Questions for Pro-Rabbinic MJ's

Steve Petersen · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
I spoke of a crooked and perverse generation, which were the rulers. Why generalize my post?
If Jew's were subject to listen to the seat of Moses and to do as they say. The rulers, including the high priest (Sadducees) gave their ruling on Jesus. But, the law disqualifies corrupt judges, which bribe, seek false witnesses etc. We have a record of all this in the Gospels. therefore do you allow that the gospels are a testimony which disqualifies the judgment by recording bribery, false witnesses, etc from these corrupt judges? If not, then wouldn't you be compelled to accept the judgment issued by the seat of Moses?

Matthew 23 says nothing about the Sadducees at all. It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus did not recognize their authority. They did NOT sit in Moses' seat.

annier · Apr 6, 2014

Steve Petersen said:
Matthew 23 says nothing about the Sadducees at all. It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus did not recognize their authority. They did NOT sit in Moses' seat.

Why not address my questions? As for the Sadducees, the high priest was a Sadducee. The high priest is still a ruler in the Sanhedrin. We can see this with Paul having letters to persecute the believers has authority by this letter from the high priest. As well as Paul's other trials, the council was made up of both Sects. However, I would like an answer to my question please.
if the seat of Moses ruled Jesus to be a false Messiah, worthy of death, how then does one not obey their ruling? Therefore wouldn't the Gospel testimonies of bribery, false testimonies etc be a witness to disqualify them as judges?

mercy1061 · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
Why not address my questions? As for the Sadducees, the high priest was a Sadducee. The high priest is still a ruler in the Sanhedrin. We can see this with Paul having letters to persecute the believers has authority by this letter from the high priest. As well as Paul's other trials, the council was made up of both Sects. However, I would like an answer to my question please.
if the seat of Moses ruled Jesus to be a false Messiah, worthy of death, how then does one not obey their ruling? Therefore wouldn't the Gospel testimonies of bribery, false testimonies etc be a witness to disqualify them as judges?

If we disqualify them as judges, do we then become enemies of the cross?

Phil 3:18-19

Messianic Jewboy · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
Why not address my questions? As for the Sadducees, the high priest was a Sadducee. The high priest is still a ruler in the Sanhedrin. We can see this with Paul having letters to persecute the believers has authority by this letter from the high priest. As well as Paul's other trials, the council was made up of both Sects. However, I would like an answer to my question please.
if the seat of Moses ruled Jesus to be a false Messiah, worthy of death, how then does one not obey their ruling? Therefore wouldn't the Gospel testimonies of bribery, false testimonies etc be a witness to disqualify them as judges?

Jesus criticized the Pharisee's not the Sadducees.

annier · Apr 6, 2014

mercy1061 said:
If we disqualify them as judges, do we then become enemies of the cross?

Did those which condemned Christ, through bribery and false witnesses disqualify themselves as judges? Did they judge justly?

mercy1061 · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
Did those which condemned Christ, through bribery and false witnesses disqualify themselves as judges? Did they judge justly?

Did John call him the lamb of G-d who came to take away the sin of the world? The seat of Moses is not located in Israel, as Moses did not set foot on the promise land but only saw it from a distance.

annier · Apr 6, 2014

Messianic Jewboy said:
Jesus criticized the Pharisee's not the Sadducees.

He seems to have lumped them together here.....
Mt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

mercy1061 · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
Did those which condemned Christ, through bribery and false witnesses disqualify themselves as judges? Did they judge justly?

Did any man disqualify the seat of Moses? Did the seat of Moses judge all matters?

Messianic Jewboy · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
He seems to have lumped them together here.....
Mt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

What is the leaven?

annier · Apr 6, 2014

Messianic Jewboy said:
What is the leaven?

I think it was their malice towards one another. They were dividing the kingdom.

mercy1061 · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
I think it was their malice towards one another. They were dividing the kingdom.

What is the purpose of leaven? Leavened bread can not be eaten during passover.

visionary · Apr 6, 2014

mercy1061 said:
What is the purpose of leaven? Leavened bread can not be eaten during passover.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if all malice was set aside for just one week out of the year, then maybe we would all see how wonderful it would be. Then maybe would try to live it the rest of the year. :clap:

mercy1061 · Apr 6, 2014

visionary said:
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all malice was set aside for just one week out of the year, then maybe we would all see how wonderful it would be. Then maybe would try to live it the rest of the year.

Shall we eat tasteless bread forever? Why did ancient Israel make unleavened bread?

Hoshiyya · Apr 12, 2014

pat34lee said:
For the first, it just means that even if there is nothing wrong with how the talmud teaches to do 'whatever', any command, it doesn't mean that the talmud tells the only correct way to do that command.

There were two problems Yeshua had with Pharisees. Those who were hypocrites, like you said. Also, traditions which went against the scriptures or which were treated as scriptural commands.

One of the problems of adding to scripture, whether filling in details, telling stories or building fences, is that there is no end of it. I don't remember offhand how many books there are of talmud, (24 or more?) but they still don't cover everything. No book or set of books could.

As Annier said, and like I was trying, the apostles were to obey the Pharisees in their official role. I say it was civic, as the priests were to control the religious questions. Either way, the traditions were not part of their office when judging. They could not command that the disciples wash their hands ceremonially, for instance. They complained to Yeshua about that. They had laws and precedents like our judges today.

The Jews draw a strong distinction between TNK and other writings like Talmud, for example one does not apply Gematria or such word-studies or "word-mysticism" to the Talmud. So if any Jew treats Talmud as though it was Torah he is breaking the Torah and dishonoring Judaism and cannot be representative of it; the same with Hypocrite Pharisees: they do not represent Phariseeism.

"One of the problems of adding to scripture, whether filling in details, telling stories or building fences, is that there is no end of it. I don't remember offhand how many books there are of talmud, (24 or more?) but they still don't cover everything. No book or set of books could."

Point being?

"...even if there is nothing wrong with how the talmud teaches to do 'whatever', any command, it doesn't mean that the talmud tells the only correct way to do that command."

You cannot know what Tzitzit is (as an example, or Mezuzah,) from TNK alone, hence you need something outside of scripture in order to fulfill and not break the scripture.

Besides that, why would I listen to Bob P. Gentile's speculation for how to build a Sukkah if I can listen to a learned sage who actually speaks Hebrew and is part of the people which received the commandments and kept the traditions of Elohim ?

pat34lee · Apr 12, 2014

Hoshiyya said:
Besides that, why would I listen to Bob P. Gentile's speculation for how to build a Sukkah if I can listen to a learned sage who actually speaks Hebrew and is part of the people which received the commandments and kept the traditions of Elohim ?

Do you think most black people in the US today understand slavery better than anyone else because some of their great-grandfathers were slaves? If Bob studied history, ancient Israeli culture and the scriptures, he probably knows more about sukkahs than the learned sages. Most of them lived long after being expelled from Israel and had never been there. YHWH didn't give traditions, just commands. Men made the traditions.

Hoshiyya · Apr 12, 2014

pat34lee said:
Do you think most black people in the US today understand slavery better than anyone else because some of their great-grandfathers were slaves? If Bob studied history, ancient Israeli culture and the scriptures, he probably knows more about sukkahs than the learned sages. Most of them lived long after being expelled from Israel and had never been there. YHWH didn't give traditions, just commands. Men made the traditions.

So tell me what a sukkah is, or mezuzah, or tzitzit, from scripture alone, without drawing upon any Rabbi's writings or anyone else's writings (which in turn are either complete speculation or draw upon the Rabbis too.)
Tell me the difference between correct and illegitimate circumcision, or how to perform a marriage, under the same conditions.
Under the same conditions, tell me how you fulfill the commandment not to אכְל֖ any דּוּכִיפַ֖ת.

visionary · Apr 12, 2014

mercy1061 said:
Shall we eat tasteless bread forever? Why did ancient Israel make unleavened bread?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if malice and Pharisee hypocrisy was set aside for one year.

pat34lee · Apr 12, 2014

Hoshiyya said:
So tell me what a sukkah is, or mezuzah, or tzitzit, from scripture alone, without drawing upon any Rabbi's writings or anyone else's writings (which in turn are either complete speculation or draw upon the Rabbis too.)
Tell me the difference between correct and illegitimate circumcision, or how to perform a marriage, under the same conditions.
Under the same conditions, tell me how you fulfill the commandment not to אכְל֖ any דּוּכִיפַ֖ת.

A sukkah is a tent, though they don't use them anymore for the feast.
A mezuzah is a way to keep from actually writing the commands on the gates and doorposts. How are you going to read them on a scroll in a closed box?
A tzitzit is a fringe on the garment with a blue string. Those long stringy things are wrong.
Matthew 23:5

These don't all have a blue string, but that is easy to change.

An incorrect circumcision is one that isn't done, or that is done by someone that has no clue how to do it.
A marriage is done how the bride wishes to do it.

Don't eat it.

annier · Apr 12, 2014

Hoshiyya said:
So tell me what a sukkah is, or mezuzah, or tzitzit, from scripture alone, without drawing upon any Rabbi's writings or anyone else's writings (which in turn are either complete speculation or draw upon the Rabbis too.)
Tell me the difference between correct and illegitimate circumcision, or how to perform a marriage, under the same conditions.
Under the same conditions, tell me how you fulfill the commandment not to אכְל֖ any דּוּכִיפַ֖ת.

I do not know how you would be able to know if some of the rabbinic requirements were not examples of pride, in how they did these things...

Mt 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mt 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Mr 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,

Hoshiyya · Apr 12, 2014

annier said:
I do not know how you would be able to know if some of the rabbinic requirements were not examples of pride, in how they did these things...

Mt 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mt 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Mr 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,

Firstly, See Matt 23:1-3 for a more balanced view. Do you believe in Yeshua's words in that verse?

Secondly, have you ever read any Rabbinic writings or extra-Biblical writings ?

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