Did Jesus die for OT Believers?

BigChrisfilm · Mar 25, 2014

I've been talking with a guy that says Jesus didn't have to die for OT believers because they were under the old covenant. He says that the sacrifices of animals was the atonement for sins. I personally believe Jesus had to atone for all believers and that animal sacrifice wasn't enough. What do you guys think?

Optimax · Mar 25, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
I've been talking with a guy that says Jesus didn't have to die for OT believers because they were under the old covenant. He says that the sacrifices of animals was the atonement for sins. I personally believe Jesus had to atone for all believers and that animal sacrifice wasn't enough. What do you guys think?

Yes, Jesus died for OT believers.

Hebrews says exactly what you did here;

I personally believe Jesus had to atone for all believers and that animal sacrifice wasn't enough.

BuffaloJack · Mar 25, 2014

Jesus died for OT people as well.

The reason their sacrifices meant anything was because it all looked forward to Christ's sacrifice.

Tangible · Mar 25, 2014

BuffaloJack said:
Jesus died for OT people as well.

The reason their sacrifices meant anything was because it all looked forward to Christ's sacrifice.

Boom.

Optimax · Mar 25, 2014

Those sacrifices of bulls and goats only covered their sin for a year.

Every year the same sacrifices had to be made.

Jesus died once.

His sacrifice did not just cover sin, it remitted or completely removed it.

bling · Mar 25, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
I've been talking with a guy that says Jesus didn't have to die for OT believers because they were under the old covenant. He says that the sacrifices of animals was the atonement for sins. I personally believe Jesus had to atone for all believers and that animal sacrifice wasn't enough. What do you guys think?

This is not that simple of a question.

Did God forgive the sins of a truly repentant individual during the OT times?

If a person is dead prior to Christ going to the cross how could it benefit him since nothing changes his fate?

We have to understand atonement to understand if it could impact dead people?

I personally do not agree with the 6 recorded popular theories of atonement, so by my understanding of atonement OT saved dead individuals would not have had atonement for intentional sins, but would have been forgiven by God.

Setyoufree · Mar 25, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
I've been talking with a guy that says Jesus didn't have to die for OT believers because they were under the old covenant. He says that the sacrifices of animals was the atonement for sins. I personally believe Jesus had to atone for all believers and that animal sacrifice wasn't enough. What do you guys think?

No one will get to heaven by the works of the law. That's the OC. Not all OT believers were under the OC. Abraham wasn't. Noah wasn't. David wasn't, etc....

There's only one way to heaven in the Old & New Test. - through Christ

cyberlizard · Mar 25, 2014

like other posters have said point them to the book of Hebrews which is explicit when it says that the blood of animals can never take away sins..

Steve

p.s. I can highly recommend the following podcast: The blood of bulls and goats (from the messianic jewish series on the book of hebrews)

yeshuasavedme · Mar 25, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
I've been talking with a guy that says Jesus didn't have to die for OT believers because they were under the old covenant. He says that the sacrifices of animals was the atonement for sins. I personally believe Jesus had to atone for all believers and that animal sacrifice wasn't enough. What do you guys think?

Yes.
The promise is in Genesis 3:15.
The day God was incarnated in second Man human being flesh is the day from which all mankind is blessed, both backwards and forwards: that is in Haggai 2 [the 24th day of the ninth month is that day and which later became the eve of Chanukah, making his birth on 1st day of Tabernacles and circumcision on that "Great Day, the Eighth Day of New Beginnings].

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
I've been talking with a guy that says Jesus didn't have to die for OT believers because they were under the old covenant. He says that the sacrifices of animals was the atonement for sins. I personally believe Jesus had to atone for all believers and that animal sacrifice wasn't enough. What do you guys think?

Gal 1:6-11 There is only ONE Gospel

Gal 3:7-8 "The Gospel was preached to ABRAHAM".

Heb 4:1-2 "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also".

John 3:16 "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave".

John 3 the pre-cross teaching of the Gospel was "you must be born again".

The New Covenant is the Gospel that offers forgiveness of sins - and you can read it in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

Hebrews 11 -

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

football5680 · Mar 25, 2014

The Old Testament believers accepted Jesus even though they did not know him and he came after them. The sacrifice of Jesus was foreshadowed in Genesis so the plan was in place before everybody. Jesus coming was not a new plan so everybody throughout history if they believed in the true God was saved by Jesus.

BigChrisfilm · Mar 25, 2014

Ok, thanks for the comments guys. First I want to ask do you think this is a heresy and in need of being corrected? 2nd I'm gonna try and play devil's advocate for a few posts so I can see how you guys respond correctly to some of the things he's said.

BigChrisfilm · Mar 25, 2014

Didn't the blood of animals atone for the sins of the Old Testament believers?

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 26, 2014

cyberlizard said:
like other posters have said point them to the book of Hebrews which is explicit when it says that the blood of animals can never take away sins..

Steve

p.s. I can highly recommend the following podcast: The blood of bulls and goats (from the messianic jewish series on the book of hebrews)

Thks for that link. Here is another:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Ashes of a Red Heifer Part 1

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ASHES OF AN HEIFER sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God" (Heb. 9:13-14).

Numbers 19 is a most unusual chapter in the Old Testament.
All the offerings in the Bible are bullocks and rams, but here there is an exception - a heifer, a female cow who has never given birth. All the offerings in the Old Testament are slaughtered and offered to God, but this offering of the red heifer, though killed and burned, is very different from the rest. While all others are offered to God to meet current claims - that is, the sin-offering, the burnt offering, or the peace offering according to the need of the day - the red heifer alone was not for the present need. It was offered to meet future needs. The ordinance of the red heifer stands alone.
While other sacrifices are often brought before us, this one is recorded in no other part of Israel's history...........

.

BobRyan · Mar 26, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
Didn't the blood of animals atone for the sins of the Old Testament believers?

Animal blood never atoned for sins. Heb 10:1-4.

Romans 4 tells us that God counts those things that are not as though they were - therefore Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world".

one gospel - - just one and it was preached to Abraham - it was given to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3.

just one Gospel.

"God so Loved the WORLD that He gave" --

And this list of texts given here is also in support of that solution.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7812394/#post65263154

it appears that all are in agreement on these points so far.

in Christ,

Bob

bling · Mar 26, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
Didn't the blood of animals atone for the sins of the Old Testament believers?

You need to read Lev. 5, because there we find not only animals being sacrificed and atoning for unintentional sins but a bag of flour could be used by poor people, so blood was not needed for the sacrifice itself. Intentional sins under the OT could not be atoned for but could be forgiven.

simonthezealot · Mar 26, 2014

bling said:
This is not that simple of a question.

Did God forgive the sins of a truly repentant individual during the OT times?

Not until the cross, He withheld punishment, because of His great forebearance....
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

BigChrisfilm · Mar 26, 2014

Ok so if the blood of animals in the OT didn't atone for sins, what was the OT Covenant?

christianmomof3 · Mar 26, 2014

BigChrisfilm said:
Didn't the blood of animals atone for the sins of the Old Testament believers?

No. There were different sacrifices for different sins and in reality, the Lord wanted people to repent and turn to Him rather than sacrifice.

bling said:
You need to read Lev. 5, because there we find not only animals being sacrificed and atoning for unintentional sins but a bag of flour could be used by poor people, so blood was not needed for the sacrifice itself. Intentional sins under the OT could not be atoned for but could be forgiven.

yep

BigChrisfilm said:
Ok so if the blood of animals in the OT didn't atone for sins, what was the OT Covenant?

In the OT, there was not a single "covenant" like the Christian concept of a way to atone for sins. There were many covenants or agreements between God and Israel about a variety of issues. One is the promise of God to Abraham to make him the father of a great nation. Another is when God gave the law to Israel. Neither of those were mainly about atoning for sins.

bling · Mar 26, 2014

simonthezealot said:
Not until the cross, He withheld punishment, because of His great forebearance....
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

First off in Lev. 5 it says God will forgive their unintentional sins and it is not talking about sometime in the distant future. In the KJV it shall be forgiven him.

Now Ro. 3: 25

NIV

25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

And the RSV

25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show Gods righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

In Romans 3 there is a contrast between those before the cross and after the cross.

The KJV uses Victorian English that does not translate well for us today.

Did Jesus die for OT Believers?

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