What about Platonic conceptions?
Do you believe mathematical objects "exist"?
Does a concept have any objective reality, or does it purely depend on the consciousness of the thinker?
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What is God?
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What about Platonic conceptions?
Do you believe mathematical objects "exist"?
Does a concept have any objective reality, or does it purely depend on the consciousness of the thinker?
Personally, I´d say that the existence of something that doesn´t have any impact whatsoever is irrelevant.
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Somewhat, though I will note that the distinction between "God" and "god" is important. The definition refers to a god, and in that sense it could be synonomous with some of the things you've mentioned. If someone makes money the purpose of their life, and thinks money will fulfill them, then money is their god (Matt 6:24).
I am trying to separate this idea of defining God (which is too frequent in this forum) from defining a god. The reason for using God to refer to the god of the Bible is a traditional combination of Christians asserting that God is the only god and the Jewish reluctance to speak the name of Yahweh (which was God's answer to the question of his name in Exodus 3).
Think of it this way:
god = office
God = a person
So, as an analogy:
President = office
Barack Obama = person
And yet, Obama is the President.
It's easy to answer: What is a president?
It's hard to answer: Who is Barack Obama?
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P
prov1810
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It's a moral statement. God established a particular nation in a covenant with himself. Breaking the covenant brings about a loss of these blessings.
There is nothing wrong with God making his rational creations morally accountable. It's morally appropriate for him to do this. Why should love be morally indifferent?
There is something inherently destructive in a morally evil act. It damages ourselves and our relationships with God and other people.
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That´s just a matter of semantics. If you include concepts into your definition of "existing" then we would have to say that countless Gods exist.
(Which would be a problem for monotheists.
)
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Eight Foot Manchild
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I don't believe in them.
Not outside of imagination.
Mathematical and logical axioms are human inventions used to describe the behavior of reality. They are not things unto themselves in the same way a tree or a rocking chair or a force, such as motion, are.
See above. I draw a distinction between concepts and the objects and behaviors they are meant to describe.
To illustrate, if all human consciousness were eradicated tomorrow, there would be no logical equation 'A=A', but the behaviour of reality that the axiom describes would still hold. Things would still be themselves.
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The difference between asking what someone is and asking who someone is can be very subtle.
I did not ask "Who is a god?", I asked, "What is God?"
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OK. But I'm not sure what you're after. It's a very broad question. Is there something about God you want to know? As the question stands, my answers will probably sound flippant. I would reply with things like:
God is a being.
or
Read the Bible.
If someone asked you, "What is Barack Obama?" how would you reply? Does that analogy help you see my dilemma?
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Davian
fallible
From what I gather, it is character in a book.
I think the term I lean towards at this point is ignosticism. I do not make any assumptions about what your concept of a god might include, and leave it to you to define in some coherent manner.
I have met many that claim that God is more than a character in a book, but substantiation of those claims so far have fallen into the untestable, unevidenced, or unfalsifiable.
For any thing or concept to be considered of significance, should it not have some measurable effect on the universe? Some explanatory power, at least?
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As I said, the difference between "who" and "what" is fairly subtle. If you asked me what Barack Obama is, I could probably give the following replies:
He is a man. He is a human. He is a president. He is a father. Etc.
All those answers could also answer part of the question of who Obama is. Roles/traits help define a person and make them unique from another.
Is there a similar list of roles/traits that God has that describes what he is?
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Obama is all of those, and yet none of them are really unique are they? There are many who are human, many who are men, many fathers, even many presidents.
In a recent discussion it was said that one theory of language is not that we learn how to define words, but that we learn how to use them. I think the same applies here. It is not that we learn how to define persons, but that we learn to recognize them.
Exodus 3:14 - And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."
Deuteronomy 4:31 - For the LORD your God is a merciful God.
Nehemiah 9:33 - Yet you have been righteous in all that has come upon us, for you have dealt faithfully and we have acted wickedly.
Psalm 25:8 - Good and upright is the Lord.
Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.
Isaiah 6:3 - Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts.
Jeremiah 23:23 - Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away?
Malachi 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I do not change.
Matthew 19:26 - With God all things are possible.
1 John 4:8 - God is love.
How's that for a start?
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DogmaHunter
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Good question. I don't know. I still don't know. I've been talking to theists for a decade. Plenty of them have tried to define their god to me.
Most of the time, these definitions are not at all consistent. It sometimes seems as if there are just as many god-concepts out there as there are theists. If theists themselves don't seem to be able to agree on a proper definition, how could we expect atheists to have such definition?
I don't know. And that is exactly the problem. How can I believe that which isn't properly defined?
I don't believe in "akkubolidabeda" either. Do you?
Yes. Perhaps "measurable impact" is the wrong way to phrase it.
Let's call it "some kind of manifestation" instead. That which doesn't manifest, can't be shown to exist. That which can't be shown to exist, can't rationally be accepted to exist.
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DogmaHunter
Code Monkey
As a concept, the god of the bible indeed exists. So does spiderman, wolverine and predator.
Mathematical objects are abstract things. They don't do anything and they certainly don't care about what we do while naked.
And yes, concepts have no objective reality and only exist in the minds of people who use those concepts to accomplish whatever they try to accomplish.
So, gods exist as concepts, but they don't seem to exist as actual manifesting entities in reality. It's all between a person's ears.
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DogmaHunter
Code Monkey
Barack Obama is a black Homo Sapiens. He currently resides in the white house where has taken up the role of leading a country named The United States of America. A role that American citizens call "president".
And he looks like this: http://www.barackobama.net/pictures/barack-obama-2.jpg
I could go on to describe his height, weight, etc.
In short: I can very accurately describe and define what Barack Obama is, what his role/manifestation in the universe is, where you need to go to meet him, etc.
And you would have a very clear idea of what Barack Obama is AND the means the verify everything I stated.
Can you give an equally accurate definition that is equally verifiable about god?
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durangodawood
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How can you be a Christian and say that?
Isnt an actual God/being/person at the center of the faith... rather than a symbol?
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