Proving immortal Soul doctrine Sola Scriptura

BobRyan · Apr 9, 2014

Ok so I wanted to prove whatever form of the "immortal soul doctrine" that could be proven - from the actual Bible (sola scriptura) - without resorting to any of the following.

1. The doctrine of witches. (so then no servants of satan claiming to "conjuring up" whomever they wish - such that we would have to rely on their oh-so-fallible ideas.)
2. Parable symbols where the dead pray to the dead and Abraham is soveriegn over all the dead saints. (so then no Abraham sovereign of all of heaven)
3. symbols about Abel's "blood speaking" or his blood "crying out from the ground" (so then - no immortal blood)
4. Apocalyptic symbols with souls under the altar acting in the same fashion as Abel's blood crying out from the ground.

All I need is a doctrinal statement from scripture saying we have an "immortal soul" in true Romans 1 "the just shall live by faith" -- doctrinal fashion.

As we all know there is no such text for "immortal soul" - but that did not stop me because I did find a text where it can be shown from a doctrinal teaching in the NT that the soul survives death in at least some fashion.

Do you know what text that is?

in Christ,

Bob

All Souls · Apr 9, 2014

Immortality of the soul comes from Plato

dayhiker · Apr 9, 2014

Seems to me that Jesus giving us eternal life says both my soul and spirit are immortal.

yogosans14 · Apr 9, 2014

You follow the interperations of Ellen g white.

I can't take you serious.

PhillipLaSpino · Apr 9, 2014

Man is made of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. Scriptures tell us after the physical body dies, the soul and spirit go into a place called paradise. This place is for both the just and the unjust. We are told about it in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and the thief on the cross was told by Christ, This day thou shall be with me in paradise.

Jesus and Stephen said unto the Father moments before they died, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit." 1 Cor.15:53-54 read, "This mortal must put on immortality. ---- And this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death (physical death) is swallowed up in victory; and in ver.55, "O grave, (hades) where is thy victory?"

Samual was brought up from the grace, Moses and Elisha were seen by the three apostles. John sees the souls of men in heaven.

Both death and the grave will have lost it's power, and immortality will rule. Immortality meaning to be exempt from death, and having a being or life that will never end be it in heaven with the Lord, or in hell with the devil!

Phil LaSpino

Gnarwhal · Apr 9, 2014

All Souls said:
Immortality of the soul comes from Plato

Bingo.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2014

Malicious demons!

He who questions eternal torture must face eternal torture.

He-Man I Have The Power - YouTube

BobRyan · Apr 9, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
Man is made of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. Scriptures tell us after the physical body dies, the soul and spirit go into a place called paradise. This place is for both the just and the unjust.

In the OP I state specifically that the goal is to find an actual Bible text that points to at least something that pertains to the soul surviving death.

PhillipLaSpino said:
We are told about it in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus,

Which is a fine parable loaded with symbolism having Abraham as the sovereign of heaven in charge of all dead saints.

I mention this in the OP

BobRyan said:
Ok so I wanted to prove whatever form of the "immortal soul doctrine" that could be proven - from the actual Bible (sola scriptura) - without resorting to any of the following.

1. The doctrine of witches. (so then no servants of satan claiming to "conjuring up" whomever they wish - such that we would have to rely on their oh-so-fallible ideas.)
2. Parable symbols where the dead pray to the dead and Abraham is soveriegn over all the dead saints. (so then no Abraham sovereign of all of heaven)
3. symbols about Abel's "blood speaking" or his blood "crying out from the ground" (so then - no immortal blood)
4. Apocalyptic symbols with souls under the altar acting in the same fashion as Abel's blood crying out from the ground.

All I need is a doctrinal statement from scripture saying we have an "immortal soul" in true Romans 1 "the just shall live by faith" -- doctrinal fashion.

As we all know there is no such text for "immortal soul" - but that did not stop me because I did find a text where it can be shown from a doctrinal teaching in the NT that the soul survives death in at least some fashion.

But for this thread the goal is to go beyond creative writing, preference, parables, symbols and get to a rock solid Bible text as Romans 1 is for "The just shall live by faith".

I think there is at least one text that qualified in this "sola scriptura" doctrinal fashion. And I will state it later if no one else does - but i wanted people to provide the texts that they see as being in true Romans 1- doctrinal fashion speaking to the subject.

PhillipLaSpino said:
and the thief on the cross was told by Christ, “This day thou shall be with me in paradise.

In John 20 Jesus said he hand not yet been to heaven or any such place like it. The theif specifically says "remember me when you come into your kingdom" Jesus responds "Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in Paradise".

It is unclear that Jesus went to paradise that day since in John 20, after the resurrection he says he did not.

We can't rely on extreme inference as our strongest case.

"

PhillipLaSpino said:
Samual was brought up from the grace,
Phil LaSpino

That is 1Sam 28 where the witch is asked by Saul to "conjure up for me whomever I shall name" -- the witch alone claims to see Samuel. I mention this in the OP as an example of not wanting to resort to the word of a witch to establish doctrine one way or the other.

PhillipLaSpino said:
Moses and Elisha were seen by the three apostles. John sees the souls of men in heaven.

Elijah is translated to heaven without dying in 2Kings 2 and Moses is mentioned by Jude quoting from the book "the Assumption of Moses" in Jude 7 so we can't rely on extreme inference to establish doctrine in those two case. We need the direct and unmistakable Romans 1 style doctrinal statement.

And I think we have at least one maybe more.

[COLOR=black said:
Phil LaSpino[/COLOR]]
Jesus and Stephen said unto the Father moments before they died, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit."

Yes that is a good reference. i like those two examples.

There is at least one more.

PhillipLaSpino said:
1 Cor.15:53-54 read, "This mortal must put on immortality. ---- And this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death (physical death) is swallowed up in victory; and in ver.55, "O grave, (hades) where is thy victory?"

1Cor 15 states that we are mortal and is a great chapter describing the doctrine of the resurrection. Hard to get "immortal soul" out of "we are mortal".

in Christ,

Bob

Setyoufree · Apr 9, 2014

dayhiker said:
Seems to me that Jesus giving us eternal life says both my soul and spirit are immortal.

Here we go again....Context, context, context!!! :doh:

1 John 5:11 "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life....."

If I stopped here your argument might somewhat plausible, but let's read the rest of John's quote:

"God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Where is this life? Not in you, but rather "in Christ"!!!

You have immortality by a promise, not in reality. Your job is faith from first to last. If you keep your faith in Christ you shall be changed. Let's read this:

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die the 1st death), but we shall all be changed (i.e., some will be living when Christ returns)-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (the 2nd coming). For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible (i.e., sinful) must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Clearly immortality is given at the 2nd coming. If you are dead you will be raised to immortality. IF you are living you will be changed also, to immorality.

You are not immortal now for you are corruptible. This simply means you are indwelt by sin and unfit for heaven. You must be made sinless and then immorality is given to you.

Setyoufree · Apr 9, 2014

yogosans14 said:
You follow the interperations of Ellen g white.

I can't take you serious.

Well, I don't know if that is true of Bob, but using the Bible is not following EGW. Why don't you try using your Bible instead of going after Bob's religion. He is using the Bible....I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but he is not using EGW. Chill....

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2014

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the soul/spirit distinction from Platonic thought as well?

I ask because I can only understand things through the lens of mind, heart and body, and others haven't been able to explain the soul/spirit distinction to me in those terms.

Setyoufree · Apr 9, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
Man is made of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. Scriptures tell us after the physical body dies, the soul and spirit go into a place called paradise. This place is for both the just and the unjust. We are told about it in the parable of

So both sinners and saints go to paradise? Please!!

Why not use the clear verses instead of using parables or out of context verses?

The Bible teaches that "the soul that sins it will die". You look that up. Since all have sinned then the soul dies. The spirit is the inner mind (something that does not occupy time & space). Since the body is dead the spirit becomes useless. It is not some apparition. That's Hollywood's version.

All 3 component cease to exist at death. Our only hope is the resurrection.

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
Man is made of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. Scriptures tell us after the physical body dies, the soul and spirit go into a place called paradise. This place is for both the just and the unjust. We are told about it in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and the thief on the cross was told by Christ, “This day thou shall be with me in paradise.

Bear in mind that Paradise is apparently the destination of "he who overcomes" as mentioned several times in Revelation. Now if every mention of reward received by "he who overcomes" is referring to the same reward, then Paradise is where the tree of life is, it's where Christ's throne is, that being the same as the Father's, and it is closely associated with a temple.

Does that sound like something no more important than a temporary holding tank for dead people? Further, does that sound like a place where the unjust go? Personally I'm inclined to believe that nothing which offends is allowed in.

yogosans14 · Apr 9, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
Man is made of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. Scriptures tell us after the physical body dies, the soul and spirit go into a place called paradise. This place is for both the just and the unjust. We are told about it in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and the thief on the cross was told by Christ, This day thou shall be with me in paradise.

Jesus and Stephen said unto the Father moments before they died, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit." 1 Cor.15:53-54 read, "This mortal must put on immortality. ---- And this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death (physical death) is swallowed up in victory; and in ver.55, "O grave, (hades) where is thy victory?"

Samual was brought up from the grace, Moses and Elisha were seen by the three apostles. John sees the souls of men in heaven.

Both death and the grave will have lost it's power, and immortality will rule. Immortality meaning to be exempt from death, and having a being or life that will never end be it in heaven with the Lord, or in hell with the devil!

Phil LaSpino

Amen!Funny how everyone was wrong until the 1800s when the SDAs come on the scene LOL.

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both punishment and life, it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether they are saved or lost, will exist eternally, in either heaven or hell. True life or spiritual life does not cease when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven if we are saved, or in punishment in hell if we reject Gods gift of salvation. In fact, the promise of the Bible is that not only will our souls live forever, but also that our bodies will be resurrected. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12-19).

While all souls are immortal, it is important to remember that we are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only truly eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other sentient creatures, whether they are human or angelic, are finite in that they had a beginning. While our souls will live forever once we come into being, the Bible does not support the concept that our souls have always existed. Our souls are immortal, as that is how God created them, but they did have a beginning; there was a time they did not exist.

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2014

yogosans14 said:
Amen!Funny how everyone was wrong until the 1800s when the SDAs come on the scene LOL.

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether they are saved or lost, will exist eternally, in either heaven or hell.

You can claim it until you're blue in the face, and it won't change the fact that nobody was able to provide sufficient biblical support for the claim in the thread I posted not too long ago on this very subject.

Most of us know the Bible inside and out, and not all of us are arriving at this supposed certainty of yours.

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2014

... until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality... -1 Tim 6:14-16

So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Cor 15:54

Being ignorant, I certainly wish someone could explain to me how Paul was mistaken, or how I am mistaken in reading what I just read, or why it is we should move Paul's doctrine out of the way to accept the doctrine of the immortality of all souls.

MoreCoffee · Apr 9, 2014

BobRyan said:
Ok so I wanted to prove whatever form of the "immortal soul doctrine" that could be proven - from the actual Bible (sola scriptura) ...

The scriptures teach that man was created for immortality and that the souls of the just are in God's hands.

Wisdom 2:23-3:9 KJV

(23) For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.
(24) Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.
(1) But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them.
(2) In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery,
(3) And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace.
(4) For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality.
(5) And having been a little chastised, they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself.
(6) As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering.
(7) And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble.
(8) They shall judge the nations, and have dominion over the people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
(9) They that put their trust in him shall understand the truth: and such as be faithful in love shall abide with him: for grace and mercy is to his saints, and he hath care for his elect.

But when one turns to the traditions of men to exclude inspired scripture from one's definition of "sola scriptura" then one will fall into error, as did Ellen White.

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2014

Nanopants said:
Bear in mind that Paradise is apparently the destination of "he who overcomes" as mentioned several times in Revelation. .

Paradise is only mentioned 3 times in all of scripture. One is in Luke 23, one in 2Cor 12 and one in Rev 2. In Rev 2 and 2Cor 12 it is most certainly heaven - where the Throne of God and Tree of life are.

In Luke 23 It appears to be a reference "when Christ comes in His Kingdom".

42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

In any case - I am looking for doctrinal statements that do not rely on risky - extreme inference, guided by preference or bias.

Something that can be used to objectively make the case.

As already stated - statements by Christ and by Stephen - as someone has already quoted here - are good examples of clear statements about the spirit going to God at death. "Into Thy hands I commit my spirit".

There is a doctrinal statement in OT along those lines as well "and the spirit returns to God who gave it".

Eccl 12:7
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

But there is a NT statement still yet to be mentioned that makes the case explicitly - doctrinally, no inference, no parables, no apocalyptic symbol, no relying on the word of a witch -- for the soul of all mankind survive the first death.

Nanopants said:
... until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality... -1 Tim 6:14-16

So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Cor 15:54

Being ignorant, I certainly wish someone could explain to me how Paul was mistaken, or how I am mistaken in reading what I just read, or why it is we should move Paul's doctrine out of the way to accept the doctrine of the immortality of all souls.

You are right to point out that the Bible is clear in stating that "God alone has immortality" - and in 1Cor 15 "This mortal must put on immortality" at the resurrection of the saints.

If I have made a mistake on this thread it is in the title - since I have no text saying "immortal soul" or "man has immortal soul" -- but we do have a few texts that show that the soul survives the first death -- though we are called "mortal" because the death state where body and soul are separated and the soul goes dormant - does exist.

So then in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ" are those who have "fallen asleep" as Paul says in 1Thess 4 - which surely points to "this mortal" to our being "mortal".

And I have admitted this in the OP by stating that there is NO bible text saying that man has an "immortal soul" -- it can only be found in man-made-tradition.

But at the same time the Bible does stated that the soul survives the first death. So then "mortal" in the bible context of "mortal man" includes the notion that the soul survives the first death - when we become the "DEAD in Christ" 1Thess 4.

I am thinking of Matt 10:28 "28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. "

This is said in a clear form of doctrinal teaching, no witches, no apocalyptic symbols, no parable, no blood crying out from the ground etc.

So when Christ said "Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake him" John 11 - Jesus is talking about the fact that Lazarus still exists - he has survived death albeit in a sleep/dormant mode.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2014

yogosans14 said:
Jesus Himself said that the wicked will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both punishment and life, it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

.

In Jude 7 the same word for "eternal" is used to point out that Sodom and Gomorrah are exhibited as "examples in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" -- seen pictures of the middle-east lately? google earth?

Doctrine cannot be established on inference alone.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 11, 2014

yogosans14 said:
While all souls are immortal, it is important to remember that we are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only truly eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. .

And no text says "all souls are immortal" so you quote "you" for that one.

the point is that in the mortal state - God says that the soul of all mankind survives the first death - but in a dormant fashion where "the DEAD in Christ" are those who have "fallen asleep" according to Paul in 1Thess 4.

1Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

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