Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

Law saints had faith from the soul.... ex 4:30-31 sign and wonder then they believed

NT saints under grace who have the best salvation and promises Heb 11:39-40, 2 peter 1:4 have a faith that is not of sight heb 11:1

one of many dangers is taking someone else mail.. guilty of it my self
another is context of the letter
 
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extraordinary

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2 Thess 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because
God from the beginning chose you for salvation
through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father,
who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
Please open your eyes to see the conditions in red.

The BAC may (has permission to) and can (has ability to) NOT do these things!
Anyone can choose anyone for anything, but the second party may and can fail to do what he/she was chosen to do.
E.G. Do you think Paul's prayer in 16-17 must be answered successfully?

Sanctification is a long process of co-operating with the Holy Spirit.

Everything throughout the Scriptures is about a co-operative effort between God and man.
(Except the Creation and such.)
.
 
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sdowney717

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Please open your eyes to see the conditions in red.

The BAC may (has permission to) and can (has ability to) NOT do these things!
Anyone can choose anyone for anything, but the second party may and can fail to do what he/she was chosen to do.
E.G. Do you think Paul's prayer in 16-17 must be answered successfully?

Sanctification is a long process of co-operating with the Holy Spirit.

Everything throughout the Scriptures is about a co-operative effort between God and man.
(Except the Creation and such.)
.

Like the new creation in Christ Jesus that He does for us.
Behold all things are new for a new creation.
None can know Him unless He wills it so.
 
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extraordinary

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Behold all things are new for a new creation.
Just hit me ...

When any living thing is newly created ...
God has given it the grace to be born into this world.
However, it has to struggle to maintain its' physical life!
And many just don't make it very far.

Jesus struggled, that's for sure! ... and was an overcomer (Rev 3:21).

In the case of the BAC, he/she struggles to maintain both physical and eternal life.
Re: the spiritual part, that's what all of the dozens of warnings are about ...
i.e. don't be complacent, but struggle to be an overcomer and make it to heaven.
Jesus told us to be overcomers "as I also overcame" (Rev 3:21).
WOW!
.
 
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THIS

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How does one overcomer do?

1 jn 5:5 ....

who is not ... john 16:9

Why do people reject Jesus? Why do they believe in nothing, or in false gods/goddesses? The Bible tells us why people do not believe. The bible tells us why Jesus does not save many.

Those who don't believe and obey Jesus love darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

They are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, and they always resist the Holy Ghost.

They are obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

They do evil in God's sight and chose what displeases Him.

That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations,

They exchange the truth of God for a lie.

They are self-seeking and they reject the truth and follow evil.

They do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God.

They are hostile to God.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

They have been deceived by sin.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Their minds are on earthly things.

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.

There are those who hear the word of God but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And there are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. There are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

They are stubborn and follow their own devices.

They are stubborn; the sinews of their neck are iron, their forehead are bronze.

They have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.

They do not listen or pay attention; instead, they follow the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They go backward and not forward.

They have stubborn pride.

They refuse to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.

They are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the LORD’s instruction.

Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?

Examine yourselves and you will see that the word of God is true.



John 3

Acts 7:51

Isaiah 65:2

Isaiah 65:11,12

Romans 1:19-21

Romans 1:25

Romans 2:8

Romans 1:28

Romans 8:7

2 Thessalonians 2:10

Hebrews 3:13

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Philippians 3:19

Matthew 13:19

Luke 8:11-16

Psalm 81:12

Isaiah 48:4

Jeremiah 5:23

Jeremiah 7:24

Leviticus 26:19

Judges 2:19

Isaiah 30:9

Hosea 4:16
 
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FreeGrace2

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I never suggested that God chooses who will believe based on "their view of election".
OK, let's keep "RT" out of it. Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?

[QUOE] RT believes that God chooses who will be saved based on no criteria.[/QUOTE]
A random crapshoot, then??

I believe Paul's answer to the jailer clearly indicates a condition. The jailer asked what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul's answer was to believe. That is a condition. Faith.

RT believe in unconditional salvation. If God chose on a preset set of circumstances, it would not be unconditional.
I think you're mixing ideas. Of course God chooses unconditionally. He doesn't discriminate between believers; He chooses ALL of them to save. Even the stinky ones. :) That's an unconditional choice.

But, does God choose who will believe? That's the main issue.

You are suggesting a cause and effect of a specific order in the 1 Cor. scripture, and I don't believe that that is the case.
That is your right, but it's there, nevertheless. God saves believers.

He doesn't "make" believers and then save them. He saves those who believe.

I don't see why you don't see clearly a cause and effect; man believes, God saves. Is it that you maybe just don't want to?

I never said he did.
I know you didn't. I was asking why can't you believe that God gives only believers to Jesus.

Nobody believes before they are regenerated. All are degenerate and have no belief.
What verses actually teach that people are regenerated before faith? Calvinists keep making the claim, but I've never seen any clear Scripture to back that up.

God selects them, gives them to Christ to be saved, turns their hearts to Him and gives them saving faith and justifies them.
OK, so you DO believe that God chooses who will believe. What verses make that clear?

John 6:22-the end of the chapter, but specifically verses 37, 39, 44, and 65.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, they don't say what RT claims. You may think they mean what RT claims, but they neither mean nor say what RT claims.
 
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FreeGrace2

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OK, let's keep "RT" out of it. Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?
Yes.

RT believes that God chooses who will be saved based on no criteria.
A random crapshoot, then??

I believe Paul's answer to the jailer clearly indicates a condition. The jailer asked what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul's answer was to believe. That is a condition. Faith.
If you choose to be crass about it, fine, then yes, a random crapshoot.

It isn't a condition if God gives you the faith.

I think you're mixing ideas. Of course God chooses unconditionally. He doesn't discriminate between believers; He chooses ALL of them to save. Even the stinky ones. :) That's an unconditional choice.

But, does God choose who will believe? That's the main issue.


That is your right, but it's there, nevertheless. God saves believers.

He doesn't "make" believers and then save them. He saves those who believe.
Actually, He does. The Bible is clear that our faith is a gift, imparted at the time He turns our hearts to himself. Read Ephesians 2. "For by grace you are saved by faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

I don't see why you don't see clearly a cause and effect; man believes, God saves. Is it that you maybe just don't want to?
I do see a cause and effect. I see God turning our hearts to him, gifting us with faith, and us believing.

I know you didn't. I was asking why can't you believe that God gives only believers to Jesus.
Because that is not what any of the scriptures say. They say that God gifts us faith when we are saved.

What verses actually teach that people are regenerated before faith? Calvinists keep making the claim, but I've never seen any clear Scripture to back that up.
see above

OK, so you DO believe that God chooses who will believe. What verses make that clear?

John 6:22-the end of the chapter, but specifically verses 37, 39, 44, and 65.
Sorry, they don't say what RT claims. You may think they mean what RT claims, but they neither mean nor say what RT claims.
The verses I listed (that you have copied here). And they do say exactly that. What do you think they say?
 
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sdowney717

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and even thou we were ... He saved some ... 2 cor 4:3-6

Yes He did and does.
You are not your own, you are bought at a price, with His blood shed for you.
You were sanctified, justified, by the Spirit of our God.
Ownership, God zealously guards His own, like a shepherd with his sheep, or mother hen with her chicks. He gives up His life so that believers can live forever with God. Jesus dies for believers so that they will not perish.

James 4
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?

1 Cor 6
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Glorify God in Body and Spirit

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Wow. Yet, no verses to support that.

If you choose to be crass about it, fine, then yes, a random crapshoot.
Not crass. Just shootin' straight. And again, wow. How does God get any glory from randomness? It makes no sense, and…there is no Scripture to support these beliefs.

It isn't a condition if God gives you the faith.
Faith is a noun. He gives the information that we are supposed to believe. So in that sense only, He does "give the faith". But there is no Scripture to support that God causes anyone to believe. Believing is what man does, and yes, it is THE condition for salvation.

Acts 16:31, Eph 2:8.

Actually, He does.
Actually, not. God does not "make' believers. There is no Scripture to support that claim.

The Bible is clear that our faith is a gift, imparted at the time He turns our hearts to himself.
Neither are true. The gift is ALWAYS salvation or eternal life. Rom 6:23

Read Ephesians 2. "For by grace you are saved by faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".
The "it" refers back to being saved, not our faith. Sorry.

I do see a cause and effect. I see God turning our hearts to him, gifting us with faith, and us believing.
Pretty much just a puppet show, then.

Because that is not what any of the scriptures say. They say that God gifts us faith when we are saved.
Actually, there are no Scriptures that say that. They DO say that He saves those who believe.

What's the point in your view of the act of believing, if God is the cause of it? What does it prove or demonstrate?

The Biblical view is that man responds to God's love and promise, which pleases God. Heb 11:6.

The verses I listed (that you have copied here). And they do say exactly that. What do you think they say?
They say what the words say. Let's consider ch 6.

John 6:27
“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
John 6:28
Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

In v.27 Jesus tells them to acquire" for that endures to eternal life. Here is the word usually translated "work" or "labor":
1) to work, labour, do work
2) to trade, to make gains by trading, “do business”
3) to do, work out
3a) exercise, perform, commit
3b) to cause to exist, produce
4) to work for, earn by working, to acquire

I reject any concept that salvation is gained by earning, as you do, so we eliminate those ideas. What is left is "commit" or "acquire". Nothing earned.

In v.28 the crowd asks what works does God require for eternal life.
In v.29 Jesus tells them God requires them to believe in Him for eternal life.

You cited 37, 39, 44, 65 -
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Nothing here about God choosing who will believe. The question is this: who specifically does the Father give to Jesus? The answer is obvious; believers only.

39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

This is a promise of eternal security to all believers.

Why did you ignore this very important verse?
40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

God gives eternal life to those who believe in Christ.

44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Why did you leave out the very next verse, which explains specifically WHO is drawn by the Father:

John 6:45
“It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

There it is: everyone has been taught by God. And those who have listened and learned from Him come to Jesus. iow, those who have listened and learned are drawn to Jesus.

Again, none of the verses you cited SAY what you believe.
 
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Pretty much just a puppet show, then.

At least at our puppet show the puppet MASTER is pulling the strings. A fan of ya'll's puppet show, claims the puppets supposedly pull the puppet MASTER's strings!! That's just wardsback if you ask me.

Btw, do you deny the "law of causation"? Here's a challenge, name just one person place or thing (other than God) that is uncaused (uneffected by causation)?

Please do tell, Science btw depends on this law to make dependable repeatable hypothesis'.
 
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FreeGrace2

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And you pretty much believe in salvation by works. How does that work for boiling it down to a one-sentence summary?
It doesn't work at all. Your view is not even close. I REJECT salvation by works. How does that work for boiling down what I don't believe?

Here is what I believe: salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone. How does that work for boiling down what I do believe?

How come you ignored most of my post, and just focused on 1 line? Too difficult to deal with?

btw, how did you come up with your faulty view of my view when I boiled down your view to a puppet show?

And please explain HOW your view isn't a puppet show, given what you did say.

Apolegetic warrior even admitted that it IS a puppet show.
 
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FreeGrace2

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At least at our puppet show the puppet MASTER is pulling the strings.
Thanks for the honesty. But, honestly, there is no puppet show in Scripture. Seems you'v been reading off the WRONG script, or something.

A fan of ya'll's puppet show, claims the puppets supposedly pull the puppet MASTER's strings!! That's just wardsback if you ask me.
What is truly backward is your silly understanding of my view. How is man "pulling any strings" by placing trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? Can you explain that?

Btw, do you deny the "law of causation"? Here's a challenge, name just one person place or thing (other than God) that is uncaused (uneffected by causation)?
Frankly, your understanding of causation is as faulty as your puppet show.

Just because God created angels and humanity, and they sinned does NOT mean that God caused the sin. That is beyond absurd.

Gun companies manufacture guns. Evil people use guns to kill people. Who caused the murder; the shooter or the maker of the gun. I'd guess you would vote for the maker of the gun, by your logic.

Are auto companies guilty when drunk drivers kill people? No. Not even the liquor or beer makers are held guilty. Only the person who drank the junk before they killed someone.

Please do tell, Science btw depends on this law to make dependable repeatable hypothesis'.
I've given you clear examples of how flawed your logic is.
 
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A New Dawn

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It doesn't work at all. Your view is not even close. I REJECT salvation by works. How does that work for boiling down what I don't believe?
Oh, well. Your view wasn't even close. I guess we are even.

How come you ignored most of my post, and just focused on 1 line? Too difficult to deal with?
It was the only thing that jumped out at me to answer. Besides, I figured that if you had any real intention of discussing things, you wouldn't have degraded that part of the discussion to a pithy oned-liner.

btw, how did you come up with your faulty view of my view when I boiled down your view to a puppet show?
I picked something out of the air, like you did.

And please explain HOW your view isn't a puppet show, given what you did say.

Apolegetic warrior even admitted that it IS a puppet show.
It's only a puppet show if you are being forced to act against your will. When God turns your heart to himself, your will aligns with his. Therefore you are not acting against your will.
 
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Thanks for the honesty.

Ummm evidently you missed the whole point of going with the flow of your gross misrepresentation (and strawman) puppet trope.


But, honestly, there is no puppet show in Scripture. Seems you'v been reading off the WRONG script, or something.

Uhhhh where did I make that claim? You're the one inserting the puppet show into Scripture, when you said; "Pretty much just a puppet show, then." Seems you forget who said what, but press on, muddy the waters.


What is truly backward is your silly understanding of my view. How is man "pulling any strings" by placing trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? Can you explain that?

I surely can explain! In your view, God does nothing but wait, wait for man to respond before He (can and or will) do anything, in this way man is pulling on the string crying "save me", and God responds. It is the result of synergism at the very beginning of the ordo salutis, a view that does not even take into account what the Scriptures tell us about election, predestination, and the omniscience of God.

Frankly, your understanding of causation is as faulty as your puppet show.

Just because God created angels and humanity, and they sinned does NOT mean that God caused the sin. That is beyond absurd.

See here you go creating more strawmen. I did not thoroughly explain "my" view of causation, and one thing I can assure you, I make many distinctions, like the distinction between FIRST and SECONDARY causes. But here I am explaining to you, while you mock, ridicule, create more flaming strawmen.

Gun companies manufacture guns. Evil people use guns to kill people. Who caused the murder; the shooter or the maker of the gun. I'd guess you would vote for the maker of the gun, by your logic.

Thanks for the insult, and contrary to what you might think, you've not answered my challenge.

Are auto companies guilty when drunk drivers kill people? No. Not even the liquor or beer makers are held guilty. Only the person who drank the junk before they killed someone.

All that you've managed to prove is the truth of the distinction between first and secondary causes, and for all 'your' logic here, you will not hear a Calvinist explain the problem of evil in terms of first and secondary causes, no you will not have it! This shows how arbitrary and inconsistent you are when it comes to Calvinism.

I've given you clear examples of how flawed your logic is.

Are auto companies uncaused? No. Is the manufacturing of alchohol uncaused? No. Is the legalization of alchohol consumption uncaused? No. Are irresponsible people uncaused? No. Are drunk drivers uncaused? No. Everything you have mentioned has a cause. Now if you could just explain how the FIRST cause did not make these SECONDARY causes possible (all while knowing them), maybe we might get somewhere.
 
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Actually, He does. The Bible is clear that our faith is a gift, imparted at the time He turns our hearts to himself. Read Ephesians 2. "For by grace you are saved by faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

Some (many?) scholars maintain the "that" refers to the whole of the fact of being saved by grace through faith. IOW, "being saved" is the "gift," not faith.

Because that is not what any of the scriptures say. They say that God gifts us faith when we are saved.

Many of us see, e.g., John 1:12-13 showing that *first* we believe and receive, THEN we are regenerated, born of God, "saved."
 
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