why people don't know about the Jewish War

Interplanner said:

That's hillarious. Just read Holford. It's 15 pages worth.

There are one or two things about Mt 24A that are problematic, but most of it belongs there. Problematic: people translate 'gea' as the whole earth, when it only means the Roman empire or sometimes only the land of Israel.

Click to expand...

Just read your bible.

Biblewriter said:

Except that it was impossible to flee Jerusalem after the event that you claim was the AoD. So if your interpretation were correct, Jesus gave an instruction that was impossible to obey. This is a fact that is well known to everyone who has bothered to actually study the history of that time.

So dint come with this nonsense that we do not realize it because we do not know the history. You can only imagine it because you do not know the actual history of that time.

Click to expand...

No...that's why Luke clearly said WHEN YOU SEE Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that her desolation is NEAR! THEN those who are in Judea MUST flee to the mountains!

Now we know the church was persecuted out of Jerusalem in Acts 8 (with the exception of the apostles)...so no Biblewriter, it was NOT impossible! It was point on what happened!

ebedmelech said:

No...that's why Luke clearly said WHEN YOU SEE Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that her desolation is NEAR! THEN those who are in Judea MUST flee to the mountains!

Now we know the church was persecuted out of Jerusalem in Acts 8 (with the exception of the apostles)...so no Biblewriter, it was NOT impossible! It was point on what happened!

Click to expand...

Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.


Luk 21:27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.




I cant for the life of me see how this is a past prophecy.

ebedmelech said:

No...that's why Luke clearly said WHEN YOU SEE Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that her desolation is NEAR! THEN those who are in Judea MUST flee to the mountains!

Now we know the church was persecuted out of Jerusalem in Acts 8 (with the exception of the apostles)...so no Biblewriter, it was NOT impossible! It was point on what happened!

Click to expand...

You are simply trying to escape a problem you cannot solve. We were speaking of the Abomination of desolation, which you falsely claim took place in AD 70. It makes zero difference whether the desecration that would count as the AoD was the desecration made by the Romans or the earlier ones made by the rebels, not even one of them took place before the city had already been totally sealed up, both on the outside by the Romans, and on the inside by the rebels. If you knew half as much about the account as you pretend to know, you would know that. That is why the instruction of Jesus could not even possibly be a reference to this siege.

For in Matthew 24:15-18 the lord very explicitly said, "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes."


Now you are trying to deflect this to a different instruction, to flee when they saw Jerusalem compassed about with armies. (Luke 21:20-21) In actuality, the Christians did this very thing, escaping to Pella.

Biblewriter said:

You are simply trying to escape a problem you cannot solve. We were speaking of the Abomination of desolation, which you falsely claim took place in AD 70. It makes zero difference whether the desecration that would count as the AoD was the desecration made by the Romans or the earlier ones made by the rebels, not even one of them took place before the city had already been totally sealed up, both on the outside by the Romans, and on the inside by the rebels. If you knew half as much about the account as you pretend to know, you would know that. That is why the instruction of Jesus could not even possibly be a reference to this siege.

For in Matthew 24:15-18 the lord very explicitly said, "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes."


Now you are trying to deflect this to a different instruction, to flee when they saw Jerusalem compassed about with armies. (Luke 21:20-21) In actuality, the Christians did this very thing, escaping to Pella.

Click to expand...

Biblewriter, I'm not escaping anything. You're the one that doesn't understand the abomination of desolation and how Jesus is using it.

I'm not going to do this with you again brother...let's just see if it happens like you think...I already know it won't.

The abomination of desolation was demonstrated and commited by Antiochus Epiphanes. The abomination is exactly what happen with Rome, Gentiles entered the holy place.

Many think the slaughtering of the pig on the alter and the erecting of a statue of Zeus was the abomination, but those things simply made it a more aggravating factor. When Antiochus entered the holy place, being a Gentile, he defiled it!

Rome did the same thing...and Jesus mentioned it because HE KNEW the disciples would understand exactly what it was He was saying. It was A SIGN TO THEM. The temple would be defiled, however that only mattered to all those many unbelieving Jews who were still walking by the Old Covenant. That's why they remained in the city trying to defend the temple. That which they held in honor above Jesus, was their downfall as the Lord judged them!

This is truly the 7 woes and the lamenting of Jerusalem that Christ gave in Matthew 23:13-39.

That is all.

Hey ebed, what year was the AofD?

What year or span of years did Daniels 70th week end?

Shocker said:

Hey ebed, what year was the AofD?

Click to expand...

167 BC

Shocker said:

What year or span of years did Daniels 70th week end?

Click to expand...

The seventy weeks are a span of 490 years...I hold that the 70th week ends with the stoning of Stephen, about 34 AD

ebedmelech said:

167 BC

The seventy weeks are a span of 490 years...I hold that the 70th week ends with the stoning of Stephen, about 34 AD

Click to expand...

So you believe that AofD in Daniels 70th week happened in 30ad, based on your belief that Daniels 70th week ended 34ad.

Correct?

Shocker said:

So you believe that AofD in Daniels 70th week happened in 30ad, based on your belief that Daniels 70th week ended 34ad.

Correct?

Click to expand...

No. The AoD has nothing to do with Daniel's 70th week. The AoD happens within the 70 weeks.

Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week, which ended sacrifice and offering mid 30 AD

The 70th week ended in 34AD when Stephen was stoned.

Shocker said:

Hey ebed, what year was the AofD?
What year or span of years did Daniels 70th week end?

Click to expand...

How may thousands of years in 70 weeks worth, Shocky?

That's a BIG camel...

Jipsah said:

How may thousands of years in 70 weeks worth, Shocky?

That's a BIG camel...

Click to expand...

I noticed you cant answer the question.

Thanks for trying tho.

Biblewriter said in post 11:

If the defiling of the temple that took place at that time was indeed the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet and referred to by Jesus, then Jesus gave the people an instruction that was impossible to carry out.

For the historical account of Josephus very clearly shows that this defilement took place after the city was totally sealed up, within and without, because of the Roman siege. This made the sudden flight that Jesus instructed them to take wholly impossible. For once the city was totally sealed up, flight was impossible.

This is one of the main proofs that the defilement that took place at that time was not what both Daniel and Jesus were speaking about.

Click to expand...

Great point.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they've stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part of it antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

Biblewriter said in post 11:

This is one of the main proofs that the defilement that took place at that time was not what both Daniel and Jesus were speaking about.

Click to expand...

It's also another proof that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For another proof, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

ebedmelech said in post 23:

No...that's why Luke clearly said WHEN YOU SEE Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that her desolation is NEAR! THEN those who are in Judea MUST flee to the mountains!

Click to expand...

When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he's referring to the 1st part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

ebedmelech said in post 23:

THEN those who are in Judea MUST flee to the mountains!

Click to expand...

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that this doesn't have to mean 1st-century-AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Interplanner said:

Don't try to find the right "calculation" of the 70 weeks; we don't know why there is a gap at 7-8 anyway. Go with the one official, apostolic interp.

Click to expand...

Congratulations on your conversion to dispensationalism. For a future revival of Israel is what the apostles taught.

ebedmelech said:

Biblewriter, I'm not escaping anything. You're the one that doesn't understand the abomination of desolation and how Jesus is using it.

I'm not going to do this with you again brother...let's just see if it happens like you think...I already know it won't.

The abomination of desolation was demonstrated and commited by Antiochus Epiphanes. The abomination is exactly what happen with Rome, Gentiles entered the holy place.

Many think the slaughtering of the pig on the alter and the erecting of a statue of Zeus was the abomination, but those things simply made it a more aggravating factor. When Antiochus entered the holy place, being a Gentile, he defiled it!

Rome did the same thing...and Jesus mentioned it because HE KNEW the disciples would understand exactly what it was He was saying. It was A SIGN TO THEM. The temple would be defiled, however that only mattered to all those many unbelieving Jews who were still walking by the Old Covenant. That's why they remained in the city trying to defend the temple. That which they held in honor above Jesus, was their downfall as the Lord judged them!

This is truly the 7 woes and the lamenting of Jerusalem that Christ gave in Matthew 23:13-39.

That is all.

Click to expand...

This is clearly incorrect. For "the Abomination of Desolation spoken if by Daniel the prophet" was still future when Jesus told them to flee with haste when they saw it.

Biblewriter said:

This is clearly incorrect. For "the Abomination of Desolation spoken if by Daniel the prophet" was still future when Jesus told them to flee with haste when they saw it.

Click to expand...

No. Jesus clearly said "(let the reader understand), obviously you don't. However like I said, I won't do this with you again.

ebedmelech said:

No. Jesus clearly said "(let the reader understand), obviously you don't. However like I said, I won't do this with you again.

Click to expand...

"Let the reader understand" means exactly that.

Jesus wouldn't warn about an event that was coming in the past.

Jesus is warning about an event that is coming in the future..


One that shoots your entire theory down if as you say Daniels 70th week is completed by 34ad.


Trust me Ebed, Ive yet to meet two Amils who share the exact same beliefs, yours are yet just another variance of the jello doctrine that is amil..