Messianic Halakha

pat34lee

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I fear and tremble at the thought of what God is going to bring to those people who hate and despise them.

Whatever they want to believe is fine with me.

Whatever they have need of is theirs from me.

There is no excuse to hate Jews or any group. There is as much reason to not accept their errors as to not accept errors from Christians or other groups. It sounds like you have Jews on a pedestal, which is as bad in its way as despising them. They are people, good and bad, like any other. The fact that Yahuah chose them is the only thing that makes them special, nothing that they are or do. The same goes for any who follow Yeshua. We are nothing, Yahuah is all.
 
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pat34lee

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One wonders whether the holocaust would have happened if the Germans had remained Wotanists instead of becoming Catholic/Protestant.

What if they had never learned the fable of evolution? Part of their justification was that they were the most advanced race and had to preserve their genetic 'purity' from the less evolved people. This ideal was shared by those who promoted abortion and sterilization of the lower classes in America.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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There is no excuse to hate Jews or any group. There is as much reason to not accept their errors as to not accept errors from Christians or other groups. It sounds like you have Jews on a pedestal, which is as bad in its way as despising them. They are people, good and bad, like any other. The fact that Yahuah chose them is the only thing that makes them special, nothing that they are or do. The same goes for any who follow Yeshua. We are nothing, Yahuah is all.

I do put them as my Lords and masters, my fathers, and even they don't like it.

But then I am so smart, you would be surprised, I could add 2 and 2 so fast.


Do you know how many scriptures that I can produce that tell me to be a true servant to Israel?


Should I begin?


Would it make a difference?


Do you know what happens to a gentile who sees himself as a servant to Jews?


You take a gentile who actually believes what God has said concerning Judah and the nations, a gentile who leaps at the chance to be a servant.


If the gentile has given up his time and money, he goes to see them in the hospital, he feeds and clothes them. He helps them return to the land of their fathers, and he himself spends his own money to symbolically carry them upon his shoulders, would this gentile deserve a reward for giving over his life to Jews who don't even believe in Jesus?


Nope, a servant is not rewarded for simply doing what he was created to do.


And If a Gentile has done these things because he believed the scriptures spoken about blessing Israel, he finds great hope, because even though he doesn't deserve a reward, he is yet given one, and given a new name.


He is counted amongst Israel and has the same inheritance.



If I can produce so many scriptures about gentiles being servants to Jews, how am I in the least, wrong?




But you be the judge.


Two dudes get in a car wreck and pop up at the pearly gates to speak to Saint Peter.


One is a Gentile, and one is a Jew.


The Gentile had been the greatest servant to the Jew, and he put the Jew on a pedestal, seeing to all his needs.


Is it greater to be a servant, or is it greater to master?


Neither, one is nothing without the other.


Jesus made one man out of two, but if you cut the man in half, what do you have but a half a man?

I am in a marriage with them, they are nothing without me, and I am nothing without them.


Did Jesus tell gentiles to become servants to Jews?

Did Jesus talk about his brethren the Jews, and the people who would care for them?
 
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ContraMundum

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That's a very poorly researched and written article. I can't believe you'd put it on the table. I'm astonished that you actually think that had any merit.

Let's not fool ourselves here- both you and I know (or at least should know) that there are parts of the LXX that do in fact enhance the (very much later compiled) Masoretic text. The LXX predates the Masoretic by 950 years, and many of the Hebrew texts which were used to translate it by over a millenia. For example Ps. 145 is acrostic, but verse 13 is missing from the MT, but found in the LXX- making sense of the Psalm- again confirmed by the DSS. There's quite a few more, but there's no point in getting into it because I seriously doubt you will change your opinion, and I don't waste time with that kind of thing.
 
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The claim that there is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible that predates Christ, known as the "Septuagint" [LXX] is utterly false. Hence, the LXX does NOT exist. Period.

What a load of nonsense. Seriously....this line of reasoning of yours is so bad it is reportable as anti-missionary. The links you've cited are hilarious, btw.
 
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visionary

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What if they had never learned the fable of evolution? Part of their justification was that they were the most advanced race and had to preserve their genetic 'purity' from the less evolved people. This ideal was shared by those who promoted abortion and sterilization of the lower classes in America.
Evolution... I never believed it..
969287_749082495122926_1752583295_n.jpg
 
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visionary

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For the Passover unleavened Bread... how about some soft unleavened bread??

3 cups whole wheat flour
1 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 cups goat's milk
4 eggs
2 tablespoons butter
Directions:

1 Mix flour and salt together. Mix eggs and oil together. Add dry to wet and then add milk.
2 Beat dough at high speed for 2-3 minutes with electric mixer. Pour onto greased cookie sheet. Bake at 450F for 15 - 20 minutes. *The bigger the pan, the thinner the bread so keep an eye on it*.
3 When done baking, remove from oven and slice into sandwich slices. Can be used immediately or stored in refrigerator for up to a week.

http://www.food.com/recipe/soft-unleavened-bread-411521?oc=linkback
 
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visionary

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Here is one Judaism Halacha that I wish we didn't follow. Most Jewish rabbinical authorities have determined that tunas and flatfishes (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole and turbot) are clean kosher fish. Most Jewish kosher certification authorities state that in order for a fish to be scripturally clean and kosher, it must have fins and scales. I think we all can agree with this.

They have also determined that the types of scales that clean kosher fish must have are clenoid or cycloid scales that can be easily removed with fingers OR A KNIFE without causing damage to the skin (kaskeses) of the fish. I see that is a good way of determining the type of scales.

Jewish rabbinical authorities have determined that tunas and flatfishes (flounder, fluke, halibut, plaice, soles and turbot) are clean, based on the fact that they have some type of clenoid or cycloid scales on their bodies. Notice I said "some".

Deut 14:9-10 Lev 11:9-12 These you may eat of all that are in the waters: you may eat all that have fins and scales. And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you.

What did God mean by “and scales?” The dietary commands were given to the Hebrews at Sinai. They were issued to them in a language and terminology that they understood at the time. Tunas and flatfishes would not be fish that these Hebrews would consider clean, scaled fish. These Hebrews would not have inspected fish with microscopes, that didn’t exist at the time, to check for scales. They would have observed tuna as a fish without visible scales, or if they spotted the few scales a tuna possesses, then they likely would say that tuna is a fish that is primarily a skin fish. These Hebrews would have inspected flatfishes and regarded them as unclean, due to their scales not being easily visible or removable. I say that clean kosher fish should have scales that are not covered by skin, visible to the naked eye, and cover the entire body of the fish, and are easily scraped off or can be removed with fingers.

Scale:
any of the numerous plates, made of various substances resembling enamel or dentine,
COVERING THE BODIES of fishes [1].

The definition of “scale(s),” in regards to fish, infers that scaled fish are fish whose bodies are covered with scales. Partially-scaled fish, that are primarily skin fish, should not be considered a scaled fish.

Scales prevent fish from becoming unclean through parasitic worm infections. Scales do not make a fish clean, but rather protect a fish from becoming unclean. A partially-scaled fish, that is primarily a skin fish, is not protected from parasitic infections and these types of fish are often infested with parasitic worms throughout their bodies.

TUNA FISH

Tunas typically have very few, small, minute, almost microscopic scales in discreet areas of their body, typically near their head and tail fin. Tunas are PRIMARILY a scale-less, skin fish, which is why they should be considered UNCLEAN.

Tunas have varying unsafe levels of mercury content; something they shouldn’t have if they were a clean fish and safe for human consumption. The dangerous mercury content in tuna is a red flag that indicates that there is something not quite kosher about tuna.

Tunas, as a fish that is primarily a scale-less, skin fish, are often infested with parasites. They do not have scales covering the vast majority of their large bodies to protect them from parasites that can easily penetrate their unprotected skin.

FLATFISHES

Flatfish (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole and turbot) are similar looking, bottom dwelling, bottom feeding, scaled fish. The scales of flatfish are imbedded in their skin and cannot be easily removed. The top, dark side of these fish have “rough” scales that can be removed (with a knife). The bottom white side of the fish is typically very smooth and has very few scales, if any.

All flatfishes are compressed laterally and spend most of their life lying and swimming along the bottom of the waters on their side. This makes them susceptible to parasitic infection, but not all worms in the flesh of flatfish originate on the outside, through their skin. As bottom feeders, flatfish eat parasites that contain worms that often will work their way through the intestines and into the flesh of these fish. Many of the characteristics and traits of flatfishes are shared by other unclean creatures and flatfishes lack some characteristics of other clean creatures. For example.... Flatfishes have two eyes on the same side of their head that are capable of independently rotating almost 360 degrees, giving these fish depth perception and an excellent field of vision. This enables them, as a predatory fish, to more easily spot and capture prey. Most other fish have eyes located on opposite sides of their head, each eye generating an independent image.

All clean mammals, birds and insects have eyes on the opposite sides of their heads. Unclean predator mammals, birds and insects have stereoscopic or binocular vision, enabling them to more easily spot and capture prey.

Another example of difference is that many flatfishes can rapidly change the color and pattern of their skin to match their surroundings. This is a trait that flatfish share with octopuses.

These fish are ambush predators. Flatfishes lie-in-wait, positioning themselves on the sea floor, often camouflaged, and ambush their prey when they crawl or swim by. All lie-in-wait, ambush, predator mammals, birds and insects are unclean. Therefore, it would stand to reason that all lie-in-wait, ambush, predator flatfish are unclean.

They swim horizontally not vertical like a clean fish. Flatfishes swim in a horizontal plane, rather than in a vertical, back-up/belly-down, orientation as most other fishes do. When they swim, flatfishes tend to glide only an inch (2.54 cm) or so off the bottom while closely following the contour of the sea floor. Flatfishes swim horizontally, as do unclean manta ray sharks.

They don't swim in schools. Flatfishes do not group together and swim in schools, but swim independently. All clean mammals group together in herds; all clean birds group together in flocks; and all clean insects group together in colonies (and can swarm together when in large numbers). All clean fish should therefore group together and swim in schools. Think about the school of fish that peter's net picked up.
LUKE 5:4-6: When He had stopped speaking, He said to Simon, “Launch out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch.” But Simon answered and said to Him, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word I will let down the net.” And when they had done this, they caught a great number of fish, and their net was breaking.

Bottom dwelling fish are not caught in nets, but by spears or hooks. Flatfish were not the kind of fish that Peter the fisherman, a man who never ate anything unclean, would have caught in nets.

Many believers may think that they are keeping kosher by avoiding pork and shellfish, while not realizing that most fish meals sold in fast food restaurants are unclean tuna or some kind of unclean flatfish (in fish and chips). Kosher conscious believers need to put tuna and flatfish on their list of unclean creatures not to be eaten and be cautious and inquire about fish type when ordering fish from restaurants.

I say that Jewish rabbinical authority is NOT the final authority on determining clean and unclean fish. Rabbinical authorities rejected Messiah. They should not be considered infallible on the topic of kosher certification or determining clean and unclean creatures.

Rabbinical kosher certifying authorities err on classifying clean fish in two ways.

1. They believe that tunas, that have a few indiscreet scattered scales throughout their mostly scale-less bodies, are to be considered clean and kosher.

2. They believe that flatfishes that have rough imbedded scales, but are removable (with a knife), are to be considered clean and kosher.

I would like this to be Messianic Judaism Halacha.
 
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In certain circles theology is becoming an driving force like the UMJC. The MJAA isn't on a theological path.
What do you mean by "a theological path"? I think there well may have been a theological path taken by the mjaa as a result of criticism from the rabbinic community. As the mjaa shifted to respond to rabbinic criticism, there was a theology to agree with the "shift". I would think it is obvious whatever theology was adopted was absent before (at least in universal Messianic teaching), or no "shift" would have occurred as there would have been no need?
 
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HannibalFlavius

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A Tuna is a devouring fish that swallows up hordes of other fishes.


It is through the diet of a tuna that mercury and pollutants enter a tuna some times.
Same goes with most big fish that way, sometimes their diet makes them a problem for human consumption.
 
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Lulav

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It sounds like you have Jews on a pedestal, which is as bad in its way as despising them. They are people, good and bad, like any other. The fact that Yahuah chose them is the only thing that makes them special, nothing that they are or do.

While I agree that Jews should not be put on a pedestal nor under it do you really think that the only thing that makes Jews special is because G-d choose us?

You say its not because of anything they are or do, yet that is opposite of what the bible says.

G-d choose Abraham, he then promised him a special child, to this special child Isaac went the promise and it was only because Abraham did as G-d commanded him to do.

The covenant was made and kept by G-d for the reason of this. They were made into a nation, set free from Egypt and brought to the wilderness where the covenant was given, this covenant was a marriage contract. No other nation was given this. It is in the Ten commandments but is usually skipped over. It is the second commandment.

Commandment #1 - 1 And God spake all these words, saying , 2 I am the L-RD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


Commandment #2 --- 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the L-RD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Even when we have gone astray he has not gone back on his word. The reason Jews exist today is to show that there is a One True G-d and he is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Everyone knows that even today, Jews are unproportionatly blessed in the Arts, Sciences, Technologies, Medicine, you name it. Is it just a coincidence? I think not.
 
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Lulav

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Here is one Judaism Halacha that I wish we didn't follow. Most Jewish rabbinical authorities have determined that tunas and flatfishes (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole and turbot) are clean kosher fish. Most Jewish kosher certification authorities state that in order for a fish to be scripturally clean and kosher, it must have fins and scales. I think we all can agree with this.

They have also determined that the types of scales that clean kosher fish must have are clenoid or cycloid scales that can be easily removed with fingers OR A KNIFE without causing damage to the skin (kaskeses) of the fish. I see that is a good way of determining the type of scales.

Jewish rabbinical authorities have determined that tunas and flatfishes (flounder, fluke, halibut, plaice, soles and turbot) are clean, based on the fact that they have some type of clenoid or cycloid scales on their bodies. Notice I said "some".



What did God mean by “and scales?” The dietary commands were given to the Hebrews at Sinai. They were issued to them in a language and terminology that they understood at the time. Tunas and flatfishes would not be fish that these Hebrews would consider clean, scaled fish. These Hebrews would not have inspected fish with microscopes, that didn’t exist at the time, to check for scales. They would have observed tuna as a fish without visible scales, or if they spotted the few scales a tuna possesses, then they likely would say that tuna is a fish that is primarily a skin fish. These Hebrews would have inspected flatfishes and regarded them as unclean, due to their scales not being easily visible or removable. I say that clean kosher fish should have scales that are not covered by skin, visible to the naked eye, and cover the entire body of the fish, and are easily scraped off or can be removed with fingers.

Scale:
any of the numerous plates, made of various substances resembling enamel or dentine,
COVERING THE BODIES of fishes [1].

The definition of “scale(s),” in regards to fish, infers that scaled fish are fish whose bodies are covered with scales. Partially-scaled fish, that are primarily skin fish, should not be considered a scaled fish.

Scales prevent fish from becoming unclean through parasitic worm infections. Scales do not make a fish clean, but rather protect a fish from becoming unclean. A partially-scaled fish, that is primarily a skin fish, is not protected from parasitic infections and these types of fish are often infested with parasitic worms throughout their bodies.

TUNA FISH

Tunas typically have very few, small, minute, almost microscopic scales in discreet areas of their body, typically near their head and tail fin. Tunas are PRIMARILY a scale-less, skin fish, which is why they should be considered UNCLEAN.

Tunas have varying unsafe levels of mercury content; something they shouldn’t have if they were a clean fish and safe for human consumption. The dangerous mercury content in tuna is a red flag that indicates that there is something not quite kosher about tuna.

Tunas, as a fish that is primarily a scale-less, skin fish, are often infested with parasites. They do not have scales covering the vast majority of their large bodies to protect them from parasites that can easily penetrate their unprotected skin.

FLATFISHES

Flatfish (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole and turbot) are similar looking, bottom dwelling, bottom feeding, scaled fish. The scales of flatfish are imbedded in their skin and cannot be easily removed. The top, dark side of these fish have “rough” scales that can be removed (with a knife). The bottom white side of the fish is typically very smooth and has very few scales, if any.

All flatfishes are compressed laterally and spend most of their life lying and swimming along the bottom of the waters on their side. This makes them susceptible to parasitic infection, but not all worms in the flesh of flatfish originate on the outside, through their skin. As bottom feeders, flatfish eat parasites that contain worms that often will work their way through the intestines and into the flesh of these fish. Many of the characteristics and traits of flatfishes are shared by other unclean creatures and flatfishes lack some characteristics of other clean creatures. For example.... Flatfishes have two eyes on the same side of their head that are capable of independently rotating almost 360 degrees, giving these fish depth perception and an excellent field of vision. This enables them, as a predatory fish, to more easily spot and capture prey. Most other fish have eyes located on opposite sides of their head, each eye generating an independent image.

All clean mammals, birds and insects have eyes on the opposite sides of their heads. Unclean predator mammals, birds and insects have stereoscopic or binocular vision, enabling them to more easily spot and capture prey.

Another example of difference is that many flatfishes can rapidly change the color and pattern of their skin to match their surroundings. This is a trait that flatfish share with octopuses.

These fish are ambush predators. Flatfishes lie-in-wait, positioning themselves on the sea floor, often camouflaged, and ambush their prey when they crawl or swim by. All lie-in-wait, ambush, predator mammals, birds and insects are unclean. Therefore, it would stand to reason that all lie-in-wait, ambush, predator flatfish are unclean.

They swim horizontally not vertical like a clean fish. Flatfishes swim in a horizontal plane, rather than in a vertical, back-up/belly-down, orientation as most other fishes do. When they swim, flatfishes tend to glide only an inch (2.54 cm) or so off the bottom while closely following the contour of the sea floor. Flatfishes swim horizontally, as do unclean manta ray sharks.

They don't swim in schools. Flatfishes do not group together and swim in schools, but swim independently. All clean mammals group together in herds; all clean birds group together in flocks; and all clean insects group together in colonies (and can swarm together when in large numbers). All clean fish should therefore group together and swim in schools. Think about the school of fish that peter's net picked up.

Bottom dwelling fish are not caught in nets, but by spears or hooks. Flatfish were not the kind of fish that Peter the fisherman, a man who never ate anything unclean, would have caught in nets.

Many believers may think that they are keeping kosher by avoiding pork and shellfish, while not realizing that most fish meals sold in fast food restaurants are unclean tuna or some kind of unclean flatfish (in fish and chips). Kosher conscious believers need to put tuna and flatfish on their list of unclean creatures not to be eaten and be cautious and inquire about fish type when ordering fish from restaurants.

I say that Jewish rabbinical authority is NOT the final authority on determining clean and unclean fish. Rabbinical authorities rejected Messiah. They should not be considered infallible on the topic of kosher certification or determining clean and unclean creatures.

Rabbinical kosher certifying authorities err on classifying clean fish in two ways.

1. They believe that tunas, that have a few indiscreet scattered scales throughout their mostly scale-less bodies, are to be considered clean and kosher.

2. They believe that flatfishes that have rough imbedded scales, but are removable (with a knife), are to be considered clean and kosher.

I would like this to be Messianic Judaism Halacha.


Oh Vis, I love Flounder, and just found a place I could eat it Gluten free! :o

I do agree that when G-d gave a commandment it should be considered when in history it was given and what means were available to determine.

As you don't need a microscope to determine about a split hoof or not or to observe if an animal chews the cud, so should the determinate be of examining fish.

Basically from what I've been able to determine, G-d may have allowed us to eat meat but we should remember we were once herbivores and I think he only wants us to eat any animals that are also herbivores with exceptions that he put into place.

For instance we can eat lambs, lambs eat grass
We can't eat Lions because Lions eat Lambs

Sardines are a good kosher fish because they eat plankton, a sea plantlife. They are always available in the Kosher section and are canned to take anywhere.
 
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daq

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For instance we can eat lambs, lambs eat grass
We can't eat Lions because Lions eat Lambs

Hey wait a minute! If Yeshua is the Lamb of Elohim then what did he eat? And if you can eat lambs but not lions because lions eat lambs then how do you know you are not a lion, (or lioness)? :D :wave:
 
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Hey wait a minute! If Yeshua is the Lamb of Elohim then what did he eat? And if you can eat lambs but not lions because lions eat lambs then how do you know you are not a lion, (or lioness)? :D :wave:

You should be feeling quite sheepish after a post like that :D:D
 
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pat34lee

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While I agree that Jews should not be put on a pedestal nor under it do you really think that the only thing that makes Jews special is because G-d choose us?

You say its not because of anything they are or do, yet that is opposite of what the bible says.

G-d choose Abraham, he then promised him a special child, to this special child Isaac went the promise and it was only because Abraham did as G-d commanded him to do.

The covenant was made and kept by G-d for the reason of this. They were made into a nation, set free from Egypt and brought to the wilderness where the covenant was given, this covenant was a marriage contract. No other nation was given this. It is in the Ten commandments but is usually skipped over. It is the second commandment.

Commandment #1 - 1 And God spake all these words, saying , 2 I am the L-RD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Commandment #2 --- 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the L-RD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Even when we have gone astray he has not gone back on his word. The reason Jews exist today is to show that there is a One True G-d and he is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Everyone knows that even today, Jews are unproportionately blessed in the Arts, Sciences, Technologies, Medicine, you name it. Is it just a coincidence? I think not.

It looks like you proved my point. God chose Israel because they were small, weak and contrary. He knew they would continually go astray from him. Every covenant he made with them was based on his word and his faithfulness, not that of any person. Out of the times when they deserved to be destroyed, only his word to them and his mercy prevented him.

Before I am accused again of hating Jews, or single them out unfairly, would any other group of people have done better than them? I very much doubt it. It seems most people who believe in him have the habit of going to God when things get bad and forgetting him when they are good.
 
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You should be feeling quite sheepish after a post like that :D:D

:blush: Happy is the lion that a man will eat because the lion will become that man.
Unclean is the man that the lion will eat because the lion still becomes that man.
Him with spirit ears let him hear, (Thomas #7, Daniel 4:16, Daniel 7:4, Revelation 13:2). :D :)
 
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