Chronology of Messiah

daq · Mar 28, 2014

Interplanner said:
sorry guys, but it's past tense. It was an event that had to do with the most auspicious generation of Israel, that of 30-70 AD.

The expression began in Daniel by referring to a Jewish rebel who would be coming and leading the 'rebellion that desolates' (Israel). Then ch 9 gives a timestamp. If a person can't see the events of the generation mentioned in the last paragraph of Dan 9, I don't think there's much that can be done to get you up to speed on what has taken place. But its how Caiaphas, Josephus and the early church saw the situation. "This generation will not pass until all this is fulfilled."

Perhaps the following from another thread will help get you "up to speed" as you say. There are four generations to the man like the four seasons in a full year as designed by the great Designer. The same four generations are four dominions which are in turn ruled by the four carnal beast-like natures of carnal man because the natural and carnal man is likened to a beast throughout the Scripture. The first beast of the heart is a lion or a lioness and is known by the words which come forth from the mouth of the man; for what comes forth from the mouth proceeds from the heart of the man in the doctrine of Yeshua. For the same reason the wild beast of Revelation 13 has the mouth of a lion which is the same first beast of Daniel 7. These things are revealed in HaNavi Daniel but are found only in the chapters which are largely ignored by the so-called modern prophecy experts. The heart of Nebuchadnezzar is given to a wild beast until seven times pass over him and he finally undergoes his exorcism. Likewise the same wild beast of a lion or lioness, (Septuagint) is given the heart of a man in Daniel 7 and this is no coincidence but concerns the same thing only seen from a different perspective.

daq said:
Having spoken in the holy Mountain with Mosheh and Eliyahu, (being confirmed to his talmidim by the voice of the Father from the effervescent cloud of Light) Yeshua and three of his talmidim came down from the holy Mountain to the multitude: and there came unto him a certain man, kneeling down to him, saying, Master, have mercy on my son; for he is lunatic moonstruck, and sore vexed: for often times he falls into the fire, and often times into the water. And I brought him to thy talmidim, and they could not cure him. Then Yeshua answers and says, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him here to me. And censured him Yeshua; and departed out of him the daimonion: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the talmidim unto Yeshua themselves apart, saying, Why could not we cast him out? And says Yeshua unto them, Because of your unbelief, and he answers thus:

Yeshua says: Verily I say unto you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say unto this mountain; Depart from here to there! and it shall depart, and nothing shall be impossible unto you! Howbeit this genos-kind does not go out except with prayer and fasting. (Mattityahu 17:14-21).

Yeshua says the daimonion-devils are like "mountains" of the evil genos-kind.

Again not long thereafter Yeshua sees a fig tree in the way, and goes up to it, and finds nothing thereon, but leaves only, and says unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withers away. And when the talmidim see it, they wonder, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! And he answers unto them:

Yeshua says: Verily I say unto you, If you have faith, and doubt not, you shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if you shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken away and cast into the sea! it shall be done. (Mattityahu 21:19-21).

Yeshua says the daimonion-devils are like evil mountains and evil fig trees.

So I looked into the mirror of Torah at myself; only to find an Amorite warrior king from the shadowy shades of my past staring back at me, and I said to the mountain in the name of Yeshua: "Be thou taken away and cast into the sea!" And it came to pass in a latter appointed time that there was a day when the sons of Elohim presented themselves before the Most High: and the adversary was also there among them, and there was war in the heavens, and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and tremors in my earth, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea.

Yeshua rejoicing in the Spirit Holy says: I thank thee, O Father, Master of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto children: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. (Lukas 10:21).

As the four seasons in a full year there be likewise four "generations" to the man; autumn, winter, spring, and the summer of his harvest: for the Most High is merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children of the children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Proverbs 30:11-17 KJV
11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13. There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14. There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
15. The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:
16. The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.
17. The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

Daniel 7:7 KJV
7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The fourth generation has teeth as swords and jaw teeth as knives which are made of iron.
The fourth generation has a leach with two daughters making a sum of seven:

Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

Perhaps the queen of the south is a queen with seven heads?
A lioness, a four-headed leopardess, a she-bear robbed of her cubs, and an eagle?
Sounds like an illegal marriage-covenant as in the days of Noach, (or Devarim 7:1-4).

daq · Mar 28, 2014

Interplanner said:
sorry guys, but it's past tense. It was an event that had to do with the most auspicious generation of Israel, that of 30-70 AD.

The expression began in Daniel by referring to a Jewish rebel who would be coming and leading the 'rebellion that desolates' (Israel). Then ch 9 gives a timestamp. If a person can't see the events of the generation mentioned in the last paragraph of Dan 9, I don't think there's much that can be done to get you up to speed on what has taken place. But its how Caiaphas, Josephus and the early church saw the situation. "This generation will not pass until all this is fulfilled."

Tell me Interplanner: how do you Preterists keep the following statements if you say that most everything was fulfilled in 70AD? How can you simply ignore the commandment of Yeshua to WATCH! in Mark 13? While it is true that it says he spoke only to four talmidim in that passage it seems to me that the Preterists always ignore the final statements in the passage and especially the very last closing statement which is clearly written and addressed TO ALL:

Mark 13:28-37 KJV
28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29. So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

How is it the Preterists are keeping watch for anything at all from this passage? Does the thought of not carrying out the commandments of Yeshua not alarm you? Do you honestly believe you have nothing to be watching for? As stated to Bible2 we are put in charge of our houses while the Master is as if being "away in a far journey" just as he says above in the passage. Heaven and earth shall pass away but his words shall never pass away and therefore you are the one who is not up to speed because you think you are safe and secure already in "peace and safety" when you are supposed to be watching, and engaged in supernal spiritual warfare. There is no easier man to conquer than one who thinks he has already won the war after the first skirmish. ^_^

John 10:1-4 KJV
1. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

daq · Mar 28, 2014

Douggg said:
In Daniel 12, the abomination of desolation will be setup for 1290 days. Blessed is he who waits till the 1335th day.

That has nothing to do with taking place in the heart.

And when it is setup to be worshipped, them in Judea are to flee to the mountains.

Again from the OP link which you have obviously ignored:

Yeshua says to the congregation of Smyrna: "You shall have tribulation Ten Days" and those Ten Days are as Ten Great Days which likewise HaNavi Daniel was tested from the commencement of his walk through unto the end of the days written in Daniel 12:9-13.

Daniel 1:11-14 KJV
11. Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,
12. Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
13. Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
14. So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.

Revelation 2:8-11 KJV
8. And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

These Ten Days are the Ten Great Days wherein the Tamiyd is taken from the sons of the bridechamber and therefore they fast. And within those Ten Days are Seventy Weeks: and at the End of the Days are Three Days and the Hemisu, to each talmid in his or her own appointed times, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
Chronology of Messiah

Understand? How can there be Seventy Weeks in Ten Great Days?
THERE ARE INDEED IF YOU WILL RECEIVE AND HEED TORAH!

Revelation 10:8-11 ASV
8. And the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard it again speaking with me, and saying, Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel that standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9. And I went unto the angel, saying unto him that he should give me the little book. And he saith unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.
10. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and when I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter.
11. And they say unto me, Thou must prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.

Rightly divide! . . .

Douggg · Mar 28, 2014

daq said:
Again from the OP link which you have obviously ignored:

Yeshua says to the congregation of Smyrna: "You shall have tribulation Ten Days" and those Ten Days are as Ten Great Days which likewise HaNavi Daniel was tested from the commencement of his walk through unto the end of the days written in Daniel 12:9-13. The remaining Ten Days fill up the 490 Days to each in his own appointed times.

It's 1290 days and 1335 days. Not ten days. The abomination of desolation has nothing to do with being in one's heart.

Bible2 · Mar 29, 2014

daq said in post 37:

YOU are the temple of God according to the very same author:

Amen.

Every Christian's individual human body is a temple (1 Corinthians 6:19). And there's also the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21). Yet such human bodies aren't the only temples of God. For they coexist with the figurative temple building of the church as a whole (Ephesians 2:21), and with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). And if such human-body temples can currently coexist with these other temples of God, they will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

daq said in post 37:

Acts 7:47-51 KJV
47. But Solomon built him an house.
48. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49. Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50. Hath not my hand made all these things?
51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Amen.

And Acts 7:48-50, like Acts 17:24, refers (as you pointed out) back to the principle of Isaiah 66:1-2a. Yet this was true even at the time of Solomon's temple (2 Chronicles 2:6). It means the Creator God YHWH is too big to dwell only in temples made with hands. For it's not contradicting that God did dwell in Solomon's temple in the earthly Jerusalem (1 Kings 8:11), and then in the 2nd temple in the earthly Jerusalem (Matthew 23:21). And so nothing requires God won't also dwell in the 3rd temple which will be built in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and then in the 4th temple which will be built in the earthly Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13).

daq said in post 37:

2 John 1:7-11 KJV
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Amen.

Any person is an antichrist who denies Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the first century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

That is, the existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who's commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict there's an individual man (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

The man commonly called the Antichrist is the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He's the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

daq said in post 37:

YOU are given the keys to the dominion and charge over a house, your body, which is no longer your own body-house if you have indeed committed yourself to the teachings and doctrines of Yeshua the Messiah.

2 John 1:10 refers to one's literal house, i.e. the literal building that is one's usual dwelling.

*******

daq said in post 43:

Revelation 2:8-11 KJV
8. And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

These Ten Days are the Ten Great Days wherein the Tamiyd is taken from the sons of the bridechamber and therefore they fast.

The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey). The 10 days of Revelation 2:10 were 10 literal days that already happened in ancient times, just as Revelation 3:10 already happened in ancient times.

Revelation 2:10 shows that Satan is sometimes allowed to harm and kill even obedient people in the church, which is what he will be allowed to do during the future tribulation (Revelation 12:17). Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) power (Revelation 13:4) over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b), and he will persecute and physically overcome people in the church (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

daq said in post 43:

Revelation 10:8-11 ASV
8. And the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard it again speaking with me, and saying, Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel that standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9. And I went unto the angel, saying unto him that he should give me the little book. And he saith unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.
10. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and when I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter.
11. And they say unto me, Thou must prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.

John's prophecies in the book of Revelation were originally sent to the 1st century AD church (Revelation chapters 1-3), which probably expected all of his prophecies to be fulfilled shortly thereafter (shortly from the viewpoint of men, not God). But when Revelation's future prophecies (Revelation 4:1b) in chapters 6 to 22 didn't happen right away, as the centuries passed the church began to pay less and less attention to Revelation. It's only in modern times that a significant portion of the church has become interested again in Revelation and the future fulfillment of (the still never-fulfilled) chapters 6 to 22, so that in effect John is, through the enduring book of Revelation, "prophesying again" (Revelation 10:11), this time to the modern church, just as he prophesied originally to the early church.

Bible2 · Mar 29, 2014

Douggg said in post 44:

It's 1290 days and 1335 days. Not ten days.

That's right.

And Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

Douggg said in post 44:

The abomination of desolation has nothing to do with being in one's heart.

That's right.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

daq · Mar 29, 2014

Douggg said:
The abomination of desolation has nothing to do with being in one's heart.

As already stated once before; the opinions and teachings of you and your Rabbi's are in opposition to my Rabbi Yeshua. Please review the following post from this thread and the Word of Messiah concerning what is bdelugma-abomination in the sight of Elohim:

daq said:
You have your Rabbi's and I have mine. I told you what my Rabbi says and you do not believe him. You believe your Rabbi's and I believe my Rabboni-Master-Teacher Yeshua. In addition he says that the abomination takes place in the heart because the word bdelugma occurs only three times in the Gospel accounts and two of those occasions are the same instance meaning that Yeshua only speaks of abomination two times in all of the Gospel record:

Matthew 24:15 KJV
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand):

Mark 13:14 KJV
14. But when ye shall see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand), then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Original Strong's Ref. #946
Romanized bdelugma
Pronounced bdel'-oog-mah
from GSN0948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:
KJV--abomination.

The two companion statements above are the same occasion during the Olivet Discourse and therefore only count as one of the times Yeshua speaks of abomination. The only other place my Rabbi mentions it is therefore highly significant and reveals one of the critical reasons for the New Covenant teaching that the man is the holy temple of the Creator:

Luke 16:14-17 KJV
14. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] in the sight of God.
16. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

That which is highly esteemed among men is bdelugma-abomination in the sight of Elohim. The next place bdelugma-abomination appears is not until Revelation 17. In other words once again you are in direct opposition to the teachings of Rabbi Master Yeshua because he says the abomination occurs in the heart of the man. In addition to this the next chapter of Luke is where Yeshua states that the kingdom of Elohim does NOT come with visual-ocular observation because the kingdom of Elohim is WITHIN-INSIDE YOU.

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

In addition to this perhaps if you had little more circumspect respect for my Rabbi Master Yeshua you would realize that when Yudas Sakariy stepped forward to betray the Master with a kiss he did not even loose his own shoe or take off his sandals. Yudas stepped right up, onto holy ground, in wonton disrespect, without even removing his shoes, and betrayed the Son of man with a kiss; an abomination of desolation standing where he ought not: in the presence of the Malak of the Presence wherein is the holy place:

Matthew 3:11 KJV
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mark 1:6-7 KJV
6. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7. And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

Who and what passages do you suppose Yochanan is referencing with these "shoe latchet" statements? Why does he says this concerning the shoes and the shoelaces or latchets? It is clearly a reference to the following passages:

Exodus 3:2-5 KJV
2. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

Joshua 5:13-15 KJV
13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15. And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Understand what this means? The holy ground is wheresoever the Sar Tsaba YHWH stands. The Sar Tsaba YHWH, (Captain-Commander of the Host of YHWH) is Rabbi Master-Teacher Yeshua. Yudas Sakariy committed the first abomination of desolation when he came with a great multitude of soldiers like a flood, (Daniel 11:22) and stepped forward brazenly without respect or even removing his own shoes, and betrayed the Nagiyd-Commander of the Covenant with a kiss, (with many more antichrists to come after him and do the same). Go ask your own Rabbi's about that one and see what they tell you.

Douggg said:
It's 1290 days and 1335 days. Not ten days.

Yes there are indeed seventy shabuot-weeks in Ten Great Days, as already stated above previously, if you will receive and heed Torah. The only kind of shabuwa`-week we are commanded to count in each and every year is clearly and perfectly put forth to us in Torah:

Shemot ~ Exodus 34:22 KJV
22. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, [HSN#7620 shabuwa`-shabu`ot] of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Original Strong's Ref. #7620
Romanized shabuwa`
Pronounced shaw-boo'-ah
or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of HSN7650 as a denominative of HSN7651; literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):
KJV--seven, week.

BaMidbar ~ Numbers 28:26 KJV
26. Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the Lord, after your weeks [HSN#7620 shabuwa`-shabu`ot] be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work:

VaYikra ~ Leviticus 23:10-16 KJV
10. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11. And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12. And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
13. And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14. And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15. And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16. Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.

Devarim ~ Deuteronomy 16:6-11 KJV
6. But at the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the Passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7. And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
8. Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.
9. Seven weeks [HSN#7620 shabuwa`-shabu`ot] shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks [HSN#7620 shabuwa`-shabu`ot] from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
10. And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks [HSN#7620 shabuwa`-shabu`ot] unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
11. And thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the Lord thy God hath chosen to place his name there.

There are only seven shabuot-weeks in a year that we are commanded to count, (for those who will receive it). There are no other shabuot-weeks which we are commanded count or number in Torah. If there are seven shabout-weeks in one year then the are most definitely seventy weeks in Ten Great Days. However if one desires to learn of "days" then perhaps he should pay a visit to HaNavi Yechezqel; specifically where the two sticks are to be one new man in Messiah Yeshua, and where the 390 days of Yisrael, (for 390 years of the rebellion of beit Yisrael) and the forty days of Yehudah, (for 40 years of the rebellion of beit Yehudah) are 430 days for the years laid upon the sides of one man HaNavi Yechezqel, a kohen, son of Buzi. After consulting HaNavi in the passages referenced then the next passage, (Yechezqel 5) will clearly show the willing heart what to do. Divide your own great city into third parts and offer up the willing sacrifices from the heart; even as HaNavi Yechezqel did, and likewise as father Abraham also did, for surely thrice times 430 days are 1290 days and each third concerns the seed of a wild beast which must be purged out of the man. If indeed one truly believes the Word and Doctrine of the Master Yeshua then he will do these things walking according to the Spirit because the Master says: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad!"

Once upon a Covenant there was a humble man who faithfully trusted the Word of the Most High which came unto him in a vision. And because he faithfully trusted the Word of the Most High it was accounted unto him as uprightness. Yet the man had no seed and so petitioned the Most High as to how it was that he should know of a surety that the Promise unto him should be secured. So the Most High commanded him to offer up the treble of an `eglah-heifer, the treble of an `ez-goat, the treble of a ram, and a tor-gozal-pigeon of the nestlings. So the humble man of Elohim took one of each from his own and parted them asunder, (but the tsippor is the undivided) and the great city of the man was divided into third parts, and the cities of the goyim fell, and he walked with the Most High faithfully into the great day wherein the uprightness which was accounted unto him in the commencement was fulfilled in the latter times at Moriah.

daq · Mar 29, 2014

Bible2 said:
John's prophecies in the book of Revelation were originally sent to the 1st century AD church (Revelation chapters 1-3), which probably expected all of his prophecies to be fulfilled shortly thereafter (shortly from the viewpoint of men, not God). But when Revelation's future prophecies (Revelation 4:1b) in chapters 6 to 22 didn't happen right away, as the centuries passed the church began to pay less and less attention to Revelation. It's only in modern times that a significant portion of the church has become interested again in Revelation and the future fulfillment of (the still never-fulfilled) chapters 6 to 22, so that in effect John is, through the enduring book of Revelation, "prophesying again" (Revelation 10:11), this time to the modern church, just as he prophesied originally to the early church.

The strictly physical literalism of all your teachers has blinded their minds from perceiving the truth written in the Scripture. I strongly suggest you find new teachers. Do you expect me to believe that Yeshua needed to receive any more Revelation whatsoever AFTER he sat down at the right hand of the Father? Do you honestly believe there was anything he did not know AFTER her sat down at the right hand of the Father? Do you honestly expect me to believe you when you clearly suggest that Messiah received the Revelation from the Father some time AFTER his crucifixion and resurrection? These things can be proven from within the texts which we now have at our disposal.

Revelation 1:1-2
1. Apokalupsis Yeshua Christou, which was given him of Elohim, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. And he signified it sending it through his angelou unto his servant Yochanan:
2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Yeshua Christou, and of all things that he saw.

John 1:19-32 KJV
19. And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20. And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23. He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24. And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25. And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
26. John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27. He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
28. These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Yochanan the Immerser is he that bare record and testimony of the Word, and the Testimony of Yeshua, and all things which he saw. Yochanan the Immerser is he that was cast into the Patmos-Prison of Herod and then beheaded. Yeshua received the Revelation from the Father while he was in the wilderness; during his time of testing and trials, during the forty days before his ministry when and where he was with the wild beasts, as the Scripture says, and as has already been referenced here also in this thread:

Mark 1:11-15 KJV
11. And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12. And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; [GSN#2342 therion] and the angels ministered unto him.
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Original Strong's Ref. #2342
Romanized therion
Pronounced thay-ree'-on
diminutive from the same as GSN2339; a dangerous animal:
KJV--(venomous, wild) beast.

As also stated here in a previous post: Paulos already had the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua, as he himself states, even though the passage is not typically rendered or understood for what it truly says because of the prevailing modern, (western) hyper-dispensational mindset:

Galatians 1:11-12 KJV
11. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. [APOKALUPSIS YESHUA CHRISTOU ~ THE BOOK OF THE REVELATION OF YESHUA]

Galatians 1:12 Transliterated Unaccented
12. oude gar ego para anthropou parelabon auto outeedidachthen alla di Apokalupseos Iesou Christou.

Revelation 1:1 Transliterated Unaccented
1. Apokalupsis Iesou Christou hen edoken auto hoTheos deixai tois doulois autou ha dei genesthai entachei. Kai esemanen aposteilas dia tou angelou autouto doulo autou Ioanne,

If one understands the implications of the following passage then perhaps the same will understand that it is Yochanan Eliyahu-Elijah the Immerser, the greatest of all the prophets until Yeshua even according to the Testimony of Yeshua, who penned the Book of the Revelation Yeshua. However, unfortunately for the modern prophecy scholars and their western mindsets, what this means is that the entire foundation of modern dispensational thinking is overthrown because the things in the first half of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua were indeed about to come to pass as it is written and they did come to pass and were fulfilled at Golgotha in Messiah Yeshua:

Luke 7:19-24 KJV
19. And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
20. When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21. And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22. Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
24. And when the messengers [GSN#0032 angelon] of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

It appears that most herein have no clue as to with whom they deal when it comes to Moshiya Yeshua:

Yochanan mashiach Eliyahu-Elijah, having been hastily writing everything down, while in the Patmos-Prison of Herod during the Day Kuriake, (which Day commences in Lukas 4:17-21) calls unto him a certain "duo" of his talmidim and sends them to the Master, saying, "Art thou the one coming or for another should we watch?" And the andres-men having approached Yeshua say unto him: "Yochanan the Immerser hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou the one coming or for another should we watch?" In that hour many were cured of diseases, and plagues, and evil spirits; and on many that were blind, sight was bestowed:

And Yeshua answering says unto them; "Go your way, and tell Yochanan what things ye have seen and heard: [1] the blind see, [2] the lame walk, [3] the lepers are cleansed, [4] the deaf hear, [5] the dead are awakened, [6] the poor have good news proclaimed, [7] and blessed is the one whosoever is not offended in me!" Then the angelon of Yochanan departed and announced to him all these things, (and seven thunders uttered their voices).

ebedmelech · Mar 29, 2014

Once Christ died on the cross, He has fulfilled the Law for us. There is NO NEED whatsoever to adhere to the Jewish calendar for anything, as the Law is abolished.

We enter the New Covenant where Christ left us to observe two sacraments; baptism and the Lord's supper.

Did not Paul teach us this in Colossians 2:16-23:
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!
22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

There are elements of truth in*some* of daq's assertions but at the same time we all have to realize and reflect from the gospels HOW Yeshua chastized the Jews for adding to the law...for sure things that God never gave.

Shocker · Mar 29, 2014

ebedmelech said:
Once Christ died on the cross, He has fulfilled the Law for us. There is NO NEED whatsoever to adhere to the Jewish calendar for anything, as the Law is abolished.

We enter the New Covenant where Christ left us to observe two sacraments; baptism and the Lord's supper.

Did not Paul teach us this in Colossians 2:16-23:
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!
22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

There are elements of truth in*some* of daq's assertions but at the same time we all have to realize and reflect from the gospels HOW Yeshua chastized the Jews for adding to the law...for sure things that God never gave.

There are two commandments in Chirst.

Neither of which involve being baptized or observing Passover, two things which would qualify as "works" when all that is required for salvation is faith alone.

Baptism is of the spirit, just as circumcision is of the heart.

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Show me all the baptisms Christ performed in water..

Douggg · Mar 29, 2014

Originally Posted by Douggg
It's 1290 days and 1335 days. Not ten days.

Yes there are indeed seventy shabuot-weeks in Ten Great Days, as already stated above previously, if you will receive and heed Torah. The only kind of shabuwa`-week we are commanded to count in each and every year is clearly and perfectly put forth to us in Torah:

I wasn't addressing the 490 years. I was addressing your claim that the abomination of desolation is something in people's hearts.

The 1290 days and the 1335 days are from the time the abomination of desolation is setup. That indicates that the abomination of desolation has nothing to do with what is in people's hearts. It will be a literal physical image, statue. In the end times.

As already stated once before; the opinions and teachings of you and your Rabbi's are in opposition to my Rabbi Yeshua. Please review the following post from this thread and the Word of Messiah concerning what is bdelugma-abomination in the sight of Elohim

No, you are stating your own opinions, misrepresenting what Jesus taught. You did not quote the passage regarding the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. Please go back and read your post, you will see that I am right.

daq · Mar 29, 2014

ebedmelech said:
Once Christ died on the cross, He has fulfilled the Law for us. There is NO NEED whatsoever to adhere to the Jewish calendar for anything, as the Law is abolished.

We enter the New Covenant where Christ left us to observe two sacraments; baptism and the Lord's supper.

Did not Paul teach us this in Colossians 2:16-23:
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”
22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

There are elements of truth in*some* of daq's assertions but at the same time we all have to realize and reflect from the gospels HOW Yeshua chastized the Jews for adding to the law...for sure things that God never gave.

Shocker said:
There are two commandments in Chirst.

Neither of which involve being baptized or observing Passover, two things which would qualify as "works" when all that is required for salvation is faith alone.

Baptism is of the spirit, just as circumcision is of the heart.

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Show me all the baptisms Christ performed in water..

Now it is about immersions and baptism? Which of any of you here could honestly even venture to say that you have been immersed in the name of the Father? Yet this is the first portion of the great commission:

Mattityahu 28:18-20
18. And Yeshua came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and upon the earth.
19. Go ye therefore, and disciple all the nations, immersing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, even of the Holy Spirit:
20. Teaching them to observe-keep-guard all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you all the days unto the consummation of the age!

Which of you is immersed in the name of the Father when none of you appear to know his name? A name is much more than a spelling: a name is character, attributes, meaning, standards, morality or the lack thereof:

The Name of the Father is ALL OF TORAH AND TANAK
The Name of the Son is ALL OF THE BRIT CHADASHAH NEW COVENANT
The Name of the Spirit Holy is ALL OF THE TESTIMONY OF YESHUA
And the Spirit of the Revelation Prophecy is THE TESTIMONY OF YESHUA
And so far NONE OF YOU HAVE SHOWN THAT YOU HAVE ANY OF THESE! ^_^

Shocker · Mar 29, 2014

daq said:
Now it is about immersions and baptism? Which of any of you here could honestly even venture to say that you have been immersed in the name of the Father? Yet this is the first portion of the great commission:

Mattityahu 28:18-20
18. And Yeshua came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and upon the earth.
19. Go ye therefore, and disciple all the nations, immersing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, even of the Holy Spirit:
20. Teaching them to observe-keep-guard all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you all the days unto the consummation of the age!

Which of you is immersed in the name of the Father when none of you appear to know his name? A name is much more than a spelling: a name is character, attributes, meaning, standards, morality or the lack thereof:

The Name of the Father is ALL OF TORAH AND TANAK
The Name of the Son is ALL OF THE BRIT CHADASHAH NEW COVENANT
The Name of the Spirit Holy is ALL OF THE TESTIMONY OF YESHUA
And the Spirit of the Revelation Prophecy is THE TESTIMONY OF YESHUA
And so far NONE OF YOU HAVE SHOWN THAT YOU HAVE ANY OF THESE!

Baptism is of the Holy Ghost, given by Grace through faith.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Water is not needed.. Just as the thief who died on the cross, who was saved without a water baptism, but believed and had faith in Christ.

daq · Mar 29, 2014

Shocker said:
Baptism is of the Holy Ghost, given by Grace through faith.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Water is not needed.. Just as the thief who died on the cross, who was saved without a water baptism, but believed and had faith in Christ.

Where did I say anything about water? However, you quoted the correct passage when you quoted Luke 3:16 but do you fully understand the implications of what Yochanan the Immerser says there? Yeshua says we must be born of water and of the Spirit so your assertion that we do not need water is false from the start because apparently you do not understand what kind of water this concerns. Likewise, as you quoted, it is indeed Yochanan the Immerser who himself informs us that he is the one who immerses us with water. This water is the water of washing INTO the Word. Therefore you must have the immersion of Yochanan BEFORE you may receive the immersion by fire just as Cornelius who knew the immersion of Yochanan BEFORE the Messenger of the Most High appeared unto him when his alms, (which are good works) came up before the Most High:

Yochanan 3:5
5. Yeshua answered, Truly, truly, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You must be born of water and it does not concern "physical birth" because all men have already been physically born into the physical world. If one suggests such an answer the same is merely nullifying the words of the Master in his own heart and mind.

Acts 1:5 Transliterated Unaccented
5. hoti Ioannes men ebaptis en hudati, humeis de en Pneumati baptisthesesthe Hagio ou meta pollas tautas hemeras."^

Acts 1:5
5. BECAUSE Yochanan truly immersed [you] in water; you moreover in Spirit shall be immersed holy not after many days these.

Acts 10:1-4 KJV
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Petros then has the vision of his own and goes with the men to the house of Cornelius. When he arrives he begins to preach the word to them and the author Lukas distinctly relates to the reader that Petros mentions the fact that Cornelius and his household already new all about, (and thus had participated in) the immersion of Yochanan:

Acts 10:37-44 KJV
37. That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost [at his immersion under Yochanan] and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40. Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41. Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

When Petros recounts this event in the following chapter he does not fail to include the following critical information which apparently no one else seems to think worthy of mentioning: Petros then suddenly remembers exactly what was said to the talmidim in Acts 1:5 before the Master was taken up from them as they watched:

Acts 11:13-16 KJV
13. And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14. Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:16 TUA
16. Emnesthen de tou rematos tou Kuriou hos elegen, "Ioannes men ebaptisen hudati, humeis de baptisthesesthe en Pneumati Hagio."^

Acts 11:16
16. Moreover I remembered the word of the Master, how that he said, "Yochanan having immersed [you] in water; you moreover shall be immersed in Spirit Holy."

As previously stated the Revelation of Yeshua is penned by none other than Yochanan the Immerser while he was in the Patmos-Prison of Herod, (every island was moved in the great day of Golgotha with the Yeshayah 24 pole-shift and the hours of darkness which covered the earth in that day). The Revelation of Yeshua is indeed the immersion of Yochanan the Immerser; and that immersion must indeed come first, and everything in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua is critically linked to manifold Torah-Tanakh passages which comprise large portions of the Name of the Father.

Shocker · Mar 29, 2014

daq said:
Where did I say anything about water? However, you quoted the correct passage when you quoted Luke 3:16 but do you fully understand the implications of what Yochanan the Immerser says there? Yeshua says we must be born of water and of the Spirit so your assertion that we do not need water is false from the start because apparently you do not understand what kind of water this concerns. Likewise, as you quoted, it is indeed Yochanan the Immerser who himself informs us that he is the one who immerses us with water. This water is the water of washing INTO the Word. Therefore you must have the immersion of Yochanan BEFORE you may receive the immersion by fire just as Cornelius who knew the immersion of Yochanan BEFORE the Messenger of the Most High appeared unto him when his alms, (which are good works) came up before the Most High:

Yochanan 3:5
5. Yeshua answered, Truly, truly, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You must be born of water and it does not concern "physical birth" because all men have already been physically born into the physical world. If one suggests such an answer the same is merely nullifying the words of the Master in his own heart and mind.

Acts 1:5 Transliterated Unaccented
5. hoti Ioannes men ebaptis en hudati, humeis de en Pneumati baptisthesesthe Hagio ou meta pollas tautas hemeras."^

Acts 1:5
5. BECAUSE Yochanan truly immersed you in water; you moreover in Spirit shall be immersed holy not after many days these.

Acts 10:1-4 KJV
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Petros then has the vision of his own and goes with the men to the house of Cornelius. When he arrives he begins to preach the word to them and the author Lukas distinctly relates to the reader that Petros mentions the fact that Cornelius and his household already new all about, (and thus had participated in) the immersion of Yochanan:

Acts 10:37-44 KJV
37. That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost [at his immersion under Yochanan] and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40. Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41. Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

When Petros recounts this event in the following chapter he does not fail to include the following critical information which apparently no one else seems to think worthy of mentioning: Petros then suddenly remembers exactly what was said to the talmidim in Acts 1:5 before the Master was taken up from them as they watched:

Acts 11:13-16 KJV
13. And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14. Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:16 TUA
16. Emnesthen de tou rematos tou Kuriou hos elegen, "Ioannes men ebaptisen hudati, humeis de baptisthesesthe en Pneumati Hagio."^

Acts 11:16
16. Moreover I remembered the word of the Master, how that he said, "Yochanan having immersed you in water; you moreover shall be immersed in Spirit Holy."

As previously stated the Revelation of Yeshua is penned by none other than Yochanan the Immerser while he was in the Patmos-Prison of Herod, (every island was moved in the great day of Golgotha with the Yeshayah 24 pole-shift and the hours of darkness which covered the earth in that day). The Revelation of Yeshua is indeed the immersion of Yochanan the Immerser; and that immersion must indeed come first, and everything in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua is critically linked to manifold Torah-Tanakh passages which comprise large portions of the Name of the Father.

Sorry, Im a Christian.

Salvation is by Grace, through faith alone.

Not works, even a physical water baptism.

daq · Mar 29, 2014

Shocker said:
Sorry, Im a Christian.

Salvation is by Grace, through faith alone.

Not works, even a physical water baptism.

1) Sorry, but I said nothing about physical water immersion or baptism.
2) Sorry, I'm a talmid of Yeshua and I do not believe you.

Shocker · Mar 29, 2014

daq said:
1) Sorry, but I said nothing about physical water immersion or baptism.
2) Sorry, I'm a talmid of Yeshua and I do not believe you.

That's fine, you don't have to believe in me, as long as you accept that Christ Jesus is Lord and your faith in him is not compromised by works that come as a result of faith first and foremost.

daq · Mar 29, 2014

Shocker said:
That's fine, you don't have to believe in me, as long as you accept that Christ Jesus is Lord and your faith in him is not compromised by works that come as a result of faith first and foremost.

If you have no works showing your faithfulness it is not my faithfulness which is compromised or in question. I spoke of this kind of living water:

Ephesians 5:26 TUA
26. hina auten hagiase katharisas to loutro tou hudatos en remati,

"to loutro tou hudatos en remati" ~ "the washing of the water IN the word" . . .

The word is Living Water and that word is both Covenants: both the Name of the Father and the Name of the Son. One must be immersed in both of them if he or she will receive any true understanding in a true relationship with the Father and the Son. That is the immersion of water, (the Living Water of the Word) not physical water immersion. As for "good works" both Yeshua and all of the talmidim of Yeshua and authors of the new Covenant writings disagree with your theology:

Matthew 5:14-20 RSV
14. "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.
15. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
17. "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Shocker · Mar 29, 2014

daq said:
If you have no works showing your faithfulness it is not my faithfulness which is compromised or in question. I spoke of this kind of living water:

Ephesians 5:26 TUA
26. hina auten hagiase katharisas to loutro tou hudatos en remati,

"to loutro tou hudatos en remati" ~ "the washing of the water IN the word" . . .

The word is Living Water and that word is both Covenants: both the Name of the Father and the Name of the Son. One must be immersed in both of them if he or she will receive any true understanding in a true relationship with the Father and the Son. That is the immersion of water, (the Living Water of the Word) not physical water immersion. As for "good works" both Yeshua and all of the talmidim of Yeshua and authors of the new Covenant writings disagree with your theology:
Matthew 5:14-20 RSV
14. "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.
15. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
17. "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

To the Jews he is God the father. To the Christians, he is God the father as well, but God became flesh in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, is God manifest.

There is no difference between Jesus Christ and God.

You do realize that Jesus Christ is God, don't you?

daq · Mar 29, 2014

Shocker said:
To the Jews he is God the father. To the Christians, he is God the father as well, but God became flesh in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, is God manifest.

There is no difference between Jesus Christ and God.

You do realize that Jesus Christ is God, don't you?

Yochanan 10:34-36
34. Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are 'elohim?
35. If he called them 'elohim, unto whom the word of 'Elohim came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of 'Elohim?

Yeshua says that this Scripture cannot be broken.
In fact he says that this word from Psalm 82 is LAW.

Therefore:

Tehilim 82:6-7
6. I have said, Ye are 'elohim; and all of you are sons of `Elyown.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of hasariym-princes.

Has the Word of 'Elohim come to you? Do you honestly believe the Word of the Master Yeshua as you claim? If so then Yeshua says the Scripture from Psalm 82 cannot be broken: and if indeed the Word of 'Elohim has come to you then you also are an 'elohim but you shall die like a man and fall as one of the sariym-princes, (i.e. Daniel 10:20).

Now if you are indeed an 'elohim then why do you place your ideas above the one whom you claim to be God? This concerns the Ten Words:

Shemot ~ Exodus 20:3
3. Thou shalt have no other 'elohim before me.

Understand? If you are a little 'elohim and you are placing your own imaginative theology, (or even your teachers) over and above what the Word says then you are breaking one of the greatest commandments of all time.

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