Levites and circumcision??

visionary · Apr 5, 2014

No man who had a defect was to act as a priest. Circumcision disfigures and causes a defect in the male. Circumcision causes a portion of the member of a man’s body to be cut off. No male who had a member cut off was to enter the assembly. A priestly leader was not to have a cutting in their flesh. Circumcision is a cutting in the flesh.

Lev 21:18 ‘For any man who has a defect is not to draw near: a man blind or one lame or disfigured or deformed,

Lev 21:21 ‘No man among the offspring of Aharon the priest, who has a defect, is to come near to bring the offerings made by fire to יהוה – he has a defect, he does not come near to bring the bread of his Elohim.

Deut 23:1 “No one wounded, crushed or whose member is cut off does enter the assembly of יהוה.

Lev 21:5 they do not make any bald place on their heads, and they do not shave the corner of their beard, and they do not make a cutting in their flesh

daq · Apr 6, 2014

If this is a question it is a good one Visionary. What happened to all the circumcision experts?
Mind if I add the following since it is the only other place we find this word for "cuttings"?

"And cuttings for the nephesh-soul you shall not put in your flesh", (Leviticus 19:28a).

Hard to believe nephesh should be rendered as "dead" here, (soul for soul, eye for eye, hand for hand, chop! chop!)

Messianic Jewboy · Apr 6, 2014

visionary said:
No man who had a defect was to act as a priest. Circumcision disfigures and causes a defect in the male. Circumcision causes a portion of the member of a mans body to be cut off. No male who had a member cut off was to enter the assembly. A priestly leader was not to have a cutting in their flesh. Circumcision is a cutting in the flesh.

Lev 21:18 For any man who has a defect is not to draw near: a man blind or one lame or disfigured or deformed,

Lev 21:21 No man among the offspring of Aharon the priest, who has a defect, is to come near to bring the offerings made by fire to יהוה he has a defect, he does not come near to bring the bread of his Elohim.

Deut 23:1 No one wounded, crushed or whose member is cut off does enter the assembly of יהוה.

Lev 21:5 they do not make any bald place on their heads, and they do not shave the corner of their beard, and they do not make a cutting in their flesh

Not according to the Abrahamic Covenant.

David Ben Yosef · Apr 6, 2014

Circumcision is not a blemish, or defect, it is a covenant requirement.

daq · Apr 6, 2014

Always the flesh, the flesh, the flesh, and more flesh!

When someone finally has the foreskin of his, (or her) heart circumcised and cut away, (according to the flesh) I certainly hope he, (or she) takes video footage and will kindly post it here on the board so as to prove that he, (or she) loves the Father with all of his, (or her) heart, (of the flesh). And don't forget that all of the "fat" belongs to the Most High, (all of them fatlings of Bashan). ^_^

David Ben Yosef · Apr 6, 2014

daq said:
Always the flesh, the flesh, the flesh, and more flesh! When someone finally has the foreskin of his, (or her) heart circumcised and cut away, (according to the flesh) I certainly hope he, (or she) takes video footage and will kindly post it here on the board so as to prove that he, (or she) loves the Father with all of his, (or her) heart, (of the flesh). And don't forget that all of the "fat" belongs to the Most High, (all of them fatlings of Bashan).

One does not negate the other. Both are required.

visionary · Apr 6, 2014

It is probably back to discerning the weightier matters and in this case circumcision is a requirement for the Passover and not just the covenant requirement. It is interesting, because let's say that someone got nicked there for another reason. Because there is no official reason allowed for this injury, it would be decided that it is a marring, a disfigurement. The poor levite who got injuried in his privates would get his position in the temple taken away because of this ruling....??.

Messianic Jewboy · Apr 6, 2014

visionary said:
It is probably back to discerning the weightier matters and in this case circumcision is a requirement for the Passover and not just the covenant requirement. It is interesting, because let's say that someone got nicked there for another reason. Because there is no official reason allowed for this injury, it would be decided that it is a marring, a disfigurement. The poor levite who got injuried in his privates would get his position in the temple taken away because of this ruling....??.

Depends if it's intentional or not.

visionary · Apr 6, 2014

Messianic Jewboy said:
Depends if it's intentional or not.

Explain further.... what difference does it make it if is intentional or not??

Messianic Jewboy · Apr 6, 2014

visionary said:
Explain further.... what difference does it make it if is intentional or not??

There is a difference between a willful sin and a sin that isn't willful(or intentional).

annier · Apr 6, 2014

visionary said:
It is probably back to discerning the weightier matters and in this case circumcision is a requirement for the Passover and not just the covenant requirement.

What do you mean Vis?
Is not Passover a feast memorializing the fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham 430 years earlier? Therefore how can you separate the two? Or in what way are you distinguishing between the two?

visionary · Apr 6, 2014

Messianic Jewboy said:
There is a difference between a willful sin and a sin that isn't willful(or intentional).

Who is talking sin? We are talking about cutting, intentionally or not, it has to be addressed whether there is a weightier matter in it for it to be determined a defect unbecoming a Levite.

David Ben Yosef · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
What do you mean Vis?
Is not Passover a feast memorializing the fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham 430 years earlier? Therefore how can you separate the two? Or in what way are you distinguishing between the two?

Those would be my questions to Viz as well. Also, there is nothing "weightier" than covenant requirements, so I don't understand what she means by "just a covenant requirement" as if that's not significant.

visionary · Apr 6, 2014

David Ben Yosef said:
Those would be my questions to Viz as well. Also, there is nothing "weightier" than covenant requirements, so I don't understand what she means by "just a covenant requirement" as if that's not significant.

The covenant requirement is done when you are eight days old, and not by your choice, while a Passover circumcision is done when you make a choice to do that which it takes to partake of the Passover.

visionary · Apr 6, 2014

annier said:
What do you mean Vis?
Is not Passover a feast memorializing the fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham 430 years earlier? Therefore how can you separate the two? Or in what way are you distinguishing between the two?

So infant circumcision of eight days old... memorializes Passover?? I can see the promise to Abraham start to happen at the Passover... I would like to hear more from you on this.

annier · Apr 7, 2014

visionary said:
So infant circumcision of eight days old... memorializes Passover??

What??? Where did this come from?????

visionary said:
I can see the promise to Abraham start to happen at the Passover... I would like to hear more from you on this.

The redemption from slavery in Egypt was a promise made in covenant to them in their Father Abraham 430 years earlier. Passover (aka unleavened bread) is a given feast to memorialize the fulfillment of that covenant promise. The promise was to the 4th generation of his seed. So I was asking how you distinguish between the circumcision and the passover from the covenant.

visionary · Apr 7, 2014

annier said:
What??? Where did this come from?????

it was in response to this

Is not Passover a feast memorializing the fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham 430 years earlier?

And I am like ....yeah right.... an eight day old infant circumcision is a fulfillment of the covenant.. like the infant could make that decision to be in a "covenant" relationship.

The redemption from slavery in Egypt was a promise made in covenant to them in their Father Abraham 430 years earlier. Passover (aka unleavened bread) is a given feast to memorialize the fulfillment of that covenant promise. The promise was to the 4th generation of his seed. So I was asking how you distinguish between the circumcision and the passover from the covenant.

Circumcision is a sign of a covenant. Passover is a feast, a mo'edim, a rehearsal or memorial.

annier · Apr 7, 2014

visionary said:
it was in response to this And I am like ....yeah right.... an eight day old infant circumcision is a fulfillment of the covenant..

Again, I do not understand where this idea is coming from? I cannot tell if this is your own comments or a mis application of mine? I have put forth the idea that....The redemption from Egypt is a fulfillment to the circumcision.

visionary said:
like the infant could make that decision to be in a "covenant" relationship.

What has this to do with anything? Circumcision is a sign they are children of promise, through the covenant of their fathers.

visionary said:
Circumcision is a sign of a covenant.

Exactly, see the above.

visionary said:
Passover is a feast, a mo'edim, a rehearsal or memorial.

It is a memorial given to remember the fulfillment of the covenant made with their fathers concerning themselves as the seed of the promise (the 4th generation). So where is the distinction between the feast and the covenant which is the source of the feast?

David Ben Yosef · Apr 7, 2014

visionary said:
The covenant requirement is done when you are eight days old, and not by your choice, while a Passover circumcision is done when you make a choice to do that which it takes to partake of the Passover.

It is the parents who are obeying the covenant mitzvah to circumcise their child on the eighth day. The gentile who converts to Judaism is circumcised, and then he can partake of Passover, but there is no such thing as a "Passover circumcision" so I have no idea where you got that from?

visionary · Apr 7, 2014

annier said:
Again, I do not understand where this idea is coming from? I cannot tell if this is your own comments or a mis application of mine? I have put forth the idea that....The redemption from Egypt is a fulfillment to the circumcision.
What has this to do with anything? Circumcision is a sign they are children of promise, through the covenant of their fathers.
Exactly, see the above.
It is a memorial given to remember the fulfillment of the covenant made with their fathers concerning themselves as the seed of the promise (the 4th generation). So where is the distinction between the feast and the covenant which is the source of the feast?

So is Passover also a covenant sign for the Gentiles who are circumcised? Is Circumcision the door by which Gentiles may enter into the same covenant with God?

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Levites and circumcision??

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