If there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, are you prepared to go through the Tribulation???

shturt678s · Mar 18, 2014

Matt.24:31 = Jn.5:28, 29 all, everyone, ie, the good and the bad raise for the final public judment at the end of time without "1" or "2" raptures before this time. :idea:

btw heard of a "3" rapture only recently, ie, only "1" in light of IThess.4:14-17.

Old Jack

Echolipse · Mar 18, 2014

iamlamad said:
It is NOT an if! It is written! If you CHOOSE (against His will) to be left behind, certainly God will honor that and you WILL be left behind.

But is that WISE? You would certainly be "overcome." It is written.

Lamad

Anyone else want to know where this is written?

rollinTHUNDER · Mar 18, 2014

Bible2 said:
The ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

Why must you re-name and/or try to re-define these terms? Most people call this conversion or getting saved.

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance believers will choose to do that instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

There is no such thing as "ultimate salvation," but there are different rewards after we reach the end of our journey when Christ appears. There is no loss of salvation and the two scriptures you cited above are parts of two parables. Parables are similarities and/or likenesses that provide clues for understanding mysteries or hidden truths, but we should never take them in a literal sense. They are like little stories to help us understand something else.

Also, in the Bible itself the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal bodies into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16), just like the immortal physical body he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Now you are re-defining this so-called "ultimate salvation" yet again. But there is a difference between us waiting for the redemption of our bodies, and the glorified bodies saints will have when they return to reign with Christ. Also, two classes of believers will receive glorified bodies, not just your "ultimate salvation" believers. Those who are ready when the son of man appears will be raptured and return with glorified bodies, but so will the martyrs who refuse the mark return in glorified bodies. These glorified bodies have nothing to do with salvation, but with the rewarding of His saints and faithful servants. They will not be seen until after the Lord rewards them.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Everyone who receives Christ will be saved, but not all believers will receive the ultimate or highest reward. The problem is that you only want to recognize these super-saints and leave no room for the martyrs who will refuse the mark of the beast, or the sheep who remain in their mortal bodies because they fall away and all of their works (rewards) are burned up.

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

What you fail to realize is that Matthew 24 & 25 were given to answer his disciples question.

Matthew 24:3
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

His disciples were asking him for the sign of His coming, and the end of the age. Not the end of the next age or the millennial age, but the same age of grace that we are still living in today. And if you still don't understand, maybe this passage will help you.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Scripture says that judgment begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet.4:17), and that's what we see in the passage above. He will reward His saints and servants before unleashing His wrath. Christ concluded His answer with the sign of the end of the age (sheep and goats judgment). This is where He returns to judge the nations, separating the goats from the sheep. The sheep will be protected, but the goats are those that destroy the earth and will be cast into the fire, probably from nuclear war at Armageddon. This is the end of the age and the sheep will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies.

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

Again, the great white throne is not the end of this current age. Also, the passage I posted above reveals that the goats who are alive will also be judged and killed right after the saints are rewarded. The beast, false prophet and everyone who takes the mark of the beast will be killed in the fire.

The parable of talents is very telling. It shows the rapture, second coming and the millennial kingdom.

Rapture = enter into the joy of the Lord
Matthew 25:19-23
After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. (20) “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ (21) His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ (22) He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ (23) His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

Second Coming = Son of man coming in all His glory
Matthew 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Millennium = enter into the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world
Matthew 25:34
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Sorry, there's no mention of a resurrection of dead unbelievers and no judgment at the great white throne here.

Cheers

iamlamad · Mar 18, 2014

Echolipse said:
Anyone else want to know where this is written?

Both Daniel and John told us that God has given the Beast of Rev. 13 AUTHORITY to overcome the saints. For all you that imagine the church will go through the days of great tribulation, you really need to read and understand these verses: believers left behind or new believers WILL BE OVERCOME. It is written. It will be impossible to have faith for God to help you survive: HIS WILL is that believers will be OVERCOME.

LAMAD

Bible2 · Mar 19, 2014

shturt678s said in post 81:

Matt.24:31 = Jn.5:28, 29 all, everyone, ie, the good and the bad raise for the final public judment at the end of time without "1" or "2" raptures before this time.

Note that Matthew 24:31 doesn't include everyone, but only "his elect".

His elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

shturt678s said in post 81:

Matt.24:31 = Jn.5:28, 29 all, everyone, ie, the good and the bad raise for the final public judment at the end of time without "1" or "2" raptures before this time.

Regarding John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John there will be two (still-unfulfilled) bodily resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future bodily resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the first and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the first resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5) might be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

shturt678s said in post 81:

Matt.24:31 = Jn.5:28, 29 all, everyone, ie, the good and the bad raise for the final public judment at the end of time without "1" or "2" raptures before this time.

Regarding "the final public judgment", when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

shturt678s said in post 81:

btw heard of a "3" rapture only recently, ie, only "1" in light of IThess.4:14-17.

Regarding "only '1' in light of IThess.4:14-17", that's right, in the sense that Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Bible2 · Mar 19, 2014

rollinTHUNDER said in post 83:

His disciples were asking him for the sign of His coming, and the end of the age. Not the end of the next age or the millennial age, but the same age of grace that we are still living in today.

While the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them the end of the age would occur at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c) that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

Also, regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For (again) the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 83:

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In Revelation 11:18, "them which destroy the earth" doesn't have to include every unsaved person, but can refer to the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire, who will destroy the cities of the earth right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2-21).

Similarly, Luke 17:27,29 and Matthew 24:39 don't mean all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39 the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

The 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before its temporal (not its eternal) judgment (cf. Ezekiel 16:53-56), so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming, temporal (not the eternal) judgment of the unsaved world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 83:

The parable of talents is very telling.

The talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of the individuals in the church by their individual works, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient individuals in the church entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient believers losing their salvation at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift forever in outer space.

Bible2 · Mar 19, 2014

iamlamad said in post 84:

It will be impossible to have faith for God to help you survive: HIS WILL is that believers will be OVERCOME.

While at the future point of time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It's near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

Lollerskates · Mar 19, 2014

iamlamad said:
It is NOT an if! It is written! If you CHOOSE against His will) to be left behind, certainly God will honor that and you WILL be left behind.

But is that WISE? You would certainly be "overcome." It is written.

Lamad

Nowhere is it written that Christ will come back in a secret scoop-up, take some or all the righteous, leave everyone else to go through the tribulation, then come back and destroy everything with the raptured saints at the end. Nowhere. You have not shown me anything that even comes close to that. The only thing I have seen is 1 Thess 4. I know that chapter well because I used to believe that confirmed a rapture. But, then you read the Greek, and then you read the context. And then you remember that nowhere in the bible does it talk about Christ intermediate coming. The disciples in Matthew 24 asked Him about His coming, and the end of the world. They knew Christ was not going to come secretly, go back, and then come back a third time. They knew He was there with them at that time (1), and He would come at the end of the world (2).

I really don't want you to be surprised when the rapture doesn't happen.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 6:9-11

There will be righteous on earth during the fifth seal, and afterward (as they will suffer just like their fellowservents - killed.)

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:4-7

Why are there saints (nonspecific quantity) still here when the Beast is on the scene? Why aren't they raptured? If they were the 144,000, the bible would be specific about that as it was when it listed them several times. Lets parallel that with Daniel 11:30-35

For the ships of Kittim shall come against him; therefore, he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant; so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them who forsake the holy covenant.

And forces {arms} shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries; but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

And they who understand among the people shall instruct many; yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help; but many shall cling to them with flatteries.

And some of them of understanding shall fall, to test them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end, because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 11-12 is during the end. It states that several times. It has not happened yet. No one is getting raptured. The bible is very clear about that; God is going to give His people help, and they are going to do exploits, but they will be in the thick of the "tribulation" and "great[er] tribulation." He is not removing some to be safe from all of the bad stuff because as was prophecied in Daniel 11:35, it is to try us, purge us, and make us white. That is some reasons why God never "removed/raptured" any of His people from dangers and the end of the world (as they knew it.) It didn't happen to Adam when he downgraded himself and the entire human race to be from Sons of God because he sinned. It didn't happen when the world ended with Noah. It didn't happen when the Hebrews were leaving Egypt while all the plagues and disasters were going on around them. He gave them all tools and they did exploits (fathering an entire planet of humans, building an ocean liner, parting seas...)

I am not going against His will if the rapture was never His will to begin with. Nowhere does it say Christ will rapture us, then come back and take care of the rest. We will have to endure. I fear Christianity has forgotten this life isn't about happiness and blue skies. If you get that, that is a treat. But, we are at war. You may be able to enjoy some luxuries of war like good health, and freedom from prisons or torture. But there are people dying horrible deaths, being imprisoned, tortured, etc. for their faith today. We will be tried. Some of us will die. No one is getting raptured, though, until Christ comes back His second, and final time.

The seven feasts Hebrews celebrate forshadows Christ coming, and the time period of His arrival. He died on Passover. The fiftieth week after that Sabbath was pentacost, when the disciples got holy spirit and spoke in tongues/languages. Sukkot is the wedding ceremony yet to be fulfilled by Him - happening in the fall (so we have the general idea down to the month and day of when Christ will be back.) But Trumpets and Atonement (also not fulfilled) are not about Christ coming back at all. They are a warning and mourning holy day/time which foreshadows His coming. But Christ came once to be the sacrifice (Passover,) and He will be back once more to marry the bride/Church (Sukkot.) It is literally already written in the stars.

Echolipse · Mar 19, 2014

Lollerskates said:
Nowhere is it written that Christ will come back in a secret scoop-up, take some or all the righteous, leave everyone else to go through the tribulation, then come back and destroy everything with the raptured saints at the end. Nowhere. You have not shown me anything that even comes close to that. The only thing I have seen is 1 Thess 4. I know that chapter well because I used to believe that confirmed a rapture. But, then you read the Greek, and then you read the context. And then you remember that nowhere in the bible does it talk about Christ intermediate coming. The disciples in Matthew 24 asked Him about His coming, and the end of the world. They knew Christ was not going to come secretly, go back, and then come back a third time. They knew He was there with them at that time (1), and He would come at the end of the world (2).

I really don't want you to be surprised when the rapture doesn't happen.

Thank you, THAT'S what I was trying to get at. Worded it perfectly.

iamlamad · Mar 19, 2014

Lollerskates said:
Nowhere is it written that Christ will come back in a secret scoop-up, take some or all the righteous, leave everyone else to go through the tribulation, then come back and destroy everything with the raptured saints at the end. Nowhere. You have not shown me anything that even comes close to that. The only thing I have seen is 1 Thess 4. I know that chapter well because I used to believe that confirmed a rapture. But, then you read the Greek, and then you read the context. And then you remember that nowhere in the bible does it talk about Christ intermediate coming. The disciples in Matthew 24 asked Him about His coming, and the end of the world. They knew Christ was not going to come secretly, go back, and then come back a third time. They knew He was there with them at that time (1), and He would come at the end of the world (2).

I really don't want you to be surprised when the rapture doesn't happen.

Revelation 6:9-11

There will be righteous on earth during the fifth seal, and afterward (as they will suffer just like their fellowservents - killed.)

Revelation 13:4-7

Why are there saints (nonspecific quantity) still here when the Beast is on the scene? Why aren't they raptured? If they were the 144,000, the bible would be specific about that as it was when it listed them several times. Lets parallel that with Daniel 11:30-35

Daniel 11-12 is during the end. It states that several times. It has not happened yet. No one is getting raptured. The bible is very clear about that; God is going to give His people help, and they are going to do exploits, but they will be in the thick of the "tribulation" and "great[er] tribulation." He is not removing some to be safe from all of the bad stuff because as was prophecied in Daniel 11:35, it is to try us, purge us, and make us white. That is some reasons why God never "removed/raptured" any of His people from dangers and the end of the world (as they knew it.) It didn't happen to Adam when he downgraded himself and the entire human race to be from Sons of God because he sinned. It didn't happen when the world ended with Noah. It didn't happen when the Hebrews were leaving Egypt while all the plagues and disasters were going on around them. He gave them all tools and they did exploits (fathering an entire planet of humans, building an ocean liner, parting seas...)

I am not going against His will if the rapture was never His will to begin with. Nowhere does it say Christ will rapture us, then come back and take care of the rest. We will have to endure. I fear Christianity has forgotten this life isn't about happiness and blue skies. If you get that, that is a treat. But, we are at war. You may be able to enjoy some luxuries of war like good health, and freedom from prisons or torture. But there are people dying horrible deaths, being imprisoned, tortured, etc. for their faith today. We will be tried. Some of us will die. No one is getting raptured, though, until Christ comes back His second, and final time.

The seven feasts Hebrews celebrate forshadows Christ coming, and the time period of His arrival. He died on Passover. The fiftieth week after that Sabbath was pentacost, when the disciples got holy spirit and spoke in tongues/languages. Sukkot is the wedding ceremony yet to be fulfilled by Him - happening in the fall (so we have the general idea down to the month and day of when Christ will be back.) But Trumpets and Atonement (also not fulfilled) are not about Christ coming back at all. They are a warning and mourning holy day/time which foreshadows His coming. But Christ came once to be the sacrifice (Passover,) and He will be back once more to marry the bride/Church (Sukkot.) It is literally already written in the stars.

You really don't know much about John's chronology and timing.

Start with the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 & 5. Unless you understand this part of the vision, you will not understand the seals.

Find the answers to these three questions: GOD asked me these questions - so they originated with Him.

1. Why was Jesus not seen immediately at the right hand of the Father? There are a dozen verses that tell us that is where He went. Stephen SAW Him there.

2. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4? Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended.

3. Why was "no man found" in the search for one worthy to break the seals in the first search John got to watch end in failure to find someone?

When you can answer these questions, you will find your theories will need adjustment!

WHO SAID Paul's rapture would be a "secret" rapture? Did Paul use the word "secret?" Have you understand the timing Paul gave us for HIS rapture? I don't believe it will be "secret." Paul gives us SOUND....did you forget about the shout and the trumpet blast? Will Jesus be SEEN? Paul did not answer this question....He may remain hidden in the clouds. Will those caught up be seen? We can only guess. In Matthew 27 when the elders of the Old Covenant rose (when Jesus rose) THEY WERE SEEN. It is my guess that we WILL be seen.

As a side thought: did you notice that when those elders were caught up, there was a great earthquake? "The earth did quake....and the graves were opened..." Did you notice there was a great earthquake when the two witnesses were called up? God is telling us that when dead people are resurrected to their NEW resurrection bodies, it will cause an earthquake! Consider some of the first Christians: the atoms that once made up their bodies may be scattered miles from where they were buried or where they were fed to lions. Some may be very deep in the ground. But in one split second, all atoms (or perhaps on the Quark level) will all fly together and form that body again.

THIS WILL CAUSE AN EARTHQUAKE! This earthquake when the dead in Christ rise will give us the TIMING of the rapture in Revelation. WHERE is the first earthquake? It is at the 6th seal. Did you not understand that the 5th seal are CHURCH AGE martyrs? Stephen was one of the first. If they were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they had only to wait 7 years. But Stephen for example and NO IDEA how long the church age would last. ONLY GOD the Father knows that. The answer given to them is a strong HINT to the timing of the rapture. Do you understand the intent of the author in the answer given to them?

Consider the 144,000. If they were born again at the time of the rapture, THEY would be taken. Yet, they were not. It is my guess that they SEE the rapture and realize that Jesus IS their Messiah, and turn to Him at that moment, too late for the rapture, but in time to be sealed.

So WHERE is the rapture in Revelation? John DID NOT SEE IT, so it is not there. However, John did see the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7. So the actual rapture came just before that. FIND THE EARTHQUAKE and you have found the rapture. Also note Paul said "sudden destruction" for those left behind - and at the same moment there will be a great earthquake. It is not difficult to understand that earthquake IS PAUL'S "sudden destruction." Do you see how close John and Paul are? It is as if each knew what the other wrote. However, Revelation was written long after Paul was dead.

You really CAN believe 1 Thes. It is written in the same bible as John 3:16 is written.

Next, have you actually READ Rev. 19 where Jesus RETURNS? That is when He returns WITH His saints. Did you not notice that He returns to the battle of Armageddon? Don't you believe what you read? It is God's word!!

nowhere in the bible does it talk about Christ intermediate coming.

OF COURSE it does: in 1 Thes. 4 and 2 Thes. 2. You are just not seeing the intent of the Author. Take for example the marriage and supper. WHY do you not believe John when He says it is TIME? That marriage takes place right there IN HEAVEN when John mentions it. Then the supper comes after, ALSO in heaven. Posttribbers want desperately to MOVE that marriage and supper to earth - but that is NOT WHAT JOHN WROTE. NO Jew would have a marriage supper before the marriage. No, it is very clear, these events take place RIGHT WHERE JOHN WROTE THEM....IN HEAVEN. Then, AFTER the marriage, Jesus gets on His white horse and descends. So you tell me: HOW will you attend this wedding? HOW Will you get to heaven to attend the marriage supper?

They knew Christ was not going to come secretly, go back, and then come back a third time.

How silly can you be? THEY KNEW NOTHING OF THE CHURCH AGE! I am not sure even JESUS knew before He died that Paul would begin a GENTILE church that would go for 2000 years. They asked about the end of THEIR age - the Old Testament age they were living in. And Jesus ANSWERED them about the end of THEIR age....the 70th week of Daniel. That is the last 7 years before the Millennial Kingdom begins. This is PROVEN because Jesus quotes Daniel about the abomination.

I really don't want you to be surprised when the rapture doesn't happen.

This is even MORE SILLY than your previous statement. Why do you not believe Paul? It is written - yet you do not believe it. If you cannot believe Paul, how can you believe John 3:16?

Why are there saints (nonspecific quantity) still here when the Beast is on the scene? Why aren't they raptured?

I am amazed at your questions. Did you overlook what John wrote about LUKEWARM? There will be many believers LEFT BEHIND. And immediately following the rapture they will realize their mistake and turn with their whole heart to Jesus. Then they will lead others to Him. Do you imagine the angels flying with the everlasting gospel (Rev. 14) will not get ANY to believe and turn to God? OF COURSE there will be believers on earth during the 70th week. But they will NOT be the believers that are raptured.

Do you understand, there will be a big difference between "rapture ready" and just "born again?" There are many believers that are LUKEWARM. There are other truly born again people that are lukewarm. Others are living IN SIN with no repentance. Others are OUTSIDE His will for their life. You may THINK these are rapture ready - but I don't think so. I think the parable of the ten virgins tells us this: many lukewarm will want to get filled up with OIL (The Holy Spirit) but it will be TOO LATE and the door (rapture) will be shut. Are YOU "spirit filled?" Does your definition of spirit filled agree with the scriptures? There are SO MANY that believe they are spirit filled and TOTALLY IGNORE Acts 1 and 2 and 8 and 10 and 19. They only imagine they are spirit filled. Yet, this parable of the ten virgins is speaking of OIL for their lamps. This is symbolic for the Holy Spirit. ALL get the Holy Spirit as the seal of their born again walk, but AFTER that, God commands all to become FILLED with the Holy Spirit. Luke (in Acts) called this the mighty "baptism with the Holy Spirit." SO Jesus is telling us that all believers who IGNORE this filling of the Holy Spirit as shown in Acts 1 and 2, ARE NOT QUALIFIED FOR THE RAPTURE AND ARE NOT RAPTURE READY.

Daniel 11-12 is during the end. It states that several times. It has not happened yet. No one is getting raptured.

WHY do you continually CONFUSE the church with ISRAEL? Your doctrine will ALWAYS be messed up until you understand the difference. Daniel was a JEW and His book is about JEWS and Israel. Why would you even THINK you would find the Gentile church back in Daniel?

You have a LOT of studying to do! But then, NO ONE has arrived yet.

LAMAD

Codger · Mar 19, 2014

SAAN said:
Matthew 24:29-31
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I know many are so fixed on being gone due to a pre-trib rapture, but have most stopped and given a thought on, what if they are wrong and we are meant to go through the tribulation?

God protected his people from the plagues in Egypt, so do you think he cant do the same during the tribulation as well?

Would you actually be willing to be beheaded for your faith in Christ?

Would you take the Mark of the Beast, if it stopped your children and family of dying from starvation in front of your own eyes?

Im not saying there wont be a pre-trib and a post-trib rapture is a must, but scriptures when read in context point to Jesus coming back after the tribulation for his followers, so if we are to go through the Great Tribulation are you prepared???

https://shoebat.com/2014/03/15/muslims-force-young-christian-girls-watch-mother-get-beheaded/

So when will the great tribulation take place? The facts tell us we have been in it for about 2,000 years. Look at the bell curve below. It increases with the population. In Jesus' day the world population was 200 million. Today it is over 7 billion. That's about 35 times as many.

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/wct_martyrs_extract.pdf

iamlamad · Mar 19, 2014

Codger said:
https://shoebat.com/2014/03/15/muslims-force-young-christian-girls-watch-mother-get-beheaded/

So when will the great tribulation take place? The facts tell us we have been in it for about 2,000 years. Look at the bell curve below. It increases with the population. In Jesus' day the world population was 200 million. Today it is over 7 billion. That's about 35 times as many.

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/wct_martyrs_extract.pdf

What does world population or a bell curve have to do with the days of GT that Jesus spoke of?

In fact, it seems you don't know the difference between normal church age tribulation and the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of. Did you not understand that the days Jesus spoke of will be LESS THAN 42 months duration? Did you not understand that they will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet of Rev. 13?

They are, of course, still in our future. The beast cannot show up until the One Restraining him is taken out of the way.....and that speaks of Paul's rapture. THAT event must come first, before the Beast can be revealed.

Lamad

iamlamad · Mar 19, 2014

SAAN said:
Matthew 24:29-31
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I know many are so fixed on being gone due to a pre-trib rapture, but have most stopped and given a thought on, what if they are wrong and we are meant to go through the tribulation?

God protected his people from the plagues in Egypt, so do you think he cant do the same during the tribulation as well?

Would you actually be willing to be beheaded for your faith in Christ?

Would you take the Mark of the Beast, if it stopped your children and family of dying from starvation in front of your own eyes?

Im not saying there wont be a pre-trib and a post-trib rapture is a must, but scriptures when read in context point to Jesus coming back after the tribulation for his followers, so if we are to go through the Great Tribulation are you prepared???

You raise good questions, but ONLY for those who will be left behind at Paul's pretrib rapture. It is quite probable that many will give up their faith and accept the mark and be doomed.

Since you seem to believe in a posttrib rapture, please show us a verse that caused you to come to that conclusion? Are you believing this based on Matthew 24? If so, how do you know this gathering is Paul's rapture? Did you not understand that Paul's rapture will come from the earth, while this gathering comes from heaven? Do you see a little problem there?

The truth is, Matt. 24 is not speaking to the Gentile Church at all, but to the Jews about the end of THEIR age. This gathering is not Paul's rapture at all.

LAMAD

John S · Mar 19, 2014

iamlamad said:
What does world population or a bell curve have to do with the days of GT that Jesus spoke of?

In fact, it seems you don't know the difference between normal church age tribulation and the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of. Did you not understand that the days Jesus spoke of will be LESS THAN 42 months duration? Did you not understand that they will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet of Rev. 13?

They are, of course, still in our future. The beast cannot show up until the One Restraining him is taken out of the way.....and that speaks of Paul's rapture. THAT event must come first, before the Beast can be revealed.

Lamad

It truly is amazing how you are ALWAYS condescending and ALWAYS wrong.

iamlamad · Mar 19, 2014

John S said:
It truly is amazing how you are ALWAYS condescending and ALWAYS wrong.

I am just quoting Paul. HE is the one that wrote that the one restraining must be "taken out of the way" before the man of sin will be revealed. If you don't believe Paul, there is little help for you. The HOLY SPIRIT was behind what Paul wrote.

Jesus is the one who said "those days" of "great tribulation" HE spoke of would be worse than any time before or after. If you cannot believe Jesus, you are in serious trouble!

LAMAD

rollinTHUNDER · Mar 19, 2014

Bible2 said:
While the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them the end of the age would occur at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c) that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

I agree with you that Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but disagree that it is also the second coming as well.

Also, regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For (again) the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

In Revelation 11:18, "them which destroy the earth" doesn't have to include every unsaved person, but can refer to the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire, who will destroy the cities of the earth right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2-21).

Similarly, Luke 17:27,29 and Matthew 24:39 don't mean all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39 the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

The 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before its temporal (not its eternal) judgment (cf. Ezekiel 16:53-56), so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming, temporal (not the eternal) judgment of the unsaved world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

The talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of the individuals in the church by their individual works, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient individuals in the church entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient believers losing their salvation at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift forever in outer space.

I understand that you post-tribbers think Matt. 24:29-31 is both, the rapture and second coming. Maybe this is why you think you can skip the parables? But you don't seem to realize that you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is why your theory is incomplete, incorrect and has holes.

I agree that Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but it is not the second coming. Read the parables and learn to interpret them correctly. You don't have to ignore them or be intimidated by them. Once you understand them correctly, you'll know that those who are ready when He comes will go in the rapture and also to the wedding supper. They don't return immediately with Christ for the second coming. Take a good look at this parable and learn, or you can ignore it and leave holes in your theory.

Luke 12:35-48
Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now let me leave you with a few questions. But don't worry, it's an open book test.

(1) Did the servants who were ready get to attend the wedding supper and be served by the Lord, Himself?

(2) What happened to the servant that was not aware of His Lord's coming? (hint: end of verse 46)

(3) Will that servant be beat with many stripes (vs. 47), or will he be beaten with few (vs. 48)? Why?

Bible2 · Mar 20, 2014

iamlamad said in post 90:

However, John did see the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7.

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Regarding the rapture, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

iamlamad said in post 90:

They asked about the end of THEIR age - the Old Testament age they were living in. And Jesus ANSWERED them about the end of THEIR age....the 70th week of Daniel.

Note that no scripture says or requires that the 70 weeks (Daniel 9:24) are for the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

iamlamad said in post 90:

There will be many believers LEFT BEHIND

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

iamlamad said in post 90:

WHY do you continually CONFUSE the church with ISRAEL?

Note that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into and he will receive an answer from God if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22) without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, the book of James was addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which was the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

*******

iamlamad said in post 92:

The beast cannot show up until the One Restraining him is taken out of the way.....and that speaks of Paul's rapture.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit (as is sometimes claimed), because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

iamlamad said in post 92:

THAT event must come first, before the Beast can be revealed.

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1) when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30) but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

*******

iamlamad said in post 93:

You raise good questions, but ONLY for those who will be left behind at Paul's pretrib rapture.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 93:

The truth is, Matt. 24 is not speaking to the Gentile Church at all, but to the Jews about the end of THEIR age.

The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation of the earth during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he's letting them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

iamlamad · Mar 20, 2014

rollinTHUNDER said:
I understand that you post-tribbers think Matt. 24:29-31 is both, the rapture and second coming. Maybe this is why you think you can skip the parables? But you don't seem to realize that you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is why your theory is incomplete, incorrect and has holes.

I agree that Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but it is not the second coming. Read the parables and learn to interpret them correctly. You don't have to ignore them or be intimidated by them. Once you understand them correctly, you'll know that those who are ready when He comes will go in the rapture and also to the wedding supper. They don't return immediately with Christ for the second coming. Take a good look at this parable and learn, or you can ignore it and leave holes in your theory.

Luke 12:35-48
Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now let me leave you with a few questions. But don't worry, it's an open book test.

(1) Did the servants who were ready get to attend the wedding supper and be served by the Lord, Himself?

(2) What happened to the servant that was not aware of His Lord's coming? (hint: end of verse 46)

(3) Will that servant be beat with many stripes (vs. 47), or will he be beaten with few (vs. 48)? Why?

When or where, in your theory, is the rapture in Revelation in respect to the seals, trumpets and vials, and when in respect to Matthew 24?

When is His coming on the white horse in relation to the seals, the trumpets, and the vials?

LAMAD

zeke37 · Mar 23, 2014

rollinTHUNDER said:
I understand that you post-tribbers think Matt. 24:29-31 is both, the rapture and second coming. Maybe this is why you think you can skip the parables? But you don't seem to realize that you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is why your theory is incomplete, incorrect and has holes.

believing that both are covered, does not mean the post trib "theory" is wrong

the parables are ONLY understood as such. Can't be pretrib

I agree that Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but it is not the second coming.

sure it is
the Lord Comes From Heaven, with His angels, His elect from heaven
and gathers together the elect on earth...
trumpet, elect gathered...Lord from Heaven...etc..

what about that is NOT the 2nd Coming?

Read the parables and learn to interpret them correctly. You don't have to ignore them or be intimidated by them. Once you understand them correctly, you'll know that those who are ready when He comes will go in the rapture and also to the wedding supper.

so?
the "rapture" is at His 2nd Coming, which is when the wedding feast is
the wedding feast is here on earth and it's menu is the bad guys...

They don't return immediately with Christ for the second coming.

what do you mean "return"?
they don't "go" anywhere.
they wait here, working, and are blessed when He Comes
and gathered together with those Christ brings from heaven (the righteous dead)

Take a good look at this parable and learn, or you can ignore it and leave holes in your theory.

i think you've mixed it up.

Luke 12:35-48
Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

this just means to be ready...working for Him always.
it does not imply pre trib rapture

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

of course, from my post trib perspective,
the ones not watching are fooled pre tribbers and the like....
the ones watching are the post tribbers....

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

you guys expect Him to come in the first watch
but He'll come late in the game, not early.

the watch refers to the time of day...8 hour blocks bsically
3 watches, so the day is divided by 3

likened to the fact that He cometh at a time that no man knoweth...
which refers to the sighting of the new moon on the true feast of trumpets
when it is fulfilled with Christ's 2nd Coming

hence the need for 2 witnesses, white garments, the wedding feast
and a lot of other "symbology" in relating to Christ's return.

Christ's Coming is a fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets.

Learn about the Fall feasts of the Lord,
and you have your outline to understanding Christ's return

personally,
i believe we are gathered to Christ at the 7th trumpet,
ie the very beginning of "some years" Feast of Trumpets.
and i don't see 7 years nor 3.5, between the Feasts of Trumpets and Atonement

a literal 10 days, that can be argued i guess...but not years.

the church is here for it all, no early departure.

and when we are gathered,
we are not taken off of the planet to "return" later.
that's fantasy...
you've misunderstood a few things to get you to that confusion.

we remain here and the Lord Comes here with the righteous dead.
and gathers us all together with Him...here forever...

being a former pre tribber,
i've heard all the pre trib theories before...
they are ALL wanting. every pre trib theory is wrong.
no one leaves the planet, unless you die,
and no one goes to heaven at the rapture period.
you can't find it in the bible. you only assume it.

the raptured, are raptured right here on earth,
to Christ, who is right here on earth.

Mat24 shows this (as we were originally discussing)
1Thes4 shows this same order...
(righteous dead leaving heaven with Christ, and Coming here to be raised
and gathered together with those of us "elect" who are alive at that time)

same with 1Cor15...same events...
dead raised, and we are changed.

same with Rev 19/20's order of events...

the wedding feast is on earth at His Coming, at Rev19's end.
the declaration that the bride is ready, is made in Rev19's beginning
and in Rev19 the bride is JUST BEEN described as many waters. (see Rev17:15 for who they are)

so what Rev19 shows is that the heavens declare the Time is Come...
meaning that the Bride (on earth) is now ready to be wed.
the 2nd Coming can happen...can begin...
ALL enemies on earth are at His Feet, and all the elect on earth are ready

the rapture and the 2nd Coming are at the same time

on your mark, get set, go...

and we see Christ leave heaven with the armies of heaven
(the righteous dead/angels)
still having the wrath of God with Him
(ie, the trib is NOT the wrath of GOD)

They come here to earth to collect/gather the bride
and to defeat God's enemies which is described in Rev19's Supper

note what the symbolic "menu" is for that Great Supper of God.
that's the wedding FEAST...it's obviously on earth....

and Rev20 immediately shows the "raptured" and "righteous dead"
gathered together and included in the first Resurrection,
as the new Millennial rulers

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

now, since there is no pre trib rapture at all,
it seems to me, during the trib, that a post tribber will be watching...
eagerly waiting for the Lord's Coming...
that servant knows the season...and is working for the Lord...
while a pre tribber, thinking they will never see the trib, will be asleep
and not concious of the "times and seasons", nor their enemy

again, the no man knoweth the hour,
is referring to the sighting of the new moon
that begins the Feast of Trumpets
the year the Lord returns to fulfil it

(that's how the bible reckons time...
the months begin by sighting the new moon)

the feast of Trumpets is the ONLY feast that is on a NEW moon
so this is telling us that
you can only see His Coming, if you are watching for it

and just like how in the bible, when the new moon (month) was sighted,
there needs to be two witnesses to announce it to the Temple.

that is the exact tie in to the 2 witnesses of Rev
declaring HIS Coming...
to declare that they have seen Him...

incedentally, Rev1-3 defines the 7 candlesticks as churches
and further defines 2 candlesticks as part of the two witnesses.

there's no pre trib rapture...no mid trib rapture...
it's post trib...which is pre wrath too.

the trib is NOT the wrath of God...
the wrath of God follows the trib...

the good guys are gathered to Christ before the wrath of God is released,
but we still stay here on earth...
we are not removed from the planet for a time....

i had thought that the wrath of God would only last a few minutes
all 7 vials bottled up and released at once...

but it's probable that the wrath of God is the 10 days of Awe
which is in between Trumpets and Atonement
so, maybe we are "removed" 10 days before the wrath ends
but not off of the planet and not pre trib.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now let me leave you with a few questions. But don't worry, it's an open book test.

(1) Did the servants who were ready get to attend the wedding supper and be served by the Lord, Himself?

if u are ready, u get to attend when it's time
but "served by the Lord Himself" is not mentioned there
nor is any time frame that would have you think this is pre trib.
.

(2) What happened to the servant that was not aware of His Lord's coming? (hint: end of verse 46)

it depends on whether he was innocently ignorant, or willingly so
it doesn't say that wrath will be the 2nd death...
but they get stripes...stripes are NOT meant to KILL, but as punishment
see Ez44 for more of what happens to those that are believers but not elect.

(3) Will that servant be beat with many stripes (vs. 47), or will he be beaten with few (vs. 48)? Why?

what it doesn't say is
unbelievers and those not watching will go to hell and burn
so maybe redefining what the "punishment" is to our asleep brethren
is something that we should all do...
because certainly some of us will fall into that category at His Coming

some of us will be asleep during the tribulation,
and not even know the season,
thus not be watching for Him

but some of us will be fully awake during the trib,
the time when God NEEDS you to witness the truth to others.
those will be "working" for the Lord, doing so to speak
not "taken" in the flood like those sleeping...

the sad thing is most pre tribbers think they'll be "taken"...lol.

shturt678s · Mar 23, 2014

rollinTHUNDER said:
I understand that you post-tribbers think Matt. 24:29-31 is both, the rapture and second coming.

Matt.24:29, etc. = The whole siderial world shall collapse = Rev.6:12-17 = 20:7-15 = 19:11-21

or will it be hot?

Maybe this is why you think you can skip the parables? But you don't seem to realize that you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is why your theory is incomplete, incorrect and has holes.

I agree that Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but it is not the second coming. Read the parables and learn to interpret them correctly. You don't have to ignore them or be intimidated by them. Once you understand them correctly, you'll know that those who are ready when He comes will go in the rapture and also to the wedding supper. They don't return immediately with Christ for the second coming. Take a good look at this parable and learn, or you can ignore it and leave holes in your theory.

Luke 12:35-48
Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now let me leave you with a few questions. But don't worry, it's an open book test.

(1) Did the servants who were ready get to attend the wedding supper and be served by the Lord, Himself?

(2) What happened to the servant that was not aware of His Lord's coming? (hint: end of verse 46)

(3) Will that servant be beat with many stripes (vs. 47), or will he be beaten with few (vs. 48)? Why?

Old Amill, "Nowist" Jack

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