised him a child, and though his body was sexually dead, he did have a child. Being born of the Spirit refers to regeneration, not being born of a father and mother who are past age.

Sorry, but Ephesians 2 is NOT about regeneration. Paul's reference to our "being made alive" refers to our legal standing.

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I wish your comment was just kidding. But I know you aren't. The phrase clearly refers to our regeneration. And you should be sorry for not understanding that.

Paul said that we were made alive "WITH Christ." Christ was not regenerated. But He was "made alive" regarding the law.

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When the Holy Spirit puts believers "in union with Christ" is when we are regenerated.

I ask you again: Where is it taught IN scripture that one is regenerated after faith?

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I gave it, and you summarily rejected it. Nothing new here.

Eph 2:5 and 8 teach it. But it refutes your view, so you reject it.

The Boxer said:

Would you please tell us what scripture you are reading? The scripture I read says this,

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

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The beginning phrase in v.10 clearly indicates a quote from the OT, and the first passage Paul quotes from to PROVE that "all are under sin" (v.9) comes from Psa 14:1-3, in which the subject are "fools", or atheists. It's atheists who don't seek God.

If that verse refers to the entire human race, then God FAILED in His creation, because Paul preached to a crowd at Mars Hill that God created mankind to seek Him. So if no one seeks Him, He simply FAILED in His creation.

But the regenerate do seek God !

Clearly Romans three is dealing with unregenerate mankind .....

cygnusx1 said:

But the regenerate do seek God !

Clearly Romans three is dealing with unregenerate mankind .....

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Would you please learn to back quote so that we know to whom your comment is directed?

Oz

cygnusx1 said:

But the regenerate do seek God !

Clearly Romans three is dealing with unregenerate mankind .....

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Yep

OzSpen said:

Would you please learn to back quote so that we know to whom your comment is directed?

Oz

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If it's the previous post it should be obvious , I explained to you before why I sometimes do and sometimes don't , sometimes it's directed towards the Discussion not a person , ok .

cygnusx1 said:

If it's the previous post it should be obvious , I explained to you before why I sometimes do and sometimes don't , sometimes it's directed towards the Discussion not a person , ok .

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There is no guarantee that it will be the previous post when so many people are posting and another could beat you to it. But it is courteous, nonetheless.

.