Psalms 83, its coming..

Biblewriter said:

So an attack by "the people of Moab with the people of Ammon, and others with them besides the Ammonites," (2 Chronicles 20:1) is "The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assyria also has joined with them. (Psalm 83:6-8) ????

Yea, we get it.

Just another case of pretending that a very small parallel between a fact of history and part of a prophecy means the prophecy has been fulfilled. This is typical of the nonsense of Preterism.

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No Biblewriter, what it really is is the total disregard of what this Psalm is really about.

The "tents of Edom" are descendants of Esau. Try reading the chapter of 2 Chronicles 20...and please note it describes people of a region coming against them. Look at those regions geographically because at this point you really have no argument.

ebedmelech said:

No Biblewriter, what it really is is the total disregard of what this Psalm is really about.

The "tents of Edom" are descendants of Esau. Try reading the chapter of 2 Chronicles 20...and please note it describes people of a region coming against them. Look at those regions geographically because at this point you really have no argument.

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This only proves your extreme ignorance of ancient geography. The Edomites occupied the regions now known as southern Jordan and Northern Saudi Arabia. And all the other nations named in this list occupied wholly different regions, some from as far away from the lands of Edom as the coast of the Mederiteranan Sea (The Philistines in the south and Tyre in the north) and some from ever farther away in the opposite direction. (Assyria)

AMEN..

I must go read Micah now about 50 times.. it's clearly been to long since feasting upon this wondrous truth.

Biblewriter, your post #2 is excellent. Your Micah quote surely refers to the Anti-Christ.
But I disagree about Isaiah 66:7-9...“Can a nation be born in a single day?” This passage has been quoted extensively about the current Jewish State of Israel. It cannot apply to them, as it took at least 50 years for Israel to come to fruition, with great expense and difficulties. [labor pangs]
To say that the present Jewish State was formed in one day, the day it was declared, or the later day when the UN ratified it, is a pretentious statement. But the prophecies, yet to be fulfilled, about how His people – righteous Israel, will return to the Land, confirms that these verses belong to them. Isaiah 11:11-12
Look at verse 6, that refers to the Lord's Day of wrath and more clearly described in verses 15-17. That hasn't happened yet, nor has the gathering of ALL His righteous people, as per verse 18b-24.
I suggest that everyone, [incl Interplannner] read carefully Isaiah 66 and realize how the world is in a state of 'choosing what displeases Me', in other words, once again 'as in the days of Noah', and the Lord is about to correct the situation.

Biblewriter said:

This only proves your extreme ignorance of ancient geography. The Edomites occupied the regions now known as southern Jordan and Northern Saudi Arabia. And all the other nations named in this list occupied wholly different regions, some from as far away from the lands of Edom as the coast of the Mederiteranan Sea (The Philistines in the south and Tyre in the north) and some from ever farther away in the opposite direction. (Assyria)

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Ignorance???

Biblewriter...when you approach a passage such as Psalm 83 without really finding the full picture it is you who lapse into extreme ignorance!

There's a lot more to this Psalm than 2 Chronicles 20!!! I assumed you knew that. Have you really read that Psalm and reflected on it?

Perhaps you should do that because once again...(just as you do with Micah and Isaiah 10) you lapse into your "dispensational denial" of historical facts.

Such it is with futurism...and the real pity is that it fails to acknowledge things that God has done!

Then comes a prophecy like Isaiah 14, 15, 16, that gives historical foundation.

I guess you better go read...

ebedmelech said:

Ignorance???

Biblewriter...when you approach a passage such as Psalm 83 without really finding the full picture it is you who lapse into extreme ignorance!

There's a lot more to this Psalm than 2 Chronicles 20!!! I assumed you knew that. Have you really read that Psalm and reflected on it?

Perhaps you should do that because once again...(just as you do with Micah and Isaiah 10) you lapse into your "dispensational denial" of historical facts.

Such it is with futurism...and the real pity is that it fails to acknowledge things that God has done!

Then comes a prophecy like Isaiah 14, 15, 16, that gives historical foundation.

I guess you better go read...

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Actually, I am quite certain that I have given much more attention to these scriptures that you could imagine. Rather than "a 'dispensationalist denial' of historical facts," what I have done is carefully compared these scriptures with historical facts, and cataloged the differences between what they say and the historical facts that they are alleged to refer to. Thus, I have conclusively proved that these prophecies cannot even possibly be about the historical facts they are alleged to refer to.

Preterists systematically take a well established historical fact that "sort of" fits a very small part of a prophecy, and simply ignore the many details that either were not met or that are the very opposite of what history says happened. This is not "paying attention to history." It is a failure to pay attention to that actual words used by the Holy Ghost. And it is simply glossing over the many inconsistencies between the words of the Holy Ghost and the historical facts.

It never ceases to amaze me that out of the 2500 uses of the OT by the NT, it is the ones that the NT does not use that get the most futurist attention. Ps 83. Ezek 38, 39. It is a totally amateur theology.

This week I read Ps 78. Here's some notes: 1, the expression "God utterly forsook Israel forever" is right there! Wait! I was told by futurists this can never happen! And it is not even about the Babylonian captivity or the DofJ; it's about a judgement out in the desert pilgrimage before the conquest!

2, the realization of everything promised to the patriarchs is the Davidic kingdom. It already happened! So this is a view of Israel, where, before we even get to the NT era, the people have already 1, been utterly forsaken, and 2, the optimum blessing has been reached in the times of David and Solomon.

Now, imagine the NT coming along in this setting. Yes, "restore the fortunes" of Israel might appear to be a return to that golden age, but the prophecies always have bits and pieces of a completely new twist. For one, there's that pouring out of the Spirit thing, and that was never back there in the golden age. The whole thing is a set up for something brand new to occur, even if the labels of the golden age are used.

The direction prophecy was going really was very different from what had happened the first time around. It would have been a total mistake to be stuck in the literalism of had happened, because line after line of the prophets threw in brand new features.

In the gospel account that attacks Judaism's literalism the most, there is Jesus answering Israel about its literal: "we have heard of the Law (Scripture) that Messiah will remain for ever (reign like David did)." That was considered darkness; Christ and his Gospel and mission were considered light.

keras said:

Biblewriter, your post #2 is excellent. Your Micah quote surely refers to the Anti-Christ.
But I disagree about Isaiah 66:7-9...“Can a nation be born in a single day?” This passage has been quoted extensively about the current Jewish State of Israel. It cannot apply to them, as it took at least 50 years for Israel to come to fruition, with great expense and difficulties. [labor pangs]
To say that the present Jewish State was formed in one day, the day it was declared, or the later day when the UN ratified it, is a pretentious statement. But the prophecies, yet to be fulfilled, about how His people – righteous Israel, will return to the Land, confirms that these verses belong to them. Isaiah 11:11-12
Look at verse 6, that refers to the Lord's Day of wrath and more clearly described in verses 15-17. That hasn't happened yet, nor has the gathering of ALL His righteous people, as per verse 18b-24.
I suggest that everyone, [incl Interplannner] read carefully Isaiah 66 and realize how the world is in a state of 'choosing what displeases Me', in other words, once again 'as in the days of Noah', and the Lord is about to correct the situation.

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I regret that I did not state my post clearly enough to make my meaning clear. What I said was:

"Before we read of where Christ was to be born, we read that 'they will strike the judge of Israel with a rod on the cheek' (verse 1) Then, in verse 3, we read that 'Therefore He shall give them up.' So this Old Testament prophecy clearly foretold the rejection of Christ by Judah, and of its consequence; the rejection of Judah by their God. But it also defined how long this rejection of Judah will last. It will last, 'Until the time that she who is in labor has given birth.' (verse 3)

This is an obvious reference to the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, 'Before she was in labor, she gave birth; Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children.' (Isaiah 66:7-8)

After 'she who is in labor has given birth,' 'Then the remnant of His brethren Shall return to the children of Israel.' (Micah 5:3) From this we see that the subject matter of this prophecy extends all the way from the birth and rejection of Christ to the future time of restoration for Israel."

The point of this passage was not to apply any portion of it to the present Jewish state, but to prove, beyond the possibility of a doubt, that "the subject matter of this prophecy extends all the way from the birth and rejection of Christ to the future time of restoration for Israel."

I agree completely with you that the present Jewish state is most certainly not a fulfillment of these prophecies. In fact, their twentieth century return to the land was not prophesied anywhere in all of the Bible. But it was required for most of Bible prophecy to be fulfilled. For the end time scenario presented in the scriptures opens with Judah in her land. Since she had been finally cast out around 1800 years earlier, her return was necessary for the prophecies to be fulfilled, and was thus (quite incorrectly) hailed as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

But the condition of the present Jewish state is indeed presented in Bible prophecy. For when the end time scenario opens, Judah is indeed in her land, but she is there in a state of rebellion against her God. The prophecies about the first half of Daniel's seventieth week describe the general wickedness of both the people and their rulers, with only a few righteous individuals here and there among them. See, for instance, Psalm 40:9-10 and Psalm 58.

Interesting to hear you go against the popular grain, BW. Glad you're making the calls as you see them.

Eschatology that deals with passages not already interp'd by the NT's 2500 uses seems like an amateur way to do things. The birth and nation themes are already in those 2500.

Interplanner said:

Interesting to hear you go against the popular grain, BW. Glad you're making the calls as you see them.

Eschatology that deals with passages not already interp'd by the NT's 2500 uses seems like an amateur way to do things. The birth and nation themes are already in those 2500.

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I never go along with the popular grain. I go by the scriptures themselves.

It is very popular to spend time on Ps 83 and Ezek 38-39 and know almost nothing about how the NT uses the OT. I'm currently in dialogue with people who don't know the new people or nation theme of the vineyard parable, and so they don't know its repeated in Eph 2-3 with all the usual technical covenant terminology about Israel.

Interplanner said:

It never ceases to amaze me that out of the 2500 uses of the OT by the NT, it is the ones that the NT does not use that get the most futurist attention. Ps 83. Ezek 38, 39. It is a totally amateur theology.

This week I read Ps 78. Here's some notes: 1, the expression "God utterly forsook Israel forever" is right there! Wait! I was told by futurists this can never happen! And it is not even about the Babylonian captivity or the DofJ; it's about a judgement out in the desert pilgrimage before the conquest!

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??? That's not even what it says!!! The only use of "olam" on Psalm 78 is about "His enemies," not about "Israel." (verse 66) Then it goes on the describe the further mercies to the people.

2, the realization of everything promised to the patriarchs is the Davidic kingdom. It already happened! So this is a view of Israel, where, before we even get to the NT era, the people have already 1, been utterly forsaken, and 2, the optimum blessing has been reached in the times of David and Solomon.

The difference between God's rejection of the wocked and His eternal salvation of Israel was highlighted by the promise, made long after the Davadic kingdom, in the words:

16 They shall be ashamed And also disgraced, all of them; They shall go in confusion together, Who are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation; You shall not be ashamed or disgraced Forever and ever.
Isaiah 45:16-1

God's actual promise to Israel, made long after the Davadic kingdom, was:

7 "For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you.
8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," Says the LORD, your Redeemer.
9 "For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.
10 For the mountains shall depart And the hills be removed, But My kindness shall not depart from you, Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed," Says the LORD, who has mercy on you.
Isaiah 54:7-10

And:

19 And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
20 "Thus says the LORD: 'If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season,
21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' "
Jeremiah 33:19-22

Now, imagine the NT coming along in this setting. Yes, "restore the fortunes" of Israel might appear to be a return to that golden age, but the prophecies always have bits and pieces of a completely new twist. For one, there's that pouring out of the Spirit thing, and that was never back there in the golden age. The whole thing is a set up for something brand new to occur, even if the labels of the golden age are used.

The direction prophecy was going really was very different from what had happened the first time around. It would have been a total mistake to be stuck in the literalism of had happened, because line after line of the prophets threw in brand new features.

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Yes, the promises contain many new features that were not in the old kingdom. zread, for instance, the last third of Ezekiel.

In the gospel account that attacks Judaism's literalism the most, there is Jesus answering Israel about its literal: "we have heard of the Law (Scripture) that Messiah will remain for ever (reign like David did)." That was considered darkness; Christ and his Gospel and mission were considered light.

Click to expand...

The darkness Jesus referred to here was not their literalism, but their failure to consider all the prophecies that must be literally fulfilled. They loved the prophecies about their great military deliverer who would live forever, but had ignored the many other prophecies about the suffering servant who would give his life for the sheep.

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I'm just astounded that you can quote Is 54 (which is right after 53) and think it is about a modern return to the land, and that with all the use of the new covenant theme by the NT, you think it is the same. You are Gospel-less when you go to work.

You are right, by the way, about forever not being in Ps 73:59; instead the word is completely. enjoy the alternative.

My complaint of the 1000 year offset still stands, and you have missed what Jn 12:34 is about.

They were never told the military ruler would come back, and there would be an acute conflict of purpose if he did! that is the darkness. "My kingdom of not of this world" has to do with type, not time. All the things that sound like the previous (ruling the 12 tribes) are borrowed about the new kingdom to provide something tangible, but not meant to be taken to be signals to pull swords!

Interplanner said:

I'm just astounded that you can quote Is 54 (which is right after 53) and think it is about a modern return to the land, and that with all the use of the new covenant theme by the NT, you think it is the same. You are Gospel-less when you go to work.

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The truth is, that dispensationalists have always been the most energetic preachers of the gospel in the world.

You are right, by the way, about forever not being in Ps 73:59; instead the word is completely. enjoy the alternative.

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So you admit that you consciously changed what God said to something else, and then used that as an argument?

The truth is that the God not only did not say that He would destroy destroy Israel forever, In this Psalm (83) He did not even say He would destroy Israel at all. He said He would destroy His enemies, not Israel.

But more than that, God never said He would destroy Israel completely. In fact, He explicitly said the very opposite. "Do not fear, O Jacob My servant," says the LORD, 'For I am with you; For I will make a complete end of all the nations To which I have driven you, But I will not make a complete end of you. I will rightly correct you, For I will not leave you wholly unpunished.'" (Jeremiah 46:28)

My complaint of the 1000 year offset still stands, and you have missed what Jn 12:34 is about.

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And I answer that you have totally wrested this passage, (John12:34-36) just as you wrest much of the rest of the New Testament.

Just to be clear, can we say that

1) the Psalm 83 coalition war installs the Assyrian and Edom (who has an ancient grudge against Israel)? (Israel is forced to serve its enemies.)

2) And this is "Jacob's trouble"/ 3.5 years?

3) How does the Assyrian come to his end? Is this where the millstone comes to destroy the Assyrian who is in Jerusalem (Mystery Babylon)?

4) And then comes the Gog war, yes?

In Ezekiel 35 and 36, we have the Psalm 83 war. Mount Seir is Edom who wants to control Judah and Israel.

Ezek 36:26-38 describes/ parallels Dan 9's call to restore Jerusalem unto the messiah, the rebuilding of Jerusalem and shame for sins. At the end of which, they will be cleansed. Compare Ezekiel 36:26-38 KJV - A new heart also will I give you, and a - Bible Gateway with Daniel 9:4-19 - I prayed to the LORD my God and - Bible Gateway

Ezekiel 37 is the "dry bones" prophecy which correlates to the 3.5 days that the 2 witnesses are "raised up". ( Compare Rev 11:11-14 with Ezek 37)
Revelation 11:11-14 KJV - And after three days and an half the - Bible Gateway

Ezekiel 37 - The Valley of Dry Bones - The hand of - Bible Gateway

Then the gog war in Ezek 38, 39.

The pattern seems to be the 2300 configuration: 150 days (1st woe/ Trumpet 5), (start of the Trumpet 6 and 2nd woe) 396 days, 1260 days for the temple to be given to the gentiles, 3.5 days for the 2 witnesses (end of 2nd woe), then Dan 9's 490 days until the "most holy" place is anointed (= 2300).

Ezekiel would then be mirroring this: the Psalm 83 war (Ezekiel 35, 36) installs the Assyrian (probably referring to Turkey/ Istanbul/ Pergamom seat of Satan?) and Edom (which means "red earth") for 1260 days. (the Assyrian or the Edom character would be the Dan 7 little horn (not the Dan 8 little horn who wars against Christ at the end of the 70 weeks period), the 11th horn that comes up among the 10 horns - if you go through Psalm 83, there are 11 groups mentioned).

Then the "dry bones" coming to life of Ezekiel 37 for 3.5 days, then the rebuilding of Jerusalem after being hit by a "millstone" for the 490 days/ 70 weeks.

The Gog war (Russia/ Iran and the coalition of 8 others) of Ezekiel 38, 39 must come at the end of the 490 days, or sometime after. (because the 1000 years can mean 1 year with the Lord). The Gog war would correlate to Dan 9:25's "troublous times".

I don't know how you can miss the DofJ when Ezek speaks of the 3.5 and the two witnesses.

Biblewriter said:

Actually, I am quite certain that I have given much more attention to these scriptures that you could imagine. Rather than "a 'dispensationalist denial' of historical facts," what I have done is carefully compared these scriptures with historical facts, and cataloged the differences between what they say and the historical facts that they are alleged to refer to. Thus, I have conclusively proved that these prophecies cannot even possibly be about the historical facts they are alleged to refer to.

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I don't think you have. How many other OT prophets prophesied these events?

Biblewriter said:

Preterists systematically take a well established historical fact that "sort of" fits a very small part of a prophecy, and simply ignore the many details that either were not met or that are the very opposite of what history says happened. This is not "paying attention to history." It is a failure to pay attention to that actual words used by the Holy Ghost. And it is simply glossing over the many inconsistencies between the words of the Holy Ghost and the historical facts.

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This is the typical dispensational response Biblewriter. Attack those who acknowledge the historical facts. Make "preterism" a slander because you would rather stick to your futurism despite the facts.

I surely hope the Lord will discuss these thing with us...but the fact is, in eternity it doesn't matter.

The only way that I can figure the beliefs of Interplanner and Ebedmelech, is from the prophecy of Isaiah 29:9-12...the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep stupor....
Just that passage in Isaiah 66:7-9 as I discussed with BW, is an example of yet to be fulfilled prophecy. We have the NT prophesies yet to come, and plenty of OT ones await their final fulfilment.
Yes, Luke 21:20-24 was fulfilled circa 70 CE, but the Revelation dramas, etc, are still to be played out.
Why are you two so determined to make every effort to denigrate and refute what people post on this eschatology part of Christian Forums? Do you feel you must fight against what you perceive to be error? You both actually cause disruption in these threads and make it difficult for those genuine seekers, like tranquil, to come to a true understanding of what God has for our future.
It does say in Forum rules; 'no full preterists allowed'. You may not think you are a full preterest, but the way you argue against future prophecy, it sure seems that way. I ask respectfully therefore, that you IP and EM, please not be so hasty to jump in with your views and have some respect for what others believe.