once saved always saved

Originally posted by ZoneChaos


Of coarse it is Matt.. duh!

You have to be telling the truth when you say those things...

Is He the Lord of your life? Yes or now. Saying it isn;t the issue.. is He or isn;t He.. not I say He is or I say He isn't.

Did He die to save you? Saying He did isn't enough.. Having Faith and knowing He did is what is needed.. you must be telling the truth.

Did He forgive your sins? Again, if you know He did, you can honestly say yes.

In all these, how can one know? Faith.

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Ok, so you're saved by grace through faith. But James said that faith without works is dead. A faith that is dead implies that it was alive at some point, or else we would have no faith. Do you believe the Lord will call you a good and faithful servant if your faith is dead?

But James said that faith without works is dead. A faith that is dead implies that it was alive at some point, or else we would have no faith. Do you believe the Lord will call you a good and faithful servant if your faith is dead?

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"Faith without works is dead."

Is this talking about Faith being existant or non existant, or rather Faith being true or not true?

James was saying that if you are "claiming" you are saved, and yet have no works to show for it, then your Faith is not true Faith... true Faith is non-existant, and thus, your salvation is non-existant.

But, if a person has true Faith, then they will also have desire to do works in thier Christian life, and it is their works as a Christian that give testament that they truly are saved and have real Faith in God.

Originally posted by ZoneChaos


"Faith without works is dead."

Is this talking about Faith being existant or non existant, or rather Faith being true or not true?

James was saying that if you are "claiming" you are saved, and yet have no works to show for it, then your Faith is not true Faith... true Faith is non-existant, and thus, your salvation is non-existant.

But, if a person has true Faith, then they will also have desire to do works in thier Christian life, and it is their works as a Christian that give testament that they truly are saved and have real Faith in God.

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And if they lose that desire to do good works, what happens to their faith? Is it dead or alive?

And if they lose that desire to do good works, what happens to their faith? Is it dead or alive?

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I am guilty of holding to "Lordship Salvation". When Jesus says, "You must be born again", it means to me that the old nature dies and a new one is born, THROUGH Jesus Christ. The "fellowship thing" is identically salvation. "JESUS-IN-US".

Which is a lengthy, round-about-way of saying, "he who desires not to do good works, is not saved". Else Jesus was just kidding when He said, "You will know them by their fruits. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit". AND when He said, "Not everyone shall inherit the kingdom of God, but he who does the will of the Father.

Also agrees with Paul, in passages like, "Therefore work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is HE (JESUS!) who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." And, "For we are His workmanship, created to walk in good works, which He has prepared beforehand that we might walk in them...

"Faith without works is dead" (not-saved)...

"And if they lose that desire to do good works, what happens to their faith? Is it dead or alive?"

If you are a true christian you never had it in the first place, God give it to you..and thus you will ALWAYS have it

Originally posted by matt


And if they lose that desire to do good works, what happens to their faith? Is it dead or alive?

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If they lost the desire (which at times I have), I would consider my faith dead, in that it is not doing anything to show testimony to God. But, as a Christian, God draws me back, because I am saved... and convicts me.

Originally posted by ZoneChaos


If they lost the desire (which at times I have), I would consider my faith dead, in that it is not doing anything to show testimony to God. But, as a Christian, God draws me back, because I am saved... and convicts me.

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Good. Then must agree that if you faith is dead and you die, which seals your eternity, you are not saved. Pretty simple huh.

Just becasue my faith is not testifying to God, does not mean He will take away my salvation He gave thorugh grace.

Originally posted by ZoneChaos
Just becasue my faith is not testifying to God, does not mean He will take away my salvation He gave thorugh grace.

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So do you believe go will call someone a "good and faithful servant", if their faith is dead?

What about Acts 20:29-30 "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in amoug you, not sparing the flock. Also from among YOURSELVES men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

John5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life.

God Bless
Tyler

So, what are you saying, Tyler? Is it possible to believe for a time, and then stop believing???

Nope, its not ben because that faith comes from God, but alas, we already when through this

Originally posted by Ben johnson
So, what are you saying, Tyler? Is it possible to believe for a time, and then stop believing???

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I didn't say anything Christ did!

What did Christ say, Tyler?

Louis, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". This passage is clearly speaking of a certain faith, specifically, "faith-unto-salvation". Where does "saving faith" come from? From GOd, or from hearing? Did Paul know what he was talking about?

Can you give a single verse that says, "saving faith is from God"? (No you can't use Eph2:8-10; the subject of the passage is "God's saving grace".

"For by grace (God's-saving-grace) have you been saved through faith (prepositional phrase, NOT the subject; "through faith" modifies the subject), and THAT (God's-saving-grace) is not of yourselves, IT (God's-saving-grace) is the gift of God; IT (God's-saving-grace) is not as a result of works lest anyone boast..."

Any other verse that suggests that God installs "faith-unto-salvation"?



(hint: Does Rom12:3 support your view?)

Originally posted by matt


So do you believe go will call someone a "good and faithful servant", if their faith is dead?

What about Acts 20:29-30 "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in amoug you, not sparing the flock. Also from among YOURSELVES men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

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If a Christian dies, and tha Christian is not currently faithful in his walk.. he will still go to heaven, and God will still say well done, my good and faithful servant. If he is faithful.. all the better.

Now, during a Christians walk, God constantly keeps a christian in check as well, so it is very hard for a christian to remain un-faithful, as be a christian places a desire in your heart to do other wise.

Hypothetical: For whatever reason, I decide to stop going to church, rob a bank, and buy drugs with the money. A month later, the drugs kill me. I will still go to heaven.

Originally posted by ZoneChaos


If a Christian dies, and tha Christian is not currently faithful in his walk.. he will still go to heaven, and God will still say well done, my good and faithful servant. If he is faithful.. all the better.

Now, during a Christians walk, God constantly keeps a christian in check as well, so it is very hard for a christian to remain un-faithful, as be a christian places a desire in your heart to do other wise.

Hypothetical: For whatever reason, I decide to stop going to church, rob a bank, and buy drugs with the money. A month later, the drugs kill me. I will still go to heaven.

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I don't know what to say here, what you said is just wrong. I've given you plain and simple verses that explain this, but you ignore them. If you are not a good and faithful servant, God will NOT call you a good and faithful servant. It's that simple.

Read the verse from Acts again and let me know what you think abou that.

"Where does "saving faith" come from? "

God And why can't you use that passage? It speaks directly about saving faith. Ben, if you're going to go into something with preconcieved ideas you'll always find what you're looking for, but it probalby won't be the truth.

Yes, romans 12:3 does as does Romans chapter 8 lets see..who calls us and makes saves us? "It is God who justifies.." It is God that saves us and gives us our faith Ben, that is entirely biblical.

If a Christian dies, and that Christian is not currently faithful in his walk... he will still go to heaven, and God will still say well done, my good and faithful servant. If he is faithful.. all the better.

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What does this mean? He is "not currently faithful in his walk". That means that he is living unrepentently in sin? So that Jesus didn't-really-mean-it when He said, "For I tell you, unless they repent, THEY WILL PERISH"? Lk13:3 And Paul was just kidding when he said, "Do not be decieved, (none of the LIST) will inherit the kingdom of God" 1Cor6:9-11 And Paul (assuming he wrote Hebrews) was only teasing when he wrote, "For if we continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire that will consume the adversaries"?

Hypothetical: For whatever reason, I decide to stop going to church, rob a bank, and buy drugs with the money. A month later, the drugs kill me. I will still go to heaven.

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What then, is salvation? Is it simply "praying-the-sinner's-prayer"? A sort of incantation?

What does "born again" mean?

Why did Jesus say, "You will know them by their fruits. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit. Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut off and ...cast into the fire"? Was Jesus being insincere when He said, "Not everyone shall inherit the kingdom of God, but he who does the will of the Father?

Can you be "saved", but not be "in fellowship" with Jesus? What is salvation?

But then if someone loses their salvation as soon as they sin, how can they come to Christ in the first place? Surely if God snatched our salvation away from us the moment we sinned, then why would he give it to us, simply as a result of asking for it? Surely if that was the case, we would have to prove our repentance first to God and if we became as sinless as possible then he would save us, but on the condition we did not sin?
Where does grace come into all this if we have to earn our initial salvation and struggle to keep our salvation until the end? Again where does it say in the bible that you can lose your salvation and get it back again? I would have thought if someone lost their salvation, that was it- no second chance!
I don't think you can lose your salvation- if you are going to eternally reject God later, an omnipotent God isn't going to be stupid enough to give it to you in the first place- if you really mean it, you will mean it for life, no matter what gets thrown at you in this world.

Originally posted by Da Berkshire Massive
But then if someone loses their salvation as soon as they sin, how can they come to Christ in the first place? Surely if God snatched our salvation away from us the moment we sinned, then why would he give it to us, simply as a result of asking for it? Surely if that was the case, we would have to prove our repentance first to God and if we became as sinless as possible then he would save us, but on the condition we did not sin?
Where does grace come into all this if we have to earn our initial salvation and struggle to keep our salvation until the end? Again where does it say in the bible that you can lose your salvation and get it back again? I would have thought if someone lost their salvation, that was it- no second chance!
I don't think you can lose your salvation- if you are going to eternally reject God later, an omnipotent God isn't going to be stupid enough to give it to you in the first place- if you really mean it, you will mean it for life, no matter what gets thrown at you in this world.

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Brilliant!