Does the earth go 'round the sun or vice versa?

JacobLaw said:

Obliviously not; even the Papacy is Geocentric and it can't be overturned.... tough situation for those not in the know, the Catholic Church is going to be make a big change here in not the too distance future. ........ .

Click to expand...

I do not derive my cosmology from what you assert the "papacy" says (by the way, your are wrong about what the pope teaches). And there's nothing tough about deciding between the solar system being geocentric or heliocentric.

JacobLaw said:

Obliviously not; even the Papacy is Geocentric and it can't be overturned.... tough situation for those not in the know, the Catholic Church is going to be make a big change here in not the too distance future. ........ .

Click to expand...

For those not in the know: The sun is the center of the solar system. If you are so gung ho to prove us wrong, get into space and take a look yourself.

That the earth moves about its orbit around the sun with the rest of the planets in our solar system is indisputable fact. It requires a great deal of intentional ignorance to, in the 21st century, try and suggest otherwise.

But this does remind of why it is so supremely important that we read Scripture rightly and not try and treat the Bible like a science text book when that is neither its intent or purpose. The Bible no more has anything to tell us about the science of our relative position around the sun then it does about the topography of Sweden, or the mating habits of the silver-back gorilla.

The Scriptures are there to tell us about the God who has made Himself known by Christ Jesus our Lord, revealed and made flesh for us and for our salvation; that we might know God, and believe upon His Son, Jesus. That is what Scripture is there to accomplish.

-CryptoLutheran

Ah, well, to be honest this is not one I've studied out for myself. I have no problem simply accepting that the earth is round and orbits around the sun, and I don't see that it would discredit the Bible in any way. On the very extreme off chance that it is a hoax, I don't see it as a salvation issue either. Nor do I see it as a "proof" of the big bang theory, evolution, or anything else.

It seems a strange thing to rest one's view of Scripture on. The sun does appear to rise and set from our vantage point, and it doesn't make the Bible false that is says so. While I'm always interested and delighted when some little facet of Scripture is borne out by "new scientific discoveries" it isn't the foundation of my having faith.

There are a number of verses that mention God laying the "foundations of the earth" (Job 38:4, Is 48:13, Ps 102:25, Heb 1:10). Where are these foundations? Are they blocked out in some grid? Are they made like the foundation of a house? Does the earth "sit upon" them? Wouldn't that make the earth flat?

I don't need to speculate all these things and reach conclusions like that. I believe "In the beginning, God created ..." It doesn't matter to me how He laid the foundations of the earth, what they look like, what they are. I believe He did it because Scripture says so. No matter what scientific claims state, I still believe that truth, and offhand I can't think of any scientific claims that actually dispute it and can't live in harmony with that truth, both being true.

My faith is in the Scripture first and foremost. Scientific claims evolve with new discoveries. What was true yesterday has been disproven today. What is true today may be disproven tomorrow. Scripture is always true ... it just has to be looked at correctly. And generally speaking, it is not meant to be a science textbook, imo.

Actually it orbits the Barycenter of the Sun Earth system
(But that barycenter is within the diameter of the sun)

Achilles6129 said:

Could you please post Scriptures of where you think the Bible is saying that the sun goes around the earth?

Click to expand...

Here they are again but not limited too.

Sixty-Seven Scriptural References
Which Tell Us That It Is The Sun
And Not The Earth That Moves
Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."
15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."
19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."
28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."
32:31..... "...the sun rose...."
Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."
22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."
22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."
Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down...."
Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."
16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."
23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."
24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."
24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."
Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."
8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."
10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."
10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."
10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."
12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."
8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."
9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."
14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."
19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."
II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."
3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."
23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."
I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."
I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."
II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."
Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."
Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."
Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."
19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."
19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."
50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."
104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."
104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."
113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down
and hasteth to the place where he arose...."
Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."
38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."
38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."
41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."
59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."
Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."
Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."
Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."
Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."
Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."
Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."
Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."
Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."
13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."
Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."
4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."
16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."
Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."
Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."
James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."
That is a Total of 67 Verses in 35 Books of the Bible Which Say
that It Is the Sun that Moves and Not the Earth!
*******************
Here is the number of Verses and Books from the Bible Which Say
that It Is the Earth that Moves and Not the Sun:
0

Thanks for those references.

Once again, there is no dilemma between the Bible and the maths of modern planetary mechanics.

No dilemma at all.

It's just a question our frame of reference. And we can choose where that is.

If we choose our earth as our reference frame, the sun does indeed go around us. Just as the Bible says.

If we choose the solar system's center of mass as our reference frame, all of the planets circle the sun. Just as our solar system diagrams say.

It really is that easy. Any perceived dilemma is a manufactured one.

Of course the Bible is correct; it's God's word to us. And of course our understanding of planetary mechanics is correct; we successfully send probes to other planets.

Everyone is correct.

It is an indisputable fact that the local star of our solar system, commonly called the "sun", is the center of it, and all bodies local to it revolve around it.

It is also an indisputable fact that ancient Hebrew cosmology describes a geocentric model.

Thankfully, since Biblical literalism in terms of science and history is not part of orthodox Christian theology, the fact that the ancient Hebrews were innocently ignorant doesn't mean anything.

When we attempt to make the Bible an authority over matters of science, we aren't at all trying to retrograde back to Apostolic times...in fact, we're adhering to false history. What the ancient Jews thought shouldn't even matter to us Christians; they were wrong anyway, so why base our theology on bad interpretation of the Old Testament?

This is why orthodox Christianity is so appealing: it doesn't require us to believe in conspiracy theory for us to be right.

I think the following is relevant:

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge
There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.
In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat. -Ps 19:1-6


On the subject of the sun, day and night:

For the LORD God is a sun and shield... -Ps 84:11

Blessed are the people who know the joyful sound!
They walk, O LORD, in the light of Your countenance. -Ps 89:15

Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God. -Mat 5:8

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. -1 John 1:7

But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. -1 John 2:11


On the subject of the "tabernacle for the sun"

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. -Eph 2:19-22



On the subject of speech and knowledge:

These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. -1 Cor 2:13

Nanopants said:

I think the following is relevant:

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge
There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.
In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race. -Ps 19:1-6


On the subject of the sun, day and night:

For the LORD God is a sun and shield... -Ps 84:11

Blessed are the people who know the joyful sound!
They walk, O LORD, in the light of Your countenance. -Ps 89:15

Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God. -Mat 5:8

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. -1 John 1:7

But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. -1 John 2:11


On the subject of the "tabernacle for the sun"

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. -Eph 2:19-22



On the subject of speech and knowledge:

These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. -1 Cor 2:13

Click to expand...

A tabernacle FOR the sun is different than a tabernacle IN the sun. If it is FOR the sun, then the sun will be IN it.

Scientifically, thanks to the first Voyager probe, we know the solar system has a blanket made of solar wind, where the solar wind of the sun is in control. In about 5 years, the Voyager Probe will exit the blanket, where the solar wind of other stars in the galaxy has more effect than ours. That is pretty close to a tabernacle FOR the sun

JacobLaw said:

Here they are again but not limited too.

Sixty-Seven Scriptural References
Which Tell Us That It Is The Sun
And Not The Earth That Moves
Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."
15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."
19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."
28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."
32:31..... "...the sun rose...."
Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."
22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."
22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."
Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down...."
Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."
16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."
23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."
24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."
24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."
Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."
8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."
10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."
10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."
10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."
12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."
8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."
9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."
14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."
19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."
II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."
3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."
23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."
I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."
I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."
II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."
Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."
Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."
Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."
19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."
19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."
50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."
104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."
104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."
113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down
and hasteth to the place where he arose...."
Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."
38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."
38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."
41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."
59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."
Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."
Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."
Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."
Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."
Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."
Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."
Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."
Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."
13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."
Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."
4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."
16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."
Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."
Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."
James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."
That is a Total of 67 Verses in 35 Books of the Bible Which Say
that It Is the Sun that Moves and Not the Earth!
*******************
Here is the number of Verses and Books from the Bible Which Say
that It Is the Earth that Moves and Not the Sun:
0

Click to expand...

No. Those are 67 figures of speech. Heliocentric people say the sun rises, too. That doesn't mean they really mean that.

Where does the Bible say it is a science textbook and that it is specifically speaking to how the universe works in those specific verses? Are they talking about a period of time?

All 67 of them are referring to EVENTS set in a time of day

sculleywr said:

No. Those are 67 figures of speech. Heliocentric people say the sun rises, too. That doesn't mean they really mean that.

Where does the Bible say it is a science textbook and that it is specifically speaking to how the universe works in those specific verses? Are they talking about a period of time?

All 67 of them are referring to EVENTS set in a time of day

Click to expand...

That doesn't mean they really mean that

Click to expand...

Isn't that what the serpent told Eve, it sounds so familiar?

Yea, hath God said,

JacobLaw said:

Isn't that what the serpent told Eve, it sounds so familiar?

Yea, hath God said,

Click to expand...

No. I did not say "has God said." I said that God said it, but He was not making a scientific statement. Rather, He was speaking to man in a language that man could understand. Considering that the Hebrew word doesn't actually mean "Going down", but rather, simply going, it isn't even what God said:
Hebrew Lexicon :: H935 (KJV)

The earth goes around the sun, obviously, and that's how I voted. I voted this way because we've had numerous people actually go into space and witness this fact first-hand over the past 5+ decades that different space programs have been active.

It's not a matter of disbelieving what the bible says, anybody that accuses subscribers to heliocentrism of disbelieving the bible are incredibly dense - it's a matter of recognizing that the bible was never intended to be read like a science text book. It's filled with poetry, song, history and letters.

It's not a collection of scriptures that tell us how, it's a collection of scriptures that offer a portrait of why. Demanding that they offer concise scientific explanations of the cosmos is just like demanding that tacos sing perfectly in falsetto.

So stretching them over a subject matter that they were not meant for isn't just incorrect, it's criminal.

People, like the OP of the other thread, who continue to try and teach people poisonous understandings of scripture will have a lot to answer for. You see, we who see the cosmos as we empirically observe it, if we were wrong for some bizarre reason - oh well, no harm no foul because it's not a salvific issue. However, pitching a geocentric model in this day and age when the evidence so clearly points away from that, and when you have to do mental gymnastics to make the scriptures morph into a textbook to affirm that you reduce the Christian faith to a joke which repels people who might have otherwise taken it seriously and followed Christ.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Cogent said:

It's filled with poetry, song, history and letters.

Click to expand...

Dont forget that it also has the commandments of God, and the Gospel which provides the means for salvation.

There is also the fact that at least 27% of the Bible is literally prophecy.

Bit more than poetry, song, history and letters, quite a bit more..

7sForDays said:

Dont forget that it also has the commandments of God, and the Gospel which provides the means for salvation.

There is also the fact that at least 27% of the Bible is literally prophecy.

Bit more than poetry, song, history and letters, quite a bit more..

Click to expand...

I think he was referring to narrative styles, not content.

sculleywr said:

I think he was referring to narrative styles, not content.

Click to expand...

Right.

sculleywr said:

I think he was referring to narrative styles, not content.

Click to expand...

Those are literary functions.

Narrative styles are "1st person" or "3rd person omniscient focalized" to name a few.

7sForDays said:

Those are literary functions.

Narrative styles are "1st person" or "3rd person omniscient focalized" to name a few.

Click to expand...

Ummm. According to most humanities courses, narrative style is more complex than just simple first person. Style discusses HOW something is said, while function determines the MEANING and application of what is said. Prophecy occurs in the poetic psalms, the same as it occurs in discourse, stories, and even direct monologue. Much of the prophets (major and minor) are written in poetic style.