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Subduction Zone
Regular Member
Let's ask someone that can actually read Hebrew:
"Your pastor’s contention that “every place the word alma appears in the Bible it is always referring to a virgin” is incorrect and misleading. This is not the first time that I have come across a Christian leader who has made this erroneous assertion; and each and every time I encounter this wild contention, I am puzzled as to why these apologists do not do their research before making this claim. This is especially the case in our modern age where computer technology has made it possible to quickly and easily perform exhaustive word studies."
Does Alma Mean Virgin?
He finds at least one verse that shows alma is not virgin.
And the same author uses the Hebrew word specifically for "virgin" in that book of the Bible several times:
"Footnote:
1. In fact, although Isaiah used the Hebrew word almah only one time in his entire corpus (7:14), the prophet uses this word virgin (betulah) five times throughout the book of Isaiah (23:4; 23:12; 37:22; 47:1; 62:5)."
"Your pastor’s contention that “every place the word alma appears in the Bible it is always referring to a virgin” is incorrect and misleading. This is not the first time that I have come across a Christian leader who has made this erroneous assertion; and each and every time I encounter this wild contention, I am puzzled as to why these apologists do not do their research before making this claim. This is especially the case in our modern age where computer technology has made it possible to quickly and easily perform exhaustive word studies."
Does Alma Mean Virgin?
He finds at least one verse that shows alma is not virgin.
And the same author uses the Hebrew word specifically for "virgin" in that book of the Bible several times:
"Footnote:
1. In fact, although Isaiah used the Hebrew word almah only one time in his entire corpus (7:14), the prophet uses this word virgin (betulah) five times throughout the book of Isaiah (23:4; 23:12; 37:22; 47:1; 62:5)."
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The word ALMA refers to a young unmarried woman one of whose characteristics is virginity. There is no instance where the word ALMA is used to refer to a non-virgin. In such passages as Gen. 24:43 (compare Gen. 24:43 with 24:16 where BETULAH appears) and Song 1:3; 6:8 ALMA clearly refers to virgins. In fact the Hebrew Publishing Company Translation of 1916 translates ALMA as "virgin" in Gen. 24:43 and in Song 1:3; 6:8. Moreover an ancient Ugaritic tablet was discovered which uses ALMA in synonymous poetic parallelism as the synonymous parallel to the cognate of BETULAH. For this reason one of the worlds leading Semitists, Dr. Cyrus Gordon who is Jewish and does NOT believe in the virgin birth of Yeshua maintains that Is. 7:14 may be translated as "virgin" (Almah in Isaiah 7:14; Gordon, Cyrus H.; JBR 21:106). So why would Isaiah have used ALMA rather than BETULAH? Because a BETULAH can be a young married woman who is not a virgin, but pure because she is married (as in Joel 1:8).
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin [B'TULTA] shall conceive, and bear a son,
And call his name Immanuel.
(Is. 7:14)
The Aramaic word B'TULTA clearly means "virgin" and not simply "young lady".
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin [PARTHENOS] shall conceive, and bear a son,
And call his name Immanuel.
(Is. 7:14)
The Greek PARTHENOS means "virgin" and not simply "young lady".
Note the clear distinction to what is addressed to you(pl) and what is addressed to you(s) (Achaz) and how this creates a distinction between the newborn in verse 14 and the child in verse 16. Thus the birth in Is. 7:14 is not a sign to Achaz alone.
Now Isaiah 8:8-9:7 also speaks of this same "Immanuael" figure. Thus it is clear that the "Immanuel" of Is. 7:14 & 8:8 is also the child born in Isaiah 9:6-7.
Now the NT clearly applies these passages to Yeshua as Messiah. Rev. 21:3 alludes to Is. 7:14 & 8:8, 10. 1Kefa 3:14-15 cites Isaiah 8:12-13 in regards to Messiah. Romans 9:32 & 1Kefa 2: apply Is. 8:14 to Messiah. Hebrews 2:13 applies Isaiah 8:17-18 to Messiah. Finally Mt. 4:15-16 and Luke 1:79 apply Isaiah 8:23-9:1 (9:1-2) to Messiah.
Of the 5 surviving fragments of the ancient Netzarim Midrash on Isaiah, three of them fall in this section of Isaiah and all three apply the passages to Yeshua.
Moreover the Talmud applies Is. 8:14 to Messiah (b.San. 38a) and the Targum Jonathan on Isaiah applies Is. 9:6-7 to the Messiah as well.
Finally the figure in Isaiah 9:6-7 certainly seems to be the same as that in Is. 11:1f. This is important because EVEYONE agrees that Is. 11:1f refers to the Messiah.
Isaiah 7:14: The Virgin Birth of the Messiah
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Subduction Zone
Regular Member
anyatheword, why did you change the word that was used in Isaiah? The word used was not "b'tutlta" or any variation on it. That word actually does mean virgin. And the writer of Isaiah did use that word when he wanted to get across the concept that indeed a virgin was the subject. Isaiah used the word "almah" meaning young lady.
Now since it would be extremely amazing if a virgin had a baby why did he not use that specific word that he had used elsewhere. Instead he used the ambiguous word "almah" which means young woman.
And you still have not even touched upon the multiple errors about the Roman census.
Now since it would be extremely amazing if a virgin had a baby why did he not use that specific word that he had used elsewhere. Instead he used the ambiguous word "almah" which means young woman.
And you still have not even touched upon the multiple errors about the Roman census.
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Subduction Zone
Regular Member
And repeating an error, that Almah had not been used for a nonvirgin, does not help your side. In the Song of Solomon there is a an example of Almah definitely not meaning virgin but young woman.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Could it also be translated as maiden? A maiden is a young unmarried woman, often inferred or assumed to be a virgin. Gotta love Hebrew.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Don't confuse Marxist with your ideas of communism seen in the Soviet Union, Marxism (which is highly idealistic in my opinion) in its original form is closer to socialism than communism.
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Subduction Zone
Regular Member
Yes, an alma is a maiden. Usually a virgin, but not necessarily. What is very significant is that there is a specific word that means virgin that the author of Isaiah used elsewhere, but here where we have what would have been the most significant virgin ever he does not use that term.
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Before engaging in vile speculation about the character of Jewish women and in particular, the one God chose, and Gabriel spoke to, the context should be looked at. The context was a prophesy where a great great great and wonderful sign would come one day, a virgin would conceive and bring forth the Messiah. There would be no sign if it was not a virgin.
Also, of Eve it was said that she would bring forth seed that would defeat the serpent one day. Man gives the seed! The virgin birth was the only witnessed, and confirmed virgin birth in all of the history of man.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Uh, no, Marx's actual works and theories should be taken into consideration when thinking about Marxism, which generally adheres to his ideas much more strongly than any practiced Communism.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Just making sure that the was no likely typo done early on. I love how you can easily see certain bits of the bible have typos that must have gone uncorrected long enough that people thought they weren't mistakes.
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" The historical record suggests that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city, but the siege of the island probably ended with the nominal submission of the city in which Tyre surrendered without receiving the hostile army within her walls (p. 45). The city of Tyre was besieged by Nebuchadnezzar, who did major damage to the mainland as Ezekiel predicted, but the island city remained primarily unaffected. It is at this point in the discussion that certain skeptics view Ezekiels prophecy as a failed prediction. Farrell Till stated: Nebuchadnezzar did capture the mainland suburb of Tyre, but he never succeeded in taking the island part, which was the seat of Tyrian grandeur. That being so, it could hardly be said that Nebuchadnezzar wreaked the total havoc on Tyre that Ezekiel vituperatively predicted in the passages cited (n.d.). Till and others suggest that the prophecies about Tyres utter destruction refer to the work of Nebuchadnezzar.
After a closer look at the text, however, such an interpretation is misguided. Ezekiel began his prophecy by stating that many nations would come against Tyre (26:3). Then he proceeded to name Nebuchadnezzar, and stated that he would build a siege mound, he would slay with the sword, and he would do numerous other things (26:7-11). However, in 26:12, the pronoun shifts from the singular he to the plural they. It is in verse 12 and following that Ezekiel predicts that they will lay the stones and building material of Tyre in the midst of the waters. The shift in pronouns is of vast significance, since it shifts the subject of the action from Nebuchadnezzar (he) back to the many nations (they). Till and others fail to see this shift and mistakenly apply the utter destruction of Tyre to the efforts of Nebuchadnezzar.
Furthermore, Ezekiel was well aware of Nebuchadnezzars failure to destroy the city. Sixteen years after his initial prediction, in the 27th year of Johoiachins captivity (circa 570 [SIZE=-1]B.C.[/SIZE]), he wrote: Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it (29:18). Therefore, in regard to the prophecy of Tyre as it relates to Nebuchadnezzars activity, at least two of the elements were fulfilled (i.e., the siege mound and the slaying of the inhabitants in the field)."
https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1790
I would think that the final fulfillment would be in the end. We see that Tyre is prophesied to be here at the end!!
Ps 87:4 -I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
Mt 11:22 -But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. The end time period, or day of the Lord as it is also called, involves Tyre.
Joel 3:1-8 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; So we have Nebuchadnezzar doing things, Alexander, and also the final fulfillment in the end.
Is there anyone who actually knows the bible and prophesy that would disagree with me on this?
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Citing an apologetics site isn't going to help your case on here dad, haven't you been around long enough to figure that out?
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Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history."[11] Revolutionary socialist governments espousing Marxist concepts took power in a variety of countries in the 20th century, leading to the formation of such socialist states as the Soviet Union in 1922 and the People's Republic of China in 1949"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx
Stalin and Mao do not seem to be the greatest fruits.
One fellow summed Marx's stuff up this way--
"
Marx's theoretical atheism is the consequence of three postulates: 1) metaphysical or dialectical materialism which considers matter as the supreme and unique cause of everything;
2) historical materialism, according to which the economic factor is the principal and decisive factor, and the economic structure is the carrying structure of all the other structures that compose society;
3) absolute humanism, which sets man at the summit of the cosmos: man is the supreme being.
THE ATHEISM OF KARL MARX
Satanic trash in other words.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
I am not supporting Marxism, I will make that very very clear, I already said it was too idealistic to ever hope to actually work, and yes, communism in Soviet Russia and China is based off of his work, but in Marxism there is no strong national government. Rather, locally resources are distributed as needed, while all people work as hard as they can to the best that they can be for a roughly equal portion of resources, with no rich and no poor.
Humans aren't mindless ants, so I always view this as inevitably going wrong, and history kinda shows that people just aren't responsible enough not to seize power when there is a power gap.
I also don't support the fact that Marx would have expected religion to be eliminated, I am not an antitheist, I don't feel that religion in and of itself is bad.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
I saw that too, so you shouldn't bother with the apologetics site still, because it distracts.
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