Double Predestination/Predestinarianism

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 16, 2014

JustAsIam77 said:
Alfred, I humbly suggest you may be in the wrong forum, your exegesis of scripture is in direct opposition to Reformed theology.

I thought about responding to him, started what would have been a long post for me, but decided not to, because I do not have time to waste on posts that may get deleted. A moderator should be notified and delete the person's posts, which are most likely "cut and paste" jobs used anywhere allowed. He is clearly violating forum policy/rules and his position is clear: "I don't confess TULIP, limited atonement is unscriptural" - Alfred

Alfred Persson · Apr 16, 2014

JustAsIam77 said:
Alfred, I humbly suggest you may be in the wrong forum, your exegesis of scripture is in direct opposition to Reformed theology.

My mistake, which forum is the correct one to discuss predestination etc?

JM · Apr 16, 2014

[FONT=&quot]Alfred, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Others have already pointed out that we have endured your Arminianism longer than forum rules allow. We have shown kindness to you by doing so even though your posts are argumentative.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

God closed the eye of those He will punish (Isaiah 29:9-12),

Click to expand...

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Yes, God withheld mercy and compassion, in response to their hypocrisy. They chose evil, therefore God no longer illuminates their mind.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Nonsense. God doesn't not "illuminate their mind" like some cosmic buddha seeking to enlighten everyone. You went on to quote Isa. 29.13-14 with the repeated presupposition already stated numerous times throughout this thread. You deny the total inability of mankind by assume ones will has to be violated for them to do evil but that isn't so. One willing acts according to their nature and God actively hardens their hearts. You are simply playing word games and trying to stir up trouble.

This is "passive hardening," they chose the wrong way, therefore they reap what they sow. No violation of their free will here, they blinded themselves first, everything after that, is giving them what the chose:
9 Pause and wonder! Blind yourselves and be blind! They are drunk, but not with wine; They stagger, but not with intoxicating drink (Isa 29:9 NKJ)

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What takes place in time cannot be the motivating cause of what is decreed in eternity. God is not passive in anything. Nothing outside of God can cause God to decree from eternity, and that includes good and bad. Predestination is the free following cause of God's determinative will and He decrees what He finds pleasing. In light of this all that takes place in time is purposed from eternity for God's glory alone.

do not pray for reprobate (Jeremiah 7:16),

Ripped out of context to teach God causes men to do evil, when in fact these are reprobate because they rejected God. He rose up early speaking, earnestly trying to reason with them, yet they rejected Him. Therefore they are reprobate, because that is what they chose to be.
Read in context, its no longer a pretext teaching God inspires evil:

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sophistry. "Whom he will, he hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18, 22)

What you suggestion places man the cause of God's decree. Creator is therefore subservient to the creature. You are confusing the outward call of the prophet to national Israel with the inward revealing of God's word to the elect and that word is: do not pray for those who are reprobate.

the son of perdition was lost on purpose, to fulfill scripture (John 17:12)

Ripped out of context, parallel texts prove it was Judas who lifted up his heel, not God:

18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled,`He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' (Joh 13:18 NKJ)

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, Judas "lifted up his heel." Why? To fulfill scripture. It explains perfectly why Judas did so.

some are vessels of fitted for destruction (Romans 9:21-22)

Ripped out of context, you ignored Paul's explanation how God hardens hearts:

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God hardens hearts based on love. "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Before they were born, before having done "any good or evil" God elected. This is a wonderful display of God's grace and purpose. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

NOTICE Pharaoh's hardening his own heart = "as the LORD had said":

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pharaoh was reprobate for a purpose (Exodus 9:16)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"
"he harden his heart"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God harden Pharaoh's heart 16 times. I would say that pretty active...wouldn't you? haha

Ripping verses out of context to teach God causes evil, is a serious blasphemy. There is no other way to describe it. Sovereign God has the right to accomplish His purposes, but you slander God claiming He blinded these to torment them eternally:

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Your profane posts amount to human idolatry. Plain and simple. You have reversed your roll as creature to that of creator. You have posted sacrilegiously, irreverently handing the word of God to promote your works based religion. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When the rubber meets the road that's all it is. You saying the cause of predestination is man. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is blasphemy.

some are blinded (Romans 11:7),

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Let me guess...a Dispensaitonalist, right? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Rather than an evil God of Reprobation, we have all Israel that was blinded by God, saved! One whose depth of riches of Mercy causes Paul to sing praises!

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Anyone else notice how Al skipped a few key verses?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day. Rom 11:8[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God did it. God gave them the spirit of slumber. compare to Isa. 6

How different the God of the Bible is, to the god of Calvin.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps you mean to include Luther and Zwingli as well? They all agreed on this subject. What is different is how one comes to the word of God. A worldly, humanistic individual arrives at his conclusions of scripture from a human, man centred view. Any idea that dethrones him as creator or master of his fate, is swept under the theological rug with fancy sophistry and word games...as clearly demonstrated by Al.

some men were ordained to condemnation (Jude 4)

Ripped out of ...

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Anyone else notice Al's pattern? Pretend outrage followed by "ripped out of context." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The passage reads, "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation" Not that difficult to understand is it. They were ordained by judicial hardening for the task they were fulfilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

God led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19:14)

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What was Isaiah's mission?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Isa 6:8-11)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To preach for the active reprobation of Israel.

In response to their evil, God judged them, sending them a strong delusion just as He will those who do not love the truth in the end time (2 Thess 2:10):

The Expositors Bible Commentary: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel (Vol. 6, p. 127). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You're reaching with a cut and paste. Only proves my point. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

God created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4)

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Context exists for a reason, its so you don't get it wrong:

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Proverbs[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (p. 154). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And of course, it doesn't change the fact that God's glory will be found in the salvation or damnation of humanity, either way. Again, you're reaching for like minded commentators to find support instead of reading the word as it stands. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

and we read in the parable that some will not see the Gospel and be hardened. That is evil, wicked men are hardened further by God. (Luke 8:10)

On the contrary, in response to choices made, eyes either see or not. Those who rather believe the Devil than God,

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here it is folks. The idea of libertarian free will. Humanity is enslaved to sin, children of their father the devil, not wounded by sin and free to make up their own course in life. We act freely only in accordance with our nature and our nature is evil. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

have the word snatched away; Those who don't allow the word a place in their hearts, soon , fall away; Those who love the riches and pleasures of life, bring no fruit to maturity.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The seed of the word is never snatched from good soil, the soil prepared by God and given increase by God. That is why faith is listed as a gift of the Spirit more than once.

You have turned Christ's words on their head, and made God the fault for their falling away.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rather, I make God the reason for the Saints NOT falling away. Evil, wicked humanity are hardened by God. Evil, wicked humanity is saved by God. Either way it is God who will be glorified...one way or the other. You seemed to think highly of fallen man. I do not. I must rely on Christ alone, grace alone, for His glory alone. Amen.

There are no proofs God corrupts men hearts so they do evil, that demonic idea is not found in scripture.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You are twisting what has been posted to suit your...hey, wait a minute...you've been twisting posts and scripture throughout this thread. The pattern is established. haha

[/FONT]

JM · Apr 16, 2014

[FONT=&quot]

If you happen upon a verse that seems to suggest James is wrong (James 1:13-15) about evil desires springing up from men's hearts, and that God is NOT the author of evil desires, I suggest you admit you are misreading the text. Just as you have all the above texts. You are reading into the scripture, a demonic idea that is definitely contradicted by the Scripture. I suggest you do that with those paltry few texts, that seem to suggest James is wrong about God. He is not, Calvin is.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bravo, bravo! Wonderful performance. You have really outdone yourself this time. Bravado and machismo seem to drip from your keyboard! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God is not the author of evil in a moral sense (covered several times now in the forum) and God does not need to inspire fallen man to be evil. Evil is decreed. Reprobation is decreed. That is what has been posted. You are performing now...

Nearby my home, coming down from the mountain, there is a river where water seems to travel up hill, because of the incline of its surroundings. But its an optical illusion. Upon seeing it, I know its impossible water travel up hill, I purposely disregard what seems to be the case, because I know the context proves it is not so.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH6Acpzurb0[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]haha

How can anyone imagine causing men to do evil, and be lost eternally, is something the Father of lights would do, in whom there is no variation or shadow of unrighteousness.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is just ridicules. Too many straw men. You just keep them rolling...you must have little else to do.

Like a diamond turned in the light, God shines from every aspect.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Very poetic. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Calvin's god of predestined reprobation however, shines only if you happen to be one of God's elect.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Well, heck yah. It reduces man to nothing and God's perfect glory and holiness, His justice and mercy "shines forth." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Everyone else, sees only the dark side. That is not the God of the Bible.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is true. Those who reject the sovereignty of God, who do not presuppose it in their practical theology or reject it outright for false religion, view the idea as dark. Al's god wants to control the creator. Al's god is small. Al's god...is a lot like this...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIETlxquzY[/FONT]

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 16, 2014

Alfred Persson said:
My mistake, which forum is the correct one to discuss predestination etc?

Seriously? You joined this site in 2005, have posted 1,000+ times and I just spotted you here: http://www.christianforums.com/f83/

Be honest now...

JM · Apr 16, 2014

I'm sorry folks (not really) for my sarcasm. (haha)

Don't you folks get tired of hearing the same Arminian arguments rehashed over and over? The false humility? The straw men? The fake outrage?

I sure do.

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 16, 2014

JM said:
I'm sorry folks (not really) for my sarcasm. (haha)

Don't you folks get tired of hearing the same Arminian arguments rehashed over and over? The false humility? The straw men? The fake outrage?

I sure do.

I think we all have at least a touch of Martin Luther in us.

Alfred Persson · Apr 16, 2014

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Seriously? You joined this site in 2005, have posted 1,000+ times and I just spotted you here: http://www.christianforums.com/f83/

Be honest now...

I am, why didn't you answer the question?

But I can do a search and figure it out.

I reposted it here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7816884/#post65410554

Feel free to post your response there.

Anyone want to continue this discussion with me, must go there. I'm done here.

JM · Apr 16, 2014

Alfred, imagine the reaction of the RC's if I started posted in their forum denying their teaching on the Eucharist or the Baptist forum about baptism. I would expect to raise a ruckus. That's all. This thread was for in house discussion between like minded believers. You posted enough contrary material to get us on defensive, so it may seem like we piled on when we were really just being polite by letting you have your say. We have plenty of posts to read through and plenty of subjects discussed in the debate forum. It might be a good idea to read through them before starting up another brawl.

jm

abacabb3 · Apr 17, 2014

JM said:
Alfred, imagine the reaction of the RC's if I started posted in their forum denying their teaching on the Eucharist or the Baptist forum about baptism. I would expect to raise a ruckus. That's all. This thread was for in house discussion between like minded believers. You posted enough contrary material to get us on defensive, so it may seem like we piled on when we were really just being polite by letting you have your say. We have plenty of posts to read through and plenty of subjects discussed in the debate forum. It might be a good idea to read through them before starting up another brawl.

jm

That's why the moment Alfred clearly became adversarial, as I wasn't sure if he was arminian or not, I had no interest speaking to him or tolerating his attitude. I will debate on another forum, but here we are not doing a measuring contest, but seriously contemplating the nature of God's justice. It is a very serious discussion and to drag it into a nonsensical debate, much of it over terminology, is to me not only disrespectful to one another, but also to God.

Talking about the decreed eternal fates of people is amongst the most serious things that can possibly be discussed. Snide comments like "try again" and such in a discussion like this are totally unneccesary and tasteless.

Skala · Apr 17, 2014

JM said:
I'm sorry folks (not really) for my sarcasm. (haha)

Don't you folks get tired of hearing the same Arminian arguments rehashed over and over? The false humility? The straw men? The fake outrage?

I sure do.

Indeed, but we can't let it run rampant, misguiding people.

JustAsIam77 · Apr 17, 2014

Alfred Persson said:
My mistake, which forum is the correct one to discuss predestination etc?

You are obviously not a fan of TULIP, I suggest you try the sub forum here 'debate with a Calvinist' and several sub forums in theology where there are many like minded believers in your camp, Christian apologetics, covenant theology and soteriology to name a few.

abacabb3 · Apr 21, 2014

Guys, how about this verse:

For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them. (John 12:39-40)

Is this just about God willing it by default that men would not repent of their own will so that they may not boast, or is there a purposeful hardening?

stenerson · Apr 24, 2014

abacabb3 said:
Guys, how about this verse:

For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them. (John 12:39-40)

Is this just about God willing it by default that men would not repent of their own will so that they may not boast, or is there a purposeful hardening?

We are blinded by our flesh/desires/nature. We are also blinded by "the god of this world ." God can at any time prevent this, fix this.. We have passages in the OT where God sends an evil spirit to confuse or to torment.
How passive is it? Well I don't believe He tempts anyone, or creates fresh evil..He has the sovereign right to withdraw his influence, benevolence, protection, light, comfort etc. And also to give devil permission to have at it. Anyway, that's the way I see it from many instances in old and new testament.

abacabb3 · Apr 25, 2014

stenerson said:
How passive is it? Well I don't believe He tempts anyone, or creates fresh evil..He has the sovereign right to withdraw his influence, benevolence, protection, light, comfort etc. And also to give devil permission to have at it. Anyway, that's the way I see it from many instances in old and new testament.

Well, Satan can tempt a man but not devise new sin in his heart. Ahab, before he was killed in battle, was deliberating as to what he should do so he already desired sin, the false prophets who deceived him merely brought it out. It seems to me pretty clear that God allows Satan to run amok in this regard to a certain limit determined by God and appears to be the chief source of "hardening."

Now the case of demon possession, which seems to be much more rare anyway, poses greater difficulties. We have examples in the New Testament where demon-possessed people appear to be ruled entirely by the demonic realm and not by their own free will whatsoever (like the guy who had the "Legion" of demons in him).

Perhaps such "possession" brings out the true depravity of a man's heart? However, people with such a level of possession exhibit super feats of strength (Mark 5:3) which seems to imply something more than temptation.

Certainly a confusing subject. But this actually goes back to another thread I started here about the idea of God being the author of evil. God can create calamity and use evil for good, and not be evil Himself. It seems we are forced into logical contradictions when we make very strong assertions about God not being "the author of sin" such as found in the reformed confessions, when all the Scripture says that God Himself tempts no one to evil. It says nothing about exactly how or why God made Satan, whom personifies evil, which would give God a hand in its origin anyway. I'm willing to accept that no evil originates with God if that's what the Scripture says, but we don't exactly have a declarative statement like that.

abacabb3 · May 8, 2014

Here's another verse where it appears explicit that God willed an event so that the repentence of the sinner would not occur:

If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death. (1 Sam 2:25)

I think this flies in the face of the idea that God desires that all may repent (2 Peter 3:9) so that they may not perish. I suppose, the only way to square the two is that there is a point that God will in His justice not be merciful and feel compelled to punish us for our sin. This means preventing repentence.

Am I going of the deep end with this?

Apologetic_Warrior · May 9, 2014

abacabb3 said:
Here's another verse where it appears explicit that God willed an event so that the repentence of the sinner would not occur:

If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him? But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death. (1 Sam 2:25)

I think this flies in the face of the idea that God desires that all may repent (2 Peter 3:9) so that they may not perish. I suppose, the only way to square the two is that there is a point that God will in His justice not be merciful and feel compelled to punish us for our sin. This means preventing repentence.

Am I going of the deep end with this?

I don't think you're going off the deep end at all, in fact the verse in question and the assumption that "all" means "everyone without exception" is completely ridiculous. There is only one way to interpret the verse in question in the context of Scripture and the facts of history. The "all" in the verse in question can only be referring to "all" of the elect, "all" of those God chose before the foundation of the world. To think that God knows all those whom will perish without repenting or coming to saving faith in Christ, while at the same time withholding His omnipotence to effect any change in the will of his creatures even if through secondary causes or means seriously falls into our hands when we jest to non-Calvinists of man's sovereign will which is no doubt insulting because they claim God is sovereign the same as we do, but the difference is they are inconsistent about it, where we maintain a consistency...not with mere human reason...but with Scripture the Word of God.

Here's another problem with interpreting the verse in question as non-Calvinists do...if it is God's will that everyone, all of mankind should come to repentance, then God has and is doing a MIGHTY poor job of bringing about HIS desired outcome, since the VAST MAJORITY of mankind, like the days of Noah, do not repent, do not believe in Christ, and die guilty, dead in sins and trespasses. To accept that interpretation in the face of the above, and continue to attempt and maintain that God is sovereign, is illogical, inconsistent, and quite frankly complete nonsense.

abacabb3 · May 9, 2014

Thanks, sometime times my best ideas don't come to mind after coming back from work at midnight.

I think your point is correct, that logically it appears that God does not only desire the repentence of sinners, not only because there are explicit examples where God does not want it like here, Isaiah 6 and John 12; but also because logically it makes no sense. Even if we believe in an "omnipotent" God that cannot violate free will because of some sort of imaginary gentleman's pact with man or something like all the non-Calvinists do, can't an all powerful God draw greater attention to Himself to bring about repentence? WHy doesn't He appear to all of us like He did to Paul? WHy doesn't He crush Satan, like, yesterday? Why doesn't He have angels come talk to all of us like COrnelius? Clearly, the will of God CANNOT be to encourage all men to repent just that observation alone.

However, tossing and turning in my bed, I thought of the following: why CAN'T God truly desire the repentence of ALL men including the non-elect AND the elect? Logically, we desire conflicting things all the time without being hypocrites. For example, I can desire to drink coconut flavored coffee every day. However, at the same time, I also desire not to be up all night and get addicted to coffee. I hold both desires simultaneously. Eventually, my will decides upon a decision in which best corresponds with my desires, and at some points, forcing me to choose one over the other (i.e. only drinking coconut flavored coffee sometimes).

So, what I posit is, we can understand that God wants all men to repent (2 Peter 3:9) and all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). However, He at the same time wants to make His mercy increasingly apparent by putting up with vessels of wrath (Rom 9:23, 24) and He blinds their hearts so that they will not repent and be healed so that they may be judged for their sin (John 12:40).

I think it is safe to say that the Scripture is safe to say that not all men are really saved, though God desires it, yet at the same time the Scripture is clear is that the way God works is that He does not have the same degree of mercy on all. If this be the case, there is no contradiction. God has competing, non-contradicting desires, like we do. He, in His perfect wisdom, love and justice chooses just the right choice. Apparently, it IS what we see now.

Double Predestination/Predestinarianism

Pilgrim

Well-Known Member

Augsburg Catholic

Augsburg Catholic

Pilgrim

Augsburg Catholic

Pilgrim

Well-Known Member

Augsburg Catholic

Newbie

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

Veritas Liberabit Vos

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Pilgrim

Newbie

Similar threads