Proof For Pre-trib Rapture/ Part 2

Originally posted by Rize
...Revelation 11:15-19 says that the Your wrath came...

Click to expand...

Note that Revelation 11:18 says "thy wrath is come," which is in the aorist tense, not the past tense, for I believe it means that after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15) will be the time when the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) is come.

Originally posted by Rize
...That doesn't change where the sign appears...

Click to expand...

Could the events of the 6th seal be the "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5)?

Originally posted by postrib
Note that Revelation 11:18 says "thy wrath is come," which is in the aorist tense, not the past tense, for I believe it means that after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15) will be the time when the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) is come.

Could the events of the 6th seal be the "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5)?

Click to expand...

I don't know what the aortists tense is.  Why does the NASB translate it as came?  And has come does not imply that this is the beginning of God's wrath.  Angels have just poored out some major judgments on the earth including locusts that home in on those who don't have the seal of God.  Clearly God's judgment has already begun. 

As for Luke 21:11, I'd say no.  That's Luke 21:25-28 (sun moon and stars followed by the coming of the son of man etc.)

This is just far too obvious.  I don't see any reason not to accept it.  Do you know something that I don't?

Maybe there's some way to put the trumpets and bowls so that they occur amongst the 7 seals (though I don't think so), however, the 7th seal is the day of God's wrath.  I don't think anyone will ever convince me otherwise.  The weight of scripture is on it.  The sign in the sun moon and stars is just unmistakable.  It's too specific.

9th February 2003 at 07:05 AM Rize said this in Post #42
...Angels have just poored out some major judgments on the earth including locusts that home in on those who don't have the seal of God...

Click to expand...

Note that just as Jesus' "opening" of the seals (Revelation 6:1) doesn't require that they be God's wrath, so the angels "sounding" of the trumpets (Revelation 8:7) doesn't require that they be God's wrath.

I believe it's possible that those of us Christians who are not one of the 144,000 could suffer under the locusts (just as we will suffer in many other ways during the tribulation, none of which ways will be the wrath of God) as I believe only the 144,000 will receive the particular seal referred to in Revelation 7:4. I believe there will be more than 144,000 of us Christians on the earth at that time.

Come on.  Supernatural locusts instructed not to harm those with the seal of God aren't the wrath of God.  You're stretching things here posttrib.  The weaknesses of the posttrib position is what has allowed pre-tribulationism to flourish.  Pre-wrath is where the scripture's at!

The tribulation is the second 3 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel (7 years).  The only thing that Christians will suffer in the tribulation is persecution at the hands of the anti-christ.

Read The Sign!

Yesterday at 10:18 AM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #43

postrib,
You're always trying to change the subject.  This is new evidence I have presented here.  Let's try to stick to it.  I don't have anything from Revelation in this thread.  I know you believe in a post-trib rapture, but the evidence presented here stands on it's own.  It looks like proof to me, whether you believe or not. 

Click to expand...

In my estimation, the pre-trib position is extremely weak. I think I tried to address your points somewhere up there, but you never responded to them.

12th February 2003 at 06:22 AM Rize said this in Post #45
...Come on.  Supernatural locusts instructed not to harm those with the seal of God aren't the wrath of God.  You're stretching things here...

Click to expand...

Note that it doesn't say the locusts are the wrath of God.

God has allowed faithful Christians to be tortured by men, and to be tormented by scorpion stings, and to suffer from excruciatingly painful diseases such as cancer, throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day, and not because he was bringing his wrath against them.

I believe it's possible that "it was commanded" the locusts by God to torment "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Revelation 9:4) in the same way that God controlled exactly what Satan could do during his tormenting of Job: "The LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6); God could be saying "Behold, all men can be tormented; but the sealed men." Note that none of the suffering that God allowed Satan to bring upon Job was God's wrath against Job.

I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation, whether during the torment from the locusts, or during the persecution from the Antichrist: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10); "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

12th February 2003 at 06:22 AM Rize said this in Post #45
...The only thing that Christians will suffer in the tribulation is persecution at the hands of the anti-christ...

Click to expand...

I believe that we Christians will suffer and die throughout the wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, martyrdoms, and natural disasters of the seals and trumpets, just as we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing his wrath against us.

This is just way too much of a stretch for me.  I like my scriptures nice and obvious unless there is a reason which calls for another understanding (like poor translations from the Greek).

Supernatural locusts (their description is completely different from any natural creature) that avoid those with the seal of God are definitely God's wrath.  Does that make this the day of the Lord?  No, but the sign in Revelation 6 does.

Again, let's move this to another thread.

15th February 2003 at 09:43 AM Rize said this in Post #48
...Supernatural locusts (their description is completely different from any natural creature) that avoid those with the seal of God are definitely God's wrath...

Click to expand...

Why? Was Satan's torment of Job God's wrath?

15th February 2003 at 09:43 AM Rize said this in Post #48
...Does that make this the day of the Lord?  No, but the sign in Revelation 6 does...

Click to expand...

Note that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't mention the earthquake of the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12); it only refers to the powers of "the heavens" being shaken. Could the earthquake of the 6th seal be included in the earthquakes of Matthew 24:7, and the war and famine of the 2nd and 3rd seals (Revelation 6:3-6) be included in the wars and famines of Matthew 24:6-7, all of which occur prior to the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, just as all of the seals of Revelation 6 occur prior to the rule of the Antichrist of Revelation 13?

Could the fearful signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) be the "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5)?

The only thing that Christians will suffer in the tribulation is persecution at the hands of the anti-christ.

Click to expand...

Rize are thinking straight here or getting caught up in your moment?  Jesus told us it will a time of tribulation like none before or ever. Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes.  Please do NOT tell me, that there were NO Christians that died in 911, or WW2 or Hurrican Frederick, or Mount St. Helen, or that get aids or die of lime disease or bee stings for that matter. 

  

Supernatural locusts instructed not to harm those with the seal of God aren't the wrath of God.

Click to expand...

Is God telling animals what they can and cant do that odd?  Daniel was sure glad of it. Isnt there somewhere that a donkey speaks cuz the prophet wouldnt listen?  Imagine that, Animals that OBEY God.

Rize if you are saying the trumpets are the wrath of God, then you HAVE to include ALL of them. Including the 7th, which is the alarm clock for the dead to rise, and Christ to return.  The trumpets are calls, shouts, echos, reverberation(in the greek).  Calls for what? Shouts for whom? Echos from where? Calls for repentance, of which the ungodly refuse. Shouts of warning, WAKE UP! Echos from heaven that shake them to the point of stars falling.  They are there for warnings of the WRATH to come and calls to attention.  I am sure some people in the armed forces can relate to that after hearing revelie at 5am.  

 

Yesterday at 10:16 PM postrib said this in Post #49

Why? Was Satan's torment of Job God's wrath?

Note that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't mention the earthquake of the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12); it only refers to the powers of "the heavens" being shaken. Could the earthquake of the 6th seal be included in the earthquakes of Matthew 24:7, and the war and famine of the 2nd and 3rd seals (Revelation 6:3-6) be included in the wars and famines of Matthew 24:6-7, all of which occur prior to the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, just as all of the seals of Revelation 6 occur prior to the rule of the Antichrist of Revelation 13?

Could the fearful signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) be the "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5)?

Click to expand...

Those locusts had no other purpose though.  Satan is a being.  The locusts are just an instrument of wrath.

I'm not answering any more pre-wrath questions here.  Take it to the pre-wrath thread.  We're incessantly repeating things and it's tiring.

Today at 12:21 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #50

Rize are thinking straight here or getting caught up in your moment?  Jesus told us it will a time of tribulation like none before or ever. Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes.  Please do NOT tell me, that there were NO Christians that died in 911, or WW2 or Hurrican Frederick, or Mount St. Helen, or that get aids or die of lime disease or bee stings for that matter. 

   Is God telling animals what they can and cant do that odd?  Daniel was sure glad of it. Isnt there somewhere that a donkey speaks cuz the prophet wouldnt listen?  Imagine that, Animals that OBEY God.

Rize if you are saying the trumpets are the wrath of God, then you HAVE to include ALL of them. Including the 7th, which is the alarm clock for the dead to rise, and Christ to return.  The trumpets are calls, shouts, echos, reverberation(in the greek).  Calls for what? Shouts for whom? Echos from where? Calls for repentance, of which the ungodly refuse. Shouts of warning, WAKE UP! Echos from heaven that shake them to the point of stars falling.  They are there for warnings of the WRATH to come and calls to attention.  I am sure some people in the armed forces can relate to that after hearing revelie at 5am.  

 

Click to expand...

Natural forces don't persecute people.  The great tribulation does not begin until the mid point of the 70th week.  Certainly Christians will be affected by all the troubles of that time, but they will avoid the wrath of God.  That is the point I'm trying to make.

They will avoid the wrath of God via the rapture.

Today at 12:21 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #50

Rize are thinking straight here or getting caught up in your moment?  Jesus told us it will a time of tribulation like none before or ever. Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes.  Please do NOT tell me, that there were NO Christians that died in 911, or WW2 or Hurrican Frederick, or Mount St. Helen, or that get aids or die of lime disease or bee stings for that matter. 

   Is God telling animals what they can and cant do that odd?  Daniel was sure glad of it. Isnt there somewhere that a donkey speaks cuz the prophet wouldnt listen?  Imagine that, Animals that OBEY God.

Rize if you are saying the trumpets are the wrath of God, then you HAVE to include ALL of them. Including the 7th, which is the alarm clock for the dead to rise, and Christ to return.  The trumpets are calls, shouts, echos, reverberation(in the greek).  Calls for what? Shouts for whom? Echos from where? Calls for repentance, of which the ungodly refuse. Shouts of warning, WAKE UP! Echos from heaven that shake them to the point of stars falling.  They are there for warnings of the WRATH to come and calls to attention.  I am sure some people in the armed forces can relate to that after hearing revelie at 5am.  

 

Click to expand...

The 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet of God.  The trumpet of God is different than the judgment trumpets of Revelation.

Today at 06:31 AM Rize said this in Post #51
...The locusts are just an instrument of wrath...  

Click to expand...

Note again that it doesn't say the locusts are the wrath of God. I believe it's possible that "it was commanded" the locusts by God to torment "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Revelation 9:4) in the same way that God controlled exactly what Satan could do during his tormenting of Job: "The LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6); God could be saying "Behold, all men can be tormented; but the sealed men." Note that none of the suffering that God allowed Satan to bring upon Job was God's wrath against Job.

Today at 06:33 AM Rize said this in Post #52
...They will avoid the wrath of God via the rapture....

Click to expand...

Note that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah or Lot into heaven to keep them from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

Noah was commanded to make extensive preparations on the earth in order to avoid God's wrath; he had to build a gigantic ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 4 1/2 stories high (Genesis 6:15), and he had to store up enough food to keep himself, 7 others in his family (Genesis 7:7), and every kind of animal alive in the ark (Genesis 6:19) for the 12 months and 10 days they would all remain in the ark (Genesis 7:11, 8:13-17) and until they could grow more food on the destroyed earth after the flood.

And Lot was greatly affected by the judgment on Sodom: he had to flee immediately and leave behind everything he owned; he even lost his wife; and he went to go live in a cave (Genesis 19:30).

I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 could be a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The 7 vials aren't directed at us Christians, so that our and our families' entering our "chambers" before the 7 vials and "shutting the doors" about us (Isaiah 26:20-21) could protect us in a way like Noah and his family's entering the ark before the flood and the "shutting" of "the door of the ark" protected them (Genesis 6:16, 7:16).

Today at 06:34 AM Rize said this in Post #53
...the judgment trumpets of Revelation...

Click to expand...

Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? Isn't it possible that God's judgment may not begin until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and that none of them will be directed at us Christians?

The 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet of God. The trumpet of God is different than the judgment trumpets of Revelation.

Click to expand...

Ok let me see here. Paul tells Christians of his day about Jesus returning at the last trump. John gets a revelation from Jesus Himself as to the events surrounding His return. Lo and behold, there are trumpets there! And given to angels to sound by God even.

Rev.8:2 trumpets: strongs4536 salpigx: through the idea of quavering(trembling?) or reverberation; a trumpet-trump

Wow, and not only that, at the LAST one in the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John, the earths harvest takes place by none other than the Son of Man on a cloud!

Yeah i see what you mean Rize, no similarity whatsoever.       

Today at 07:57 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #57
...Jesus returning at the last trump... 

Click to expand...

I personally don't believe that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) is the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), but that the rapture trumpet will sound "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 vials are finished. I don't believe that Revelation shows Jesus coming or the Antichrist being destroyed at the 7th trumpet, for the Antichrist is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), after the vials (Revelation 16). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.

Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, so that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

Today at 07:57 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #57
...the earths harvest takes place by none other than the Son of Man on a cloud... 

Click to expand...

I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be a symbolic picture of Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark:

"They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:11-16).

I personally don't believe that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) is the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), but that the rapture trumpet will sound "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 vials are finished.

Click to expand...

The 7th trumpet DOES sound after the tribulation. The vials of wrath are poured out while Chirst IS present! The wrath is AFTER the tribulation, not during it. Is there an 8th trumpet mentioned somewhere or any other after the 7th?

but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be FINISHED, as He declared to His servants the prophets.Rev. 10:7

Christ comes, and gathers. The wicked (tares) are gathered FIRST. The righteous(wheat) are then gathered next. Matt.13:30

Then the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matt.25:31-32

 

I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.

Click to expand...

Nor do i. Thats exactly what i just said.

 

Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, so that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

Click to expand...

I agree. Jesus does exhort us to hold on. He sais there:Behold I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and KEEPS HIS GARMENTS, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. Those that watch and keep themselves pure, will NOT be taken by the thief. Those are the tares mentioned above. Those who have the garments kept, are the wheat. Notice also in Daniel there are 1290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away. What are these extra 45 days? The gathering, and the wrath, for which Jesus IS PRESENT. THat is why he sais, hold on!

EveOfGrace