No longer under the Law...

maco

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The Law was given to point out sin and sin brings condemnation and death.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


The Law will always point out sin and sin will always bring condemnation, that's what sin does. But we are no longer under that old way of relating to God. We are now under grace and the words of Jesus now become our Law.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

The teachings of Jesus establish principles for living godly. They interpret the Law and lead us into the spirit or purpose of the Law, which is to love God and love neighbor.

Matthew 22:35-40 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

If we live through the Old Covenant way of relating to God it will lead to bondage and struggle.


Galatians 4:21-31 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the free woman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, you who do not bear! Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband.” Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.” So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

We are not to live by Old Covenant principles of relating to God, but rather, we are to live by the teachings of Jesus and understand God's acceptance of us is not based on how well we keep the Law, but rather, our acceptance is based on our heart orientation to Jesus and what He did for us.


Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


As one who is in Christ we are not to view our obedience as meritorious in nature, but rather, we are to view our obedience as an expression of our love for God. The moment we begin to view our obedience as meritorious we fall from grace and put ourselves under the Law or the old way of relating to God.

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

We don't obey God to earn a right standing with Him, we obey God because we love Him and value what He values because what God values is good and right.


When we truly begin to grow in our understanding of all this we will wake up one day and realize that God has written His Law in our heart and mind and through love we will find ourselves keeping the commandments because they define godly love.

Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
 
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OldStudent

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For many Christian traditions justification IS the gospel. Often a key part of this gospel is that the law has been rendered null and void as it has no place in justification. It seems that even Satan is pleased with a "gospel" of justification. He has been lawless from the point iniquity was found in him. Justification is fine but don't let it change or transform the current trend of life.

Justification is crucial because we have a record - a record of sin and guilt that must be handled and cleared. Jesus' death makes that work. That gives us a clear starting (start over) point. Then what? That doesn't mean that we go on in our life of sin, "...but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" Romans 12:2. Justification clears the ground so God can write His law on our hearts. The law defines WHY we need justification. Having done that we naturally live in conformity to the law. Besides the 10 commandments, we live by faith (Romans 14:23), we show no favoritism based on external values (James 2:9), when we see good that needs to be done we do it (James 4:17)... Jesus' life shows how that's done. That is some transformation!

What is meant by being no longer under the law means under its condemnation. I get a traffic ticket because I broke the law. When I pay the fine or do the time the law doesn't go away it's conviction of guilt is (to a degree) satified. The law remains but I become free of its condemnation that requires loss of freedom.

The "Old Covenant" is not the law - it's "all the Lord has said we will do and be obedient" Exodus 24:7. History and experiance show we can't do that.

There are two aspects of the New Covenant:
1) God writes His law on our hearts. It is a change of how it is applied (how it gets fulfilled) - not of content.
2) It is a change of administration. The Levitial priesthood (whose role was illustrative and prophetic of Jesus and operated in the eartly tabernacle) gave way Jesus as our High Priest operating in the heavenly tabernacle handling for real our cleansing and our renewal.

I'm not sure you wanted to go there but it's kind of a package deal. Also this is kind of a set of summary statements that can be fleshed out a bit if there is interest. In part, it seems to restate some of what you were saying but from a different angle.
 
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maco

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For many Christian traditions justification IS the gospel. Often a key part of this gospel is that the law has been rendered null and void as it has no place in justification. It seems that even Satan is pleased with a "gospel" of justification. He has been lawless from the point iniquity was found in him. Justification is fine but don't let it change or transform the current trend of life.

Justification is crucial because we have a record - a record of sin and guilt that must be handled and cleared. Jesus' death makes that work. That gives us a clear starting (start over) point. Then what? That doesn't mean that we go on in our life of sin, "...but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" Romans 12:2. Justification clears the ground so God can write His law on our hearts. The law defines WHY we need justification. Having done that we naturally live in conformity to the law. Besides the 10 commandments, we live by faith (Romans 14:23), we show no favoritism based on external values (James 2:9), when we see good that needs to be done we do it (James 4:17)... Jesus' life shows how that's done. That is some transformation!

What is meant by being no longer under the law means under its condemnation. I get a traffic ticket because I broke the law. When I pay the fine or do the time the law doesn't go away it's conviction of guilt is (to a degree) satified. The law remains but I become free of its condemnation that requires loss of freedom.

The "Old Covenant" is not the law - it's "all the Lord has said we will do and be obedient" Exodus 24:7. History and experiance show we can't do that.

There are two aspects of the New Covenant:
1) God writes His law on our hearts. It is a change of how it is applied (how it gets fulfilled) - not of content.
2) It is a change of administration. The Levitial priesthood (whose role was illustrative and prophetic of Jesus and operated in the eartly tabernacle) gave way Jesus as our High Priest operating in the heavenly tabernacle handling for real our cleansing and our renewal.

I'm not sure you wanted to go there but it's kind of a package deal. Also this is kind of a set of summary statements that can be fleshed out a bit if there is interest. In part, it seems to restate some of what you were saying but from a different angle.

To me the Law for us is the teachings of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus move us from the letter of the law, which inspires people to view the Sabbath as being more important than the needs of people and places people in bandage. Jesus taught us to place needs above ritualistic keeping of the Sabbath as found in the letter of the law.
 
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OldStudent

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To me the Law for us is the teachings of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus move us from the letter of the law, which inspires people to view the Sabbath as being more important than the needs of people and places people in bandage. Jesus taught us to place needs above ritualistic keeping of the Sabbath as found in the letter of the law.

In part, I think I understand what you are saying. I was raised as a fine SDA Pharisee under an awesome set of rules. Add Ellen White to the mix of the old time Pharisee and the soup can get really thick. In recent years I have been transitioning from doctrinal to relational theology. A key purpose of doctrine is to inform and shape relationships. Let me suggest that Jesus made the law and its application even more stringent. Consider the implications of His "You have heard it said..., But I say to you..." statements (Matt 5:21, <). These statements express a crucial aspect of how to read and apply the law. Jesus drives us to face the impossibility of the intent of the law. It implies and relies totally on God writing His law, His nature, on our hearts. There's no way we can do it otherwise.

Also don't overlook Jesus' stance in regard to the Sabbath. Yes, He was quite pointed in humanizing the Sabbath. But of all the clauses in the 10C law this is the one He took the greatest pains to bring to discussion. This He put His ministry at risk and took death threats for. After all, this is the one that was really the crown of creation. Embodied in it is assurance of time to fulfill the purpose of creation - fellowship in love. Also, much of "the letter of the law" were not God's letters but man's ammendments.

Don't forget that the record of the life and teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels is incomplete: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" John 16:12. "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book..." John 20:31. What has been written, however, provides a pervasive environment through which to understand the rest.
 
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LarryP2

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Adventists really are "Pharisees."

Any argument that Christians must keep any part of the Mosaic Law is just dishonest about the structure and implementation of the Old Testament law, and indicates a severe ignorance about its applications. There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important, and all of them must be kept. Or none of them. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic Law between "ritualistic" and "moral" law. Sabbattarian Christians conjure up that self-serving distinction purely out of convenience. They have picked a few of the 613 Commandments seemingly at random, based on the ones that happen to tickle their fancy. That is willfully dishonest to the intent of the Law.

If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the "ten commandments" as anything particularly unique or special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments. They are merely ten among many other laws of equal importance.

Out of the mandatory 613 Mosaic laws, Sabbattarians pick and choose a tiny handful that happily coincide with their overall goals of preening self-righteousness over other Christians. They flatter themselves all too easily. If you understand the way the Mosaic law works, all they have merely done is make themselves looks bizarre and foolish. The Apostles repeatedly denounced such behavior as "Judaizing." The Apostles were experts on the Mosaic Law. Sabbattarians are not.

For Christians, Colossians 2:16-17 means what it says.

For Christians, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem emphatically means what it says: Gentile Christians shall not be bound by the Mosaic law.

Any argument that the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation indicates an profound ignorance of the original Hebrew that both Genesis and Exodus were written in. The writer of the book of Genesis took great pains to make it clear that the Sabbath did not begin at the 7th day of Creation. Hebrew scholars have made that point absolutely clear. The Sabbath commandment was not given to the Children of Israel until at least a month after their delivery from Egyptian slavery. Meanwhile, they would have unintentionally broken the Sabbath at least four times during their crossing of the Sinai. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Sinai. NONE!

Christians began worshiping on Sunday no later than 1 week after the Resurrection. Christ then Ascended on a Sunday. The Day of Pentecost, the Church's Birthday was on a Sunday. It would have been BIZARRE if the early Christians had continued to keep the Sabbath, given the impact those three events clearly would have had on them. Why were all the early Christians in one place on a Sunday when the Day of Pentecost took place? Because they had started doing so in honor of the Resurrection. By the Day of Pentecost, it was an entrenched Christian custom already.

The SDA argument that Constantine unilaterally destroyed the Sabbath has been forcibly disproven by their own Sabbath Expert, Samuelle Bachiochi.

The argument for keeping just one pet commandment out of the 613 simply denigrates the obvious meaning of the crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Day of Pentecost. It is a Salvation by Works theory of "Partial Atonement." It is an argument that one must keep the entirety of the Mosaic Law, because Christ's sacrifice is not enough. Fortunately for Christians, even Christians who keep the Sabbath aren't even CLOSE to meeting that burden.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and the rest of the laws and have an ounce of integrity, you must go through the full-scale conversion process to Judaism that is mandatory. It is extremely highly-unlikely any Sabbattarian Christian would do that. For an unconverted Gentile to keep the Sabbath is such a serious offense against God and a defilement against the Sabbath, an observant Jew is required the impose the Death Penalty!.

Christians who keep the Sabbath are as bizarre as if they suddenly developed a yen to sacrifice some animals in their backyard temple. Or kept the Feast of the New Moons.
 
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davidbrainerd

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I don't see why people get their hair all in a dander over the Sabbath. I doubt any Christian when they say "keep the Sabbath" means anything like what the Jews mean. To the Jews, keeping the Sabbath means you can't drive, can't walk futher than a certain distance, can't turn on the lights, can't carry any object to a place not connected to your house by a special ritual covering; you have to eat certain foods prepared in a certain way, light certain candles right before nightfall, have to wash your hands a certain ritual way, have to go to Synagogue (correction, walk to Synagogue) where the service is mandated to last at least THREE HOURS because they say one must prepare for an hour before prayer, pray for an hour, and then come down from the state of prayer for an hour, and so on, and so on. But when a Christian says "keep the Sabbath" all they mean is "don't go to work." That's fine with me. I don't want to go to work on Saturday or Sunday!!!!!
 
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davidbrainerd

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If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the "ten commandments" as anything particularly unique or special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments. They are merely ten among many other laws of equal importance.

You clearly don't know ANY rabbis, and have never so much as read a book written by a rabbi, or watched a youtube video of a rabbi.

To the Jews, as they believe now, all the commandments are optional. That is, they believe that if you keep them, you earn merit from keeping them, but if you don't, there is no punishment. They teach that each commandment is an opportunity to earn points with God, if you will keep it. But you never lose points in their system.

Also, they would point out rather quickly that not all the 613 commandments apply to everyone. Most of them apply only to the priests. Many apply only to men, or women, or slaves, or slave-owners. It is a total oversimplification to say "there are 613 laws" as if even under the Old Testament all 613 ever applied to any one person.
 
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davidbrainerd

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Now, as I somewhat hinted at above, if some Christians didn't keep the Sabbath in some sense, none of us would get Saturday off. I like having both Saturday and Sunday off. So let them keep keeping it. And if we who keep Sunday didn't keep Sunday, you Sabbatarians wouldn't get Sunday off! So let us keep keeping it. Now if only we could convince a whole lot of Christians to keep Friday, maybe we could get an extra day off.
 
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LarryP2

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"You clearly don't know ANY rabbis, and have never so much as read a book written by a rabbi, or watched a youtube video of a rabbi."

Actually, what you said is absolutely, ridiculously false. I will explain:

I have been studying the Babylonian Talmud, the Mishna and about 400 years of Responsa readings. I will now help you dispel your profound ignorance of how Judaism looks at its own covenent:

But what about the so-called "Ten Commandments," the words recorded in Exodus 20, the words that the Creator Himself wrote on the two stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 31:18), which Moses smashed upon seeing the idolatry of the golden calf (Ex. 32:19)? In the Torah, these words are never referred to as the Ten Commandments. In the Torah, they are called Aseret ha-D'varim (Ex. 34:28, Deut. 4:13 and Deut. 10:4). In rabbinical texts, they are referred to as Aseret ha-Dibrot. The words d'varim and dibrot come from the Hebrew root Dalet-Beit-Reish, meaning word, speak or thing; thus, the phrase is accurately translated as the Ten Sayings, the Ten Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten Things, but not as the Ten Commandments, which would be Aseret ha-Mitzvot.

First and foremost, Judaism NEVER calls them the "Ten Commandments." What follows are the basic scheme (I have kept this very simple, since you obviously have no background whatsoever for your assertions):

"The Aseret ha-Dibrot are not understood as individual mitzvot; rather, they are categories or classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613 mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on Shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the Sabbath day and keeping it holy. The mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur fits into that category somewhat less obviously: all holidays are in some sense a Sabbath, and the category encompasses any mitzvah related to sacred time. The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person's life is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder. It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to embarrass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood."
Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"
Try to get your mind around these concepts. What I have pasted is a very simple explanation that you should be able to comprehend.
 
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davidbrainerd

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If you really were studying these things so much you would know that the rabbis in this very material reference a debate on whether God inspired all of the Law or only the 10 Commandments. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel wrote a rather lengthy book on this debate in the rabbinic sources, called Heavenly Torah: As Refracted through the Generations. Its basically a collection of citations of the rabbinic documents on this issue.

You're really making too much of the pointless distinction between Ten Words and Ten Commandments. And besides that you haven't addressed the point that modern Judaism views the commandments (not just the ten, but all of them) only as a positive system, that is, that if you keep them you earn points and if you break them you don't lose points. I don't know if you'll find that written in the Talmud or not, but that's what the modern Jews teach in any case.
 
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Zetlander

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To say we are not under law, is to do away with the OT completely. God said that his 'law', actually guide lines and commandments, were for israel and allwhom worship Him , forever. Jesus said that he only 'said' what the Father told him to say, subsequently he, jesus did not give us any new commandments only reiterated what the Father had already given us thru moses and the prophets. Yes, some of the 'laws' pertaining to sacrifice and temple and priests and kings were made null and void by His final sacrifice, but the moral, community, health laws are still applicable and make sense to be so as well, for believers. Our 'forefathers' of christianity have falsely for their own reasons made the law obsolete, yet thru out the NT we are told that those who teach torah are held in high esteem. That the 'lawless' will not enter the kingdom of heaven. That those who love the Father obey His commandments etc etc What we have done away w ith is what the Father has given us to help us continue to walk in His ways to maintain righteousness and be holy becuase He is Holy. To ignore it is a great mistake and could cost us our salvation. 'But Lord we healed and cast out demons in your name, 'Be gone from me you lawless people, I never knew you"&#8230;he is talking to those who thought they were saved believers ! I am afraid today that christianity thru default has moved away of course to the one whom they claim to worship. We are no longer keeping His commandments, changed the seasons, the holidays ordained by Him, changed his day of worship from 7th to 1st. The list goes on. Jesus said he came to fullfill the law, not do away with it. He showed us how to in his daily life and walk. WWJD ? He spoke out against the law, yes, but that was the man made law added to what God gave us, the law they added to it which put the people in bondage. The law shows us what sin is, sin is the breaking of the law. No law means there is no sin&#8230;but sin is here with us daily in the world and our lives. Christianese nonsense , hypercritical double talk thaty makes no sense. Back to basics. WWJD, he was commandment keeping, kosher, sabbeth observant jew, now there is no jew or gentile, just one body, whom should be obedient to God.
 
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PureTruth7

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If the Law can be done away with or made null, then Jesus NEVER had to die for us! Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). So if the 10 commandments, or God's Law, is done away with, then there is no sin, meaning Jesus then never had to die for us, because there is no more sin to save us from. But the truth is that is not so, JESUS taught that we are to obey God's law,
Matthew 5:17-19. "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
."

Look at the ground, is it still there? Look at the sky, is the sky still there? So is the 10 commandments.
A lot more information plus Scripture regarding this can be found at...
remnantofgod.org/The-Law.htm#6
 
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fozzy

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The arguments for and against the ten commandments are never ending and have been rehashed to ad nauseam. New covenant Christians are no longer bound by the Law and the best argument for this has already been mentioned by maco and brian. The Law teaches people to work their way to heaven or to earn points with God which is in opposition to the unmerited grace of the new covenant. Some seem to think that we can be under law and grace at the same time but this is an impossibility. The law rewards us based on our performance and grace is given because of Christ's perfect righteousness. If we even for a second believe that we can do anything to deserve God's grace we will immediately lose it. God will never share his glory with anyone let alone sinful human beings. All our righteousness is as filthy rags to a just and holy God.

'So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.' Luke 17:10

'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: &#65279;Not of works, lest any man should boast.' Eph. 2:8,9
 
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Zetlander

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First - New Covenant christians. Cant have a new covenant when you never had an old one. So we are grafted into israel one body neither jew nor gentile. Secondly the law doesnt teach people to work their way to heave and get points, thats pathetic. Its Gods guidelines and instructions to walk righteously and be holy for He is. Being 'under law' is a christianise put down for anyone who is Torah observant and has been for years to cover up their disobedience of not obeying all the commandments only those they choose that suit them. Grace is not a NT jesus brought about thing, but has been their since adam and eve. The Grace replaces the law is a false gospel of salvation. Grace is offorded to one when He is obedient to His God by obeying His commandments, saying jesus did away with the law replaced it by grace is scriptural incorrect to a degree. Saved by grace is only part of the formula. Blessed are they who do His (YHWH's) Commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life and may enter through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:14)
 
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Zetlander

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Most insist they "don't have to keep the Commandments" because "Jesus Christ" kept them perfectly for them. Herein is the "Mystery of Iniquity" revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-15). The lawless one, also known as anti-Mashiyach, heads the charge against keeping the Commandments in the name of the false Mashiyach. We can therefore clearly determine that this is the "other Jesus" Paul spoke of, who has inspired many souls into disobedience. We must be very careful about any false parallel, since Rav Shaul says that if anyone else, including a heavenly messenger, teaches a Good News other than the original one, that person is cursed! (Galatians 1:9-10).

Those who don't obey the Commandments don't want you obeying them either. Some "Christians" even teach that if you keep the Commandments you will go to hell because you've fallen from "Grace." The truth is that Grace is the gift of the Ruach haKodesh that empowers us to keep the Commandments of YHWH by Faith! Nearly everyone who keeps the Commandments of YHWH and observes Torah according to Mashiyach will testify that it is a miracle to be spiritually sustained and keep the Commandments in a world of people who've come to hate them for doing so.

In order to truly please our Creator, we must place our trust in Mashiyach Y'shua who teaches: "If you desire to enter into life, keep the Commandments." On this same theme Rav Shaul teaches: "When we were dead in our sins, gave us life with the Mashiyach and rescued us by His grace...." Dead in our sins means that we stop breaking the Commandments. The word rescued here literally means "saved." A variant of this word is what we call "Savior" in English. In Aramaic the concept of a savior is literally: "Giver of life." (excuse terminology walk in many circles).
 
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fozzy

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First - New Covenant christians. Cant have a new covenant when you never had an old one. So we are grafted into israel one body neither jew nor gentile. Secondly the law doesnt teach people to work their way to heave and get points, thats pathetic. Its Gods guidelines and instructions to walk righteously and be holy for He is. Being 'under law' is a christianise put down for anyone who is Torah observant and has been for years to cover up their disobedience of not obeying all the commandments only those they choose that suit them. Grace is not a NT jesus brought about thing, but has been their since adam and eve. The Grace replaces the law is a false gospel of salvation. Grace is offorded to one when He is obedient to His God by obeying His commandments, saying jesus did away with the law replaced it by grace is scriptural incorrect to a degree. Saved by grace is only part of the formula. Blessed are they who do His (YHWH's) Commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life and may enter through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:14)

First off - Dispensationalism is a doctrine of devils and we are never grafted into Israel. This is absurd just from face value. The branches that were broken off were natural Israel so they don't get grafted into natural Israel seeing the root and tree supports them. I have heard many interpretations for the olive tree from the Abrahamic covenant to Jesus to the Holy Spirit but never Israel which was always supported by something bigger than themselves. I tend to go with the Abrahamic covenant which the natural branches could have been broken off of and the wild branches could have been grafted into. '&#65279;And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:29

Secondly, a new covenant commandment keeper is someone who has the faith of Jesus and the love of God. There are only two commandments in the new covenant which are faith and love and these comprise the 'whole duty' of the Christian. I no longer have to go back and make a pathetic attempt at will worship or self worship with the other 613 carnal commandments. Torah observant is a nice way of saying that you reject Jesus and his spotless righteousness and are trying to climb up to heaven some other way. John spoke of commandment keeping more than any of the apostles and his understanding was always belief in Christ and unselfish love for our brother. Those who stubbornly persist in keeping the laws of Moses have fallen from grace and are dead branches that are filled with unbelief.
 
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fozzy

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Those who don't obey the Commandments don't want you obeying them either. Some "Christians" even teach that if you keep the Commandments you will go to hell because you've fallen from "Grace."

You have fallen from grace!!! The only time this phrase was used in the bible meant exactly that.

&#65279;Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4

The bible rebukes all law keepers. I don't even have to say anything but I will because they are so deceived and their message is poison.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev. 14:8

Babylon the great has filled the world with her law-gospel and is fallen from grace. Do a word study. Jerusalem is the great harlot Babylon and is the mother of the old covenant. Every Christian denomination has a sick fascination with Israel and the old covenant. Some more than others. We need to come out before it's too late.
 
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Zetlander

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Are you lot real, the bible rebukes law keepers ! If that is the case explain why He said Math 5:17 'Do not thnk that I came to abolish the Law or the prophets, I did NOT come to abolish but to fullfill'&#8230;.since when does fullfill meand done away with ? &#8230;.Rom: 3:31 - Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! on the country we establish the law', If we establish the law then we cant at the same time insist its been abolished. Also 1john3 says sin is lawlessness - which means that the 'law' cound not have been abolished on the cross!&#8230;..also mathew 7:21-23 discusses how YHWH will reject the workers of lawlessness' You need to ask yourselves who are the 'workers of lawlessness'? Answer those who dont conform to God's laws!&#8230;&#8230;.also to the person who said that I am espousing dispensationalism&#8230;no idea what that is, but answer me this - if we are not grafted into israel then we can not have a 'new convenant', as we (christian/gentiles) didnt have an old one in the first place ! Hebrews :8:10 But this is the convenant which I will give to the family of the house of Israel after those days, says Master YHWH. I will put my Torah in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts and Math:15:24 I was sent only to the house of Israel. As for Jerusalem being the great harlot, thats way off and stinks of old christian antisemitisim. You need to do some proper bible study on that one. Jesus was a jew, law abiding , sabath keeping and only ate what God said man could eat as food. Would love to know what scripute rebukes all law keepers, Dont forget, Gods commandments are not law, law is man made, when jesus spoke out against the law, its wasnt Gods law but mans added to Gods original commandments , those man made laws which put people into bondage hence jesus constantly jibing the pharasees. As For Sick facination with israel and the old convenatn, I would say unto you, Unless you are facinated in israel and the old convent of which the new is a continuation of , then you are not a true born again believer !
 
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fozzy

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Are you lot real, the bible rebukes law keepers ! If that is the case explain why He said Math 5:17 'Do not thnk that I came to abolish the Law or the prophets, I did NOT come to abolish but to fullfill'….since when does fullfill meand done away with ?!


Jesus was speaking to Torah observant Jews prior to the cross when this statement was made. Most seem to forget that his entire ministry was still under the old covenant prior to the cross. After the cross when everything concerning the law was fulfilled there was a much different message that went out. Most cite Paul's epistles after the cross which is fine but I like to cite Jesus's own words. Jesus gave council to the seven churches of Revelation and there is not one mention of any law keeping and Jews and synagogues are used in the most derogatory terms. He does focus a lot on works but this is to be expected for all Christians will have works of faith and love because we will be judged by our works in the final judgment.
 
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